An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[Felix Florimon]

When Jesus and Heavens take our words and actions into consideration, God does not really pay attention to the labels used by ourselves to name each other. God is really seeking people that would be guided by Him to establish and further enhance His kingdom here on Earth; this is people that could fulfill God's expectation: "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24).

Now if we take Jesus' words into consideration when He stated: “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these” (Matthew 19:14), we could easily conclude that those words literally mean that if the birth rate of children that could be susceptible of accepting Jesus as their personal savior drops to zero then the entire world will fall under the hands of the Devil regardless on which side of the WO we stand on.

Therefore, we need to pay close attention to how many children born to families in which one or both parents are SDA continue, for the rest of their lives, to keep alive and well the "spiritual culture" of having their lives being guided by teachings of our Lord Jesus while, on a daily basis, seeking to worship God in spirit and truth.

Personally, I feel that the WO issue will surely become something unstoppable within the SDA Church if single head households in the entire world becomes as prominent as it is in Germany (http://www.directionsmag.com/articles/ne...-germany/226850), Australia (http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/marie-clai...ing-households/), and California (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/23/local/la-me-0623-census-marriage-families-20110623).

Also, leaders and members of the SDA church will not be able to tackle this issue in a way that is fully acceptable to God if, at the individual level (regardless on which side of the WO issue we find ourselves in, we don't have an inner commitment and ability to teach by word and example to the rest of the world how to have happy families made up of a dad, a mom and emotionally healthy kids who have a very friendly attitude to Jesus' role in our personal lives and to God's Ten Commandments as we find them in Exodus 20.

FF

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Now if we take Jesus' words into consideration when He stated: “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these” (Matthew 19:14), we could easily conclude that those words literally mean that if the birth rate of children that could be susceptible of accepting Jesus as their personal savior drops to zero then the entire world will fall under the hands of the Devil regardless on which side of the WO we stand on.

What in the world are you talking about??

"Easily conclude"...in what state of mind??

Quote:

Therefore, we need to pay close attention to how many children born to families in which one or both parents are SDA continue, for the rest of their lives, to keep alive and well the "spiritual culture"....

Is this some new philosophy you are preaching?

[Felix Florimon]

Is this some new philosophy you are preaching?

Sorry... I was thinking that this was the same old way of thinking of having us with our families being saved when we accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior. Otherwise, could you please elaborate regarding the "old" or current "philosophy" of how to approach the issue of salvation that we need to stick to?

FF

[Alchemy]

If I understand you correctly Felix, I agree we need strong, spiritually healthy families to raise our children in.

The problem really starts with the parents NOT being strong, spiritually healthy Christians themselves. This is one reason why WOPE gains so much political traction.

So, what do you believe the answer to this problem to be?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

.... if the birth rate of children that could be susceptible of accepting Jesus as their personal savior drops to zero then the entire world will fall under the hands of the Devil.....

Have no idea as to what you are trying to say!

Quote:

.....salvation that we need to stick to?

Simple, spoken of may times in the NT.....'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ'!

Since this Forum is about WO, lets no sidetrack it!!!

[Felix Florimon]

If I understand you correctly Felix, I agree we need strong, spiritually healthy families to raise our children in.

The problem really starts with the parents NOT being strong, spiritually healthy Christians themselves. This is one reason why WOPE gains so much political traction.

So, what do you believe the answer to this problem to be?

I feel that the best way to tackle this issue by teaching through example and when this cannot be done (the Apostle Paul was single) through words that are consistent with biblical teachings.

The requirements for the election ecclesiastical church leaders was put in writing by the Apostle Paul, according to some sources during 63-64 AD (http://executableoutlines.com/1ti/1ti_00.htm) in a letter to Timothy. In this document Paul wrote the following:

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover, he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil" (1 Timothy 3:2-7). As long as the majority of Christians were highly familiar with the words of the Apostle Paul and as long as the majority of households were made up husband, wife and children there was not any felt any real need regarding woman ordination because in society at large men were considered responsible to be the primary breadwinner and women primarily had a supportive role in the household.

