An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[olger]

I spoke out against this issue when I saw that it was the first leg in the liberal's three-legged stool, the other two legs of which are Darwinism and the normalization of homosexuality.

Eventually I came to understand why the liberals/progressives in the church are so enthusiastic about women's ordination: because it is a popular, politically winning wedge issue they can use to liberalize the church. Most people have floated along with our cultural elites' destruction of patriarchy over the course of the last four decades, such that the emerging matriarchy now seems normal to them. That female headship should emerge in the church, as well, also seems normal to them because of the influence of the larger culture. Hence, female headship is very popular in the NAD especially with younger members who have grown up entirely in the post-patriarchal culture. The problem is that the Bible very clearly forecloses any flirtation with female headship in the church. If the clear biblical statements on male headship in the home and the church can be brushed aside to establish female headship in the church, then the clear biblical statements about sodomy and creation can also be brushed away to normalize homosexuality and some sort of theistic Darwinism.

For conservatives, this is clearly the hill to die on. I don't know of any church that adopted female headship that has come back from the brink of liberalism. To the contrary, they continue even more rapidly along the trajectory of the logic of their position. Eventually they become a pitiful byword of liberal self-destruction, like the Episcopals. I don't want the Adventist Church to go there.

g

[CoAspen]

So now we are tying sexuality into WO, we also have homosexuality being brought into the mix!!

Can someone please tell me what SEX has to do with being Called By God??

More Rdherring!!!!!!!!!

We need a 'thingy' with a fishing pole and red fish!!

[Felix Florimon]

So now we are tying sexuality into WO, we also have homosexuality being brought into the mix!!

Can someone please tell me what SEX has to do with being Called By God??

More Rdherring!!!!!!!!!

We need a 'thingy' with a fishing pole and red fish!!

How could you be sure that spirit guiding you to open such battle field and calling others to join you in that battle there is coming from God or from the enemy of God's creation? Could you explain us with few clear biblical verses and with the experience of other churches dealing with the WO in the way you prefer that Satan does not agree with what your are trying to propose regarding the WO issue?

FF

[CoAspen]

Your question ignores the one I have already asked people. Why not answer it before asking another one going in a different direction? Was my question that difficult?

[Felix Florimon]

Your question ignores the one I have already asked people. Why not answer it before asking another one going in a different direction? Was my question that difficult?

Since the beginning of sin, Satan has been making war to God's instructions on how we should establish a relationship with Him and how our relationship should among ourselves should be. Eve was deceived after answering Satan some questions made through the serpent without even asking what was Satan's real motivation in prompting her to disobey God. Jesus was aware that Satan has the ability to approach God's children and when the Pharisees came to ask Him questions that were inspired by Satan himself then Jesus responded with another question so the Pharisees could understand what kind of spirit was guiding them.

Satan has been always interested in coming up with ideas and questions that are able to open a can of worms that would eat up the mission God's wish to be accomplished in our lives. However, the Devil did not show any interest to guide the Pharisees to answer the question Jesus put to them when they came with the first question. The questions comes: Why should you imitate the Pharisees that declined to answer our Lord Jesus when he replied their question with another question?

Regarding the WO issue I feel that we should imitate Jesus replying the questions inspired by the enemy of creation, this is Satan, with other questions that are more "biblical friendly" and that guide us to get closer to God's plan of salvation.

FF

[Woody]

Quote:

Regarding the WO issue I feel that we should imitate Jesus replying the questions inspired by the enemy of creation, this is Satan, with other questions that are more "biblical friendly" and that guide us to get closer to God's plan of salvation.

Okay - I am all for WO. But for sure - I don't believe WO has anything to do with salvation. Not sure how WO or Anti-WO has anything to do with salvation. Salvation is based on the free gift that Jesus has given to each person.

[Felix Florimon]

But for sure - I don't believe WO has anything to do with salvation. Not sure how WO or Anti-WO has anything to do with salvation. Salvation is based on the free gift that Jesus has given to each person.

Your last statement is in full agreement with John 3:16. Therefore, I have no other option but to fully agree with your most recent statement. The problems is that, based on the cumulative "biblical experience" that we have acquired during the last 6,000 years, we could very easily say that the Devil is very good in hiding in details that, based on our own human perception, seem to be too insignificant. This is why I feel that it would be counterproductive for the church to jump into changes that do not have a clear biblical mandate specially when we are failing God in doing very basic matters that He has commanded us through His written word.

FF

[CoAspen]

Dancing....dancing...Houston, we have a problem!

Allegations, allegations, but never a direct answer to difficult questions.

I have read the Bible and I do not see any avoidance of your answering questions being similar to Christs question and answer sessions with any of His doubters. Surely, you are not saying my motivation for asking direct, non evasive answers to questions based on your statements as being 'devil' inspired??

Your non replies are common for persons making circular statements trying to bring various thoughts and ideas together to prove their opinion when there is a lack of coherent logic or reality.

The problem Houston, is a validity failure in the circuitry.

[Woody]

[Felix Florimon]

Dancing....dancing...Houston, we have a problem!

Allegations, allegations, but never a direct answer to difficult questions.

