Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2012 “The Adventist world church created the International Board of Ministerial and Theological Education (IBMTE) in September 2001, designed to provide overall guidance and standards to the professional training of pastors, evangelists, theologians, teachers, chaplains and other denominational employees involved in ministerial and religious formation, or spiritual formation, in each of the church’s 13 regions around the world.” (ATN News) The Omega Rebellion, Rick Howard, p. 136. What relationship, if any, is there between IBMTE and the "spiritual formation" referred to in the videos? What's Rick Howard talking about? Is what he's saying true? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 SF is bad news. And yet it intertwines with some truth to make it that much more difficult to unravel. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 29, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 29, 2012 Originally Posted By: Stan THE second chapter of our Manual For Ministers, is called Spiritual Formation. This topic, which is in a lot of places, would be like saying DON'T DO VEGETARIANISM, because Wicca's promote it. This discussion is about the same "spiritual formation" which John Bradshaw, Mark Finley and other prominent SDAs warn us against in the following video: ... and therein lies the problem. The "spiritual formation" that is being warned against may have little resemblance to the "spiritual formation" that is being discussed by many of those actually promoting/teaching practicing it. It's rather like warning people about that very dangerous man named John Smith... It also reminds me of what in our area was a truly scary time 10 years ago and the power of misinformation. During that sniper rampage, the story circulated that a white van had been seen leaving the area of one of the shootings. So everyone's attention was diverted to looking for white vans. Do you know how many white vans there are in the Washington, D.C. area!?!? Turns out that the snipers' vehicle didn't even closely resemble a white van. But one has to wonder how long that misinformation put law enforcement off the track of the killers and turmoil it caused owners of white vans. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I spoke with Mark Finley about this, as well as the editor of Ministry. I was to write an article for Ministry Magazine (Talked with Derek about this), but just have not had the time to make it academic enough.. it involved theories of Nuero-Psychology. The problem with the type of SF they are talking about is very similar to the Nuero-Psychology phenomenon of speaking in tongues. you clear your mind of everything and say the same phrase over and over again, and it develops a pathways in your brain, almost like a tunnel, and it gets easier and easier to access. It ends up kicking out a bunch of feel good endorphins that give you such a chemical high. I know, I used to speak in tongues. Do this often enough and you get electrical misfires and can have seizures, you can view that on TV as the Pentecostal type meetings. They are not 'In the Spirit", they have created a self-induced seizure. This happens all over the world, in most religious groups. EXCEPT with SF you do that inside your head, and it feels like you are in the presence of God, it is really good. As I said to my friend Jerry Thomas last week, we create a drug addition, using a drug that our body prepares. I am not a support of Rick Howard and view him as harming Church Members by misrepresenting what are Church Leaders and members are actually doing. That is why I may the comment earlier about this is the same as Trashing Vegetarianism. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2012 This discussion is about the same "spiritual formation" which John Bradshaw, Mark Finley and other prominent SDAs warn us against in the following video: Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore ... and therein lies the problem. The "spiritual formation" that is being warned against may have little resemblance to the "spiritual formation" that is being discussed by many of those actually promoting/teaching practicing it. Can you give some examples of how "spiritual formation" is different in reality from what the GC president and others are warning us about? It sounds like you're saying that the problems with spiritual formation are merely matters of misunderstanding of what "spiritual formation" is really all about. Is this all there is to what Rick Howard wrote in his book? What about the testimony given by the student from Oakwood University in the video at this link-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQNZqV34WBY&feature=related Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 29, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 29, 2012 No, what I am saying is with the definition. "Spiritual Formation is _____________." That blank is filled in very differently by many different people. It is inherently a nebulous phrase that can mean just about anything you decide it is. Whoever is speaking about it makes up their own variation. And the phrase absorbs meaning like a big sponge. Eventually the phrase means everything or anything you want it to and is consequently meaningless. It is the same problem I have with all the hysteria over the so-called "emerging church" movement. It is a kaleidoscope of a topic. Every time you turn the kaleidoscope, even slightly, you get a different image. And it is never the same twice. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 29, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 29, 2012 Thank you Stan for sharing the definition as stated in the Manuel for Ministers. It has been given many varied definitions ... many which are much different than what is in the manuel. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2012 What about the testimony given by the student from Oakwood University in the video at this link-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQNZqV34WBY&feature=related Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 29, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 29, 2012 John317 I do believe what they are talking about and what is in the Manuel is comparing oranges to apples. The devil is a great deceiver, but there is always some truth in all that the misinformation which he puts out ... it is easier to segue from what is truth to a destructive form of truth. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 29, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 29, 2012 The problem with the type of SF they are talking about is very similar to the Nuero-Psychology phenomenon of speaking in tongues. you clear your mind of everything and say the same phrase over and over again, and it develops a pathways in your brain, almost like a tunnel, and it gets easier and easier to access. It ends up kicking out a bunch of feel good endorphins that give you such a chemical high. I know, I used to speak in tongues. Do this often enough and you get electrical misfires and can have seizures, you can view that on TV as the Pentecostal type meetings. They are not 'In the Spirit", they have created a self-induced seizure. This happens all over the world, in most religious groups. EXCEPT with SF you do that inside your head, and it feels like you are in the presence of God, it is really good. As I said to my friend Jerry Thomas last week, we create a drug addition, using a drug that our body prepares. I understand what you are saying Stan. I also went through that time and became pretty good at emptying my mind (perhaps it is still empty ) it was most definitely an awsome high. I could visualize a rose and smell it.... go to my secret place and feel the breeze hear the water fall, etc. But, it was not Bibical...it was becoming dangerous because that's where I prefered to be ... the real world was of no importance. I believed that God was in me ... what more could one desire. SF in the manner described is a very dangerous trap to fall into and extremely difficult to escape. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 What about the testimony given by the student from Oakwood University in the video at this link-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQNZqV34WBY&feature=related One may get lost in the nuance, or the intentional confusion of a definition, but it's hard to ignore this graduate's testimony - that's where the rubber meets the road for defining Spiritual Formation. Either he's a bold liar, or he's sending a clear signal that the KJV & Ellen White are out, while New Age retreats & philosophy are in, the new foundation of Adventism. And for ministerial candidates, compliance is required for academic advancement. So Jim Arrabito was correct, Jesuit methods & philosophy would take over Adventism from within. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2012 No, what I am saying is with the definition. "Spiritual Formation is _____________." That blank is filled in very differently by many different people. What I'm really interested in, and concerned about, is whether the kind of classes described by the student from Oakwood University in the video below are actually being taught in our schools. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQNZqV34WBY&feature=related Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2012 John317 I do believe what they are talking about and what is in the Manuel is comparing oranges to apples. Yes, I agree with you that what's in the Church Manual and what's on the videos are two very completely different things. So a comparison of them is not very helpful in understanding the issues. In this particular discussion, I would like to talk about what's in the videos. First of all, do they tell the truth? Secondly, are they talking about an issue that we need to be aware of and take seriously? I'd like to know whether there are classes being taught in our institutions such as those descibed by the student from Oakwood University. Or is he making things up? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I have not had time to watch the videos yet (I'm at work). As stated before, SF has many definitions; not all of them conforming to the Manual. I cuurently use the "gift of tongues" in my oun PRIVATE (never public) worship; and it is nothing like explained by Stan. It is not the same phrase repeated over and over (for me at least). It is a complete "language". Although I could not translate what I say word-for-word, I generally know what I'm praying for; and can easily and consciously switch back and forth between my prayer language and English. I also practice Christian meditation; and it never involves "emptying" my mind. If anything, it involves filling my mind with a picture of Christ or the Holy Spirit and what we are doing together - depending on whether I am praising, petitioning, or just "resting in Him". I consider it to be quite a blessing. In fact, it was one of these meditation sessions that led me to join CA - which has definitely been a blessing for me. Gail had mentioned CA to me once On LinkedIn several months prior to me joining; but it was a meditation session with Jesus that led me to actually register with the website and start paying dues. That decision is one of the farthest things from a curse I have experienced in my spiritual life! Many say Christians are borrowing it from New Agers; but look up meditation in your concordance. It has been practiced by prophets and mystics since ancient times. If anything, New Agers stole it from us and twisted it into the mind-numbing excuse for "enlightenment" for which they use it today! If you want to know what to take from your meditation, see Isaiah 8:20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2012 I have not had time to watch the videos yet (I'm at work). I look forward to hearing from you again after you get a chance to watch at least one of the videos. Originally Posted By: JoeMo Many say Christians are borrowing it from New Agers; but look up meditation in your concordance. It has been practiced by prophets and mystics since ancient times. If anything, New Agers stole it from us and twisted it into the mind-numbing excuse for "enlightenment" for which they use it today! If you want to know what to take from your meditation, see Isaiah 8:20. I agree with you that the biblical practice of meditation is nothing like the meditation of the New Agers. But my question in this discussion is, what kind of meditation is being taught in the spiritual formation classes in our schools and institutions? According to the videos, there is a kind of meditation and prayer being taught in our SDA schools that is not found anywhere in Scripture or in the writings of Ellen White. Is this true? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 29, 2012 Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2012 I watched the video. I feel for the young man. If you are ultra-conservative you will find Adventist seminary disturbing. You are challenged and stretched by the new perspectives that are presented at seminary. You'll have to wrestle with new concepts and think in new ways. Seminary