Moreover (168 years ago), in 1844, the US Supreme Court upheld a law which stated that all public schools across America were obligated to teach the Bible in order to receive public funding (http://www.truthmagazine.com/the-bible-and-public-schools). A wider spread of the New Testament in the majority of the American people created an environment that could not be friendly to the "women ordination issue." During those years the basic standard for a complete household would be a family made up of a husband, wife and children. Since society always has some impact on the structure to the church, we tried to literally follow the advice of the Apostle Paul as he wrote it in during the beginning of Christianity. Nonetheless, the shortage of workers caused by WWII opened a wide range of high-paying jobs to women. Almost seven million women entered the workforce, including two million in heavy industry. Women as pastors in well organizes churches was not included because a 1844 Supreme Court decision encouraged a high level of a good fund of biblical knowledge within the general American population. However, the US Supreme Court reversed itself regarding the knowledge of Bible in public schools during the 1960's and subsequent years. The biblical moral encouragement to abstain from sexual behavior until people were ready to form new families began to disappear. Moreover, sexuality was switched from a pleasurable activity for family union and procreation to just pleasurable activity for the individual without the individual feeling any kind of obligation for the other person involved. This has made single headed household something more common and acceptable. The "moral glue" used by the Apostle Paul to Timothy that A bishop then must be... the husband of one wife... one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence seems to be a teaching that looks really out of place to people who did not grow up with literal biblical knowledge during their formative years and to many others who in spite of knowing the bible literal teaching regarding the subject, do not wish to give an impression of being outdated and swimming against the current political trend.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

Simple, spoken of may times in the NT.....'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ'!

Since this Forum is about WO, lets no sidetrack it!!!

Yes, but such belief is shown through actions that are consistent with Jesus' teachings and with the teachings guided by God's Spirit by those who were called to the mission of establishing the Christian Church on Earth.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

Quote:

.... if the birth rate of children that could be susceptible of accepting Jesus as their personal savior drops to zero then the entire world will fall under the hands of the Devil.....

Have no idea as to what you are trying to say!

This is what I mean

God = Jesus = Creation: People falling under the influence of God's Spirit through our Lord Jesus Christ will feel joy and happiness in doing acts of love for other people because such actions strengthen God's creation.

Ignorance of God's laws or just doing the opposite of what those laws say = Devil = seeking pleasure by either hurting and destroying God's creation. In another thread I responded to why some young men were able to gang rape a Loma Linda nursing student. They sought sexual gratification for themselves by gang raping and beating her. God's laws and Jesus' teachings were not in the minds and hearts of those young men who most likely were an end product of very dysfunctional families in which a father was not able to instill good values in them; those young men who gang raped that nursing student at Loma Linda never came across with a single SDA who would teach them about the love of Jesus on a weekly basis. The lack of Jesus in the lives of those young men delivered their minds to disregard God's laws = the Devil in their minds and they acquired the ability of finding joy and sexual personal gratification by gang raping a nursing student. Worse things are happening in Syria, Libya, Iraq: There is not open freedom to preach about Jesus in those places and many people are finding personal joy and excitation by committing acts of genocide against defenseless civilians.

This is why I am not able to feel a sense of happiness and elation within the Kingdom of Heavens regarding the Woman Ordination issue. The numbers of people going to church in order to worship God through Jesus are dropping. The numbers of new converts that stay in church for the remaining of their lives are less than the numbers of those born in the faith who keep the faith. Atheists and militant people who believe in a non biologically productive sexual gratification between individuals of the same sex are having a government sponsored monopoly regarding what is truthful about the origin of our human race in American Schools. Therefore, it is getting harder and harder to win the hearts and brains of educated people for the kingdom of God. Moreover, to make matters much worse no one in his/ her right mind will run for public office with a promise of taking out of public sale firearms designed to kill more 20 people in less than 20 minutes. The less and the less people have their behavior governed by the teachings of love of our Lord Jesus Christ the more and more individuals we will have with a behavior that is governed by disobedience or ignorance of God's laws; this will certainly generate an ever growing certainty that the entire world including the entire USA will fall under a complete dominion of God's enemy; this is the Devil.