I have read the Bible and I do not see any avoidance of your answering questions being similar to Christs question and answer sessions with any of His doubters. Surely, you are not saying my motivation for asking direct, non evasive answers to questions based on your statements as being 'devil' inspired??

Your non replies are common for persons making circular statements trying to bring various thoughts and ideas together to prove their opinion when there is a lack of coherent logic or reality.

The problem Houston, is a validity failure in the circuitry.

What you call "circular statement" is any conclusion based on a faith that God created mankind as male and female with a given purpose but with different roles to reach such goal. Now, anyone that comes with a conclusion that is consistent with a biblical premise you feel uncomfortable with makes you shout "circular statement." Regarding the Pharisees being inspired by the Devil in order to ask Jesus "difficult questions" we know that they were inspired by the Devil because they plotted to kill Jesus and were successful in doing so. I don't see you plotting to do anything evil against anyone. However, I don't see any reason why should imitate the Pharisees in ignoring basic matters of salvation in order to push the church in a social, non spiritual agenda that has nothing to do with having more stable families and gaining more and more souls for the kingdom of heavens.

The church was created with an agenda in mind as stated in Matthew 28:18,19. If going back to the Bible in order to support such agenda and not getting out of such agenda based on what is stated in the Bible you call to be "circular statement" so be it. My private particular reasoning and your private particular reasoning should never be considered to be more important than the mission the church was established for according to what is written in Matthew 28:18,19.

If you have decided to base your conclusions based on a non-biblical perspective in order to avoid "circular statements" going back to the bible you should feel welcomed to say and do according to your best judgment but do not expect others to join you if they disagree with your opinion.

FF

[CoAspen]

Still no answer!!! You make my point!!

Thank you!!

[Felix Florimon]

Can someone please tell me what SEX has to do with being Called By God??

[CoAspen]

Avoidance, but you are getting closer.....

Quote:

I certainly hope that you really have a truthful understanding that what you are asking is just a loaded question that could never have any reasonable answer.

So you say there is no reasonable answer, most interesting, and yet you are claiming to have an answer, so what is it?

Quote:

If God created the human race as male and female, it is reasonable to expect Him to assign them different roles based on who they are and based on the best capabilities they have to perform a given mission?

That is your question, not mine!!

I will repeat my question again and I will leave out the word "SEX" since that seems to through off some people! What does Gender have to do with being called by God? Can't make it any simpler!!

[Felix Florimon]

I will repeat my question again and I will leave out the word "SEX" since that seems to through off some people! What does Gender have to do with being called by God? Can't make it any simpler!!

I am afraid that with your question, you are showing an attitude of someone who is trying very hard to fit a square peg into a round hole. The topic is about WO, it is not about feeling an inner urge or a call by God to go out and preach His word regardless if one is paid for this job or not. The issue here is how many human believers (after literally reading everything Moses and Paul said regarding choosing a congregation leader) feel that it is God's predilection for them to choose a man as a leader versus a woman?

Let me put this way of those voluntary, lay preachers that are now going from church to church preaching a favorite Bible topic what percentage of them you notice to be of the male gender or what percentage belong to the female gender? Or making it closer to home: of those who come to clubadventist to use their reasoning abilities to argue in favor of either side of any issue: How many are of the male gender or how are many belong to the female gender? Do this means that your sexual gender makes you a more consistent defender of any specific ideology? Now, if few people with a sense of "social fairness" come to this forum and after noticing that there is an overwhelming majority of males defending either side of any issue what would happen to the forum's membership if rules are created in order to drastically reduce the percentage of males defending either side of any issue in order to have "a more fair representation" of people of either gender getting their point across?

Based on the way you put your question, it seems that your are more than willing to sacrifice even the belief that we serve a righteous and fair God when anyone notices that the literal rules of choosing leaders that we learn through the teachings Moses and Paul and through the example of our Lord Jesus favor to choose people of the male gender. This kind of thinking where church people and un-churched people feel that we serve an arbitrary God, based on what is written in the Bible, is what is turning many people off against religion and the reason why church attendance to Christian churches has been drastically cut during the last several decades. While the faith and the influence of the Christian message for a better world is being drastically cut by people with a secular way of thinking (in and out of the Christian church), the number of atheists on the one hand and, on the other hand, the number of Muslims that don't believe in God's plan of redemption is growing by leaps and bounds. While many Christians feel comfortable making fun of what is written in the Bible, I don't think that you would ever see an atheist making fun of the idea that we are intelligent beings evolving from a non intelligent physical world that came from nothingness. Moreover, you will never see a devout Muslim making fun of fellow believers who gave their lives in a terrorist attack in order to enjoy an afterlife with seventy virgin women. When, with my mind, I raise my eyes to Heavens it is very difficult for me not to see an innumerable number of angels with their eyes full of tears, again, with their eyes full of tears when they look how many Seventh Day Adventists are more than willing to put the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus in the back burner in order to make a big issue of something that is not written in the gospel for which so many people were willing to give up their physical lives on this earth.

FF

[Johann]

I happen to be such an old fashioned Seventh-day Adventist that it upsets me to see how the young liberals are trying to confuse us by calling their stand a conservative one.