FF

[CoAspen]

You are attempting, as many do, to mix topics/ideas that simply aren't related, excepted in perhaps a genealogical manner. The mixing an matching just ain't working...logically that is!

Adios, have fun with that!!

[olger]

Interesting thoughts Felix. Are you saying that there is a link between non-traditional homes (divorce) and the NAD push for female headship? That makes sense to me.

[Felix Florimon]

You are attempting, as many do, to mix topics/ideas that simply aren't related, excepted in perhaps a genealogical manner. The mixing an matching just ain't working...logically that is!

Adios, have fun with that!!

Your response leaves no room for me except for making the following conclusions:

1) Regarding the Women's Ordination issue, you can't see the forest for the trees, so you get so caught up in small details that you lose any ability to see how those details are related. Therefore, you end up in having not option but to fail to understand the bigger picture.

2) Your desire that the Women Ordination issue could be seen as a positive advance in the SDA Church makes you to fail to understand that such issue has become an issue in many places such as California, Germany, Australia and some other places that have decoupled sexuality from marriage and many people prefer to live alone and they don't agree with the idea sexual behavior needs to be linked with the responsibilities that is involved with marriage.

3) It does not occur to you that the SDA Church needs to learn to preach by example: This is encouraging traditional happy families made up of a husband, a wife and children where the husband is able to have some leadership role with a full and able support from his wife. This would be with the goal in mind of procreating and/ or teaching more and more individuals so they could become citizens within the Kingdom of Heavens.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

Interesting thoughts Felix. Are you saying that there is a link between non-traditional homes (divorce) and the NAD push for female headship? That makes sense to me.

There is a deeper problem. This is that our sexual behavior is closely linked to our loyalty to God's Ten Commandments. However, there is a difference between sexuality in women and sexuality in men. I have never seen in my whole life of a sexual scandal involving a 62 years old lady seeking sexual gratification with multiple males who are in their twenties or late teens. However, I have heard of sexual scandals of men in their 70's seeking sexual gratification with ladies in their late teens or early twenties. Therefore, when there is a divorce, we men, are at a disadvantage.

Now since divorce is also affecting many SDA families including pastors, a divorced male pastor (or a male pastor who is not able to get along with his wife) could generate more sexual scandals than a divorced sister from church who feels deeply committed to live up to the standards of the church. Therefore, places like California, Germany and Australia may feel a genuine need of having women pastors because our primary goal as a church should be to live up to what we preach. I personally prefer male pastors to be leading our churches, but honestly, if I have to chose from a good male preacher pastor who generates a sexual scandal with a 26 years old lady from church or a woman pastor, I would prefer much better to be member in a church led by a woman pastor as long as she is highly committed to living up to God's standards and as long as she also feels committed in being a positive force in the formation good stable traditional families within the church made up a husband, wife, kids where the husband keeps his biblical role of being the leader of the household with the full love and support of his wife.

FF

[Gordon1]

Felix, you indicate that many older male pastors are automatically scandal-prone (carnally-minded like their secular counterparts) while the younger female pastor is preferable "as long as she is highly committed..."

...but that's an unfair comparison - logically the males should be highly committed too - one can't compare carnal men with fully-converted, born-again women.

It's true as you stated, that the SDA Church must preach by example.

For this reason a woman who "feels committed in being a positive force in the formation of good stable traditional families..." will not try to lead a church as a pastor/minister.

Felix, it's hard to see how a man can be head of his home when his wife is the church pastor.

It's clear we don't want scandalous men leading the church, but the solution is not well-intentioned 26 y.o. females trailing an M.Div. certificate.

It's probable that even men should be 30 y.o. for this position...

[olger]

Pre-marital sex causes a role reversal in the girl and guy.

As a consequence, the girl becomes more aggressive, and the guy becomes more passive. This is well known in the Biblical counseling field.

G

[Gordon1]

Pre-marital sex causes a role reversal in the girl and guy.

As a consequence, the girl becomes more aggressive.

Gerry, please note the aggressive tone of girls supporting the role reversal of Women's Ordination.

[olger]

Indeed. I caught that already - not accusing anyone but - it's out there...

[Felix Florimon]

Felix, you indicate that many older male pastors are automatically scandal-prone (carnally-minded like their secular counterparts) while the younger female pastor is preferable "as long as she is highly committed..."

...but that's an unfair comparison - logically the males should be highly committed too - one can't compare carnal men with fully-converted, born-again women.

It's true as you stated, that the SDA Church must preach by example.

For this reason a woman who "feels committed in being a positive force in the formation of good stable traditional families..." will not try to lead a church as a pastor/minister.

Felix, it's hard to see how a man can be head of his home when his wife is the church pastor.

Sorry, if I gave such impression then I apologize because it was non-intentional.

My real point is that we should look at the Women Ordination issue with the same perspective that Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith looked at His work when He was here on Earth. Jesus regarded His work here on Earth as a kind of a business. He labeled it "my Father's business" (Luke 2:49 King James Version). Even John 3:16 could be considered as a business transaction in which the interest and love of the Father for this world prompted Him to give up something of value so whoever beliefs in that something of value given up by the Father (this is whoever gives a positive feedback and completes this business transaction by believing in what was given up by the Father, could begin to have an eternal relationship with Him in a God - child relationship. Matthew 13:45-46 gives us a idea of the kind of business thinking that we should have when we accept Jesus Christ in our lives.

Based on the above we, should considered the Women Ordination issue based on what is best way to complete the business transaction initiated by the Father thousands of years ago. Our primary question should be: How we are going to get more and more people gaining eternal live and having them as our friends in the New Earth? Do we wish to have 20 millions co-citizens and probable friends in the New Earth? Do we wish 40 millions? or do we wish 60 millions? Or could we ask ourselves a different question: How many billions of people we want to deny the Devil to take with him to hell? Do we wish to reduce the number of billions of humans the Devil is taking with him to 6 billions or just to 3 billions?

I feel that our job should be to make it much more expedient to God's Spirit and His Holy angels their job of getting more and more people into the kingdom of Heavens. This is why I prefer a woman spending her reproductive years having children and instilling in them love and obedience to our Creator. The love of God is only compared with the love of an emotionally healthy mother. She is the person that is best emotionally equipped to take growing children and transmit them with love and respect to the Creator. Once a woman has gone through her reproductive years, she could be a positive support to younger less experienced mothers in the job of making more and more developing young people ready for the Kingdom of Heaven and having those young people create a closer alliance with God's angels in order to lower the number of people that the Devil is taking to hell with him.

The problem that we are having is that many church leaders and members of the SDA church have forgotten the mission the church has been placed on Earth for. They wish to show secular world thinkers and leaders (who are driven by ignorance to God's laws and to His authority as our Creator) that SDAs treat their women "with the same dignity" the secular world treat their women. However, they don't ask God in prayer what is the best way to take away the indignity of self-destruction that many families and many people are doing for themselves by ignoring God's laws and ways regarding how we should have bigger, happier and more prosperous families in a spiritually and materially.

FF

[Gordon1]

Thanks Felix.

Yes the worst ill to befall the movement is 'following after the world.' But at this late point in history I'm not convinced child-bearing is God's message for His people. "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth" was a relevant command when the earth was empty, much less so today. I see little evidence that SDA parents are having children to glorify God - but rather, for the same reasons as their secular neighbours. One can't be too surprised - it's human nature & they see this example in the ministry & the Church.

[Felix Florimon]

But at this late point in history I'm not convinced child-bearing is God's message for His people. "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth" was a relevant command when the earth was empty, much less so today.

God's people have spiritual needs and social needs. People who are over forty don't feel a social need of having their own children they could live with. However, our young people who are in their twenties and early thirties need to make provisions for such need. Now, if we don't even believe in praying that the need that our young people feel of procreation could be done in a way that enhances God's kingdom then we have not choice but to observe the world converting the church instead of having the church converting the world. This is because (as time goes by) God's faithful servants will be "washed away" by natural illness and death; this will leave a way open for the church to be taken over by world savvy people who were never taught to wait on God after taking everything to Him in prayer.

FF

[Gordon1]

'Tis true Felix, all people have spiritual & social needs. Jesus and his cousin John faced these too.

I believe everyone longs for family, and I don't deny it's a strong urge in younger adults, even those of middle age and beyond.

But as you know, the world typically fulfills this need in the manner you suggest, by union/marriage and procreation.

My observation is that church members follow the exact same path, even premarital sex seems quite common.

So the world has already laid the pattern; we follow. Who can see the difference?

If you're suggesting that numbers (increased birth rate) will finish the work, I can't agree.

Only 12 consecrated men were needed to carry the first message.

Consecration trumps numbers any day, as I'm sure you'll agree.

The Vatican is big on numbers, less so on truth & fidelity.

Would we die out like the Shakers? Not likely. Time is up, and the world-savvy people are leading the way.

[Felix Florimon]

If you're suggesting that numbers (increased birth rate) will finish the work, I can't agree.

We should have a good birth rate in our young people who see their children as good candidates for the Kingdom of Heavens and who feel a God's given assurance that those children will have a good willingness and ability to co-operate with God's Holy Spirit and with God's angels in order to rescue people from Satan's grip and the power of evil. On the other hand, we should drop to zero the birth rate of Adventist couples that don't have the intention of having children that would learn to love and obey God while being a blessing and useful for improving the quality of life of all the people they need to interact with either directly or directly.

The bottom line is this: If we have children or if we don't have them, this should be done for the glory of God.

FF

[CoAspen]

Aaaaaaamazing!!!

Reality check time.

[Felix Florimon]

Aaaaaaamazing!!!

Reality check time.

I fully agree that the time has come for all of us to take a reality check time. However, Some questions come to mind:

1) Do we really believe that we have a God with the power of bringing us back from death in just a few seconds even if our bodies have disintegrated in a grave decades after our death?

2) Do we believe that is something worthwhile to share such faith with non believers so some of them may decide in favor of joining us in a journey to spend a happy non ending eternity with Jesus and God the Father where there will not be any death, illness or suffering?

3) Do we believe that there is some value in convincing future young SDA parents to feel motivated to bring children to this world that they take to take such matters to God in prayer so those children after they are born and as soon as they learn to reason, those new creatures could also learn to seek God in prayer, to obey Him and to teach non believers to do the same?

4) Do we really believe that it is consistent with what we believe to be "the reality of salvation" and that is also the right thing to do the following: a) to ask young people to avoid being in the business of procreating a new life if they don't feel a motivation to give a good guidance to the children they plan conceive? that they present such thing to God in prayer and ask Him for guidance on how to best bring up this new life in a way that brings honor to our Creator?

5) Why instead of Woman Ordination, we don't do a good planning for ordaining our thinking, prayers and behavior in such a way that every thing we think, say or do brings glory and honor to our Creator who has given us the gift of life?

FF

[Woody]

I have yet to be shown that WO is not biblical.

[Felix Florimon]

I have yet to be shown that WO is not biblical.

The real down to earth and practical issue is not whether WO is anti-biblical or not. The issue is that we believe in a Creator who has given us the gift of sexuality. Now, how we use such gift could put us in a spot where we could very easily disregard God's laws and do just the opposite of what do with such gift. You cannot decouple WO ordination from sexuality because the title of that issue itself would betray you. Moreover, our loyalty to God our Creator could be partially detected on how we handle the gift of sexuality given to us by Him. Regretfully, we are doing a very poor job in convincing our own young people to handle such gift in such a way that everything they do with it could further enhance God's kingdom in their own lives and in the lives of those they are involved with.

Prophet Jeremiah put it in this way: "If you have raced with men on foot, and they have worn you out, how can you compete with horses?" (Jeremiah 12:5). If we are having very serious difficulties in our young people and those people who are not so young regarding how to handle their gift of sexuality in a way that brings honor to the Creator of the human race, why we need to make our job much more difficult by bringing the issue of fighting for something without a clear biblical mandate such as the sexual female phenotype of people being ordained?

FF