Those liberals invented that term Male Headship by following the new liberal thoughts of such men as Samuelle Bacchiocchi, who got the approval by the pope himself with a gold medal.

We never heard of that term in any of our Bible lessons nor studies before those liberals struck at us old timers.

Now even the papacy is making the anti female ordination as the only requirement for members of the Church of England and Lutherans to join in following the Beast. Just look at those liberals how they are preparing us for worshiping the Beast before Jesus comes again. The old devil sure knows how he can get hold of even sincere Seventh-day Adventist.

Pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and Scripture, and stop twisting it to promote the papacy.

[Johann]

Why should Ellen White tell the church to ordain women if it was against Scripture, like some of you proclaim? Discover the truth for yourselves, and do not let some modern liberal televangelists lead your thoughts away from God!

[joeb]

Felix,

Here's a link to logical fallacies, such as you have been presented with here, and how recognize them and counter them quickly.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

[Johann]

Felix,

Here's a link to logical fallacies, such as you have been presented with here, and how recognize them and counter them quickly.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

Which fallacies have you detected, joeb? How do you recognize them?

[debbym]

I have witnessed and experienced female leadership in spiritual roles, and male leadership in in spiritual roles, preaching teaching, committees, and honestly i have not found and difference in efficiency as their work is rendered effective by the effective working of the Holy Spirit.

women lead households all the time, and their children find salvation on the same basis of every other child born into the world. The work of the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ and bring repentance and forgiveness and life.

i think when we sexualize spiritual laboring we are in trouble.

if you have a problem listening to a women preaching, then is your mind sanctified by the Spirit, or... you can't control your thoughts or something?

i really don't get this....

i do get that some men feel somehow they are diminished in their masculinity if a women tells them what to do. or they feel that are being asked to be less of a man. and i have met these men. I don't know what they did when Mom told them what to do. Dis they reach a magical age of manhood and suddenly mom could not tell them anything, with any authority, any more?

If anyone male or female sees something needs to be done, i hope they speak up, and that problems will not develop just because the woman has been told, you have no authority anymore, be silent in the church.

male or female can equally be in their flesh or in the Spirit. God could speak through a donkey he can speak through a man or a women.

i wonder if it is all about the male ego or not.

i am just not decided on the ordination things.

will all the males in the SDA church really become emasculated if women are ordained? will women become criminal or aggressive and lose their femininity if women are ordained?

will all of our children then lose their ability to respond to the holy Spirit from birth?

this is really scary.

debbym

[Johann]

With all of this agitation against the role of women in our church our great enemy is gaining ground in destroying confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy.

[ClubV12]

Johann, it is you who is at work destroying confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy by your wild claims that Sister White endorses womens ordination in her writings. At best, that is your OPINION. You cannot offer even on definitive SOP statement to back up your claim, thus, you injure the confidence in the SOP.

[Johann]

Johann, it is you who is at work destroying confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy by your wild claims that Sister White endorses womens ordination in her writings. At best, that is your OPINION. You cannot offer even on definitive SOP statement to back up your claim, thus, you injure the confidence in the SOP.

There are thousands of Seventh-day Adventists in the world today who have read those statements by Ellen White, and therefore believe she is a prophet sent by God. Just you denying their existence does no make it so.

We might have been closer to the Kingdom of God if we had the trust and confidence in His prophets, which so many are destroying.

Just the Norwegian Union has decided to translate a book and send a copy of it to all of their 5-6,000 members to show them what is the will of God in these matters.

[debbym]

Quote:

female headship is very popular in the NAD especially with younger members who have grown up entirely in the post-patriarchal culture. The problem is that the Bible very clearly forecloses any flirtation with female headship in the church. If the clear biblical statements on male headship in the home and the church can be brushed aside to establish female headship in the church, then the clear biblical statements about sodomy and creation can also be brushed away to normalize homosexuality and some sort of theistic Darwinism.

I cannot see how supporting women in ministering the gospel in any way displaces men from the calling God gives them to labor in the gospel as well.

A woman does not become manly in spiritual labor, anymore then a man becomes womanly when caring for children.

I mention these because they are the "traditional roles"

Jesus said you teach the traditions of man for the commandments of God. our traditions are not the commandments of God.

I totally understand that a women in leadership will not become a role model for men. and a man in spiritual leadership is conversely not a role model for women. and when a woman is in ministerial responsibility she is also not trying to displace male leadership.

women have many positions of responsibility as do men, and they do not displace each other in any way in the positions they are called to fill.

do you feel if a woman is at the pulpit preaching that she is in some way asking to you become feminine, and trying to become your role model? E white did a lot of preaching, and i sincerely do not believe any men felt she was trying to assume authority over them to diminish their masculine roles. this is carnal thinking.

[Tom Wetmore]

[ClubV12]

debbym, I have heard some wonderful sermons by women from the pulpit and look forward to hearing more. In and out of the pulpit! A woman speaking, teaching, preaching, evangelizing is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is ordination of women Pastors.

It has been suggested that "thousands" have seen quotes by Ellen White that support ordination of women Pastors. This is obviously not true, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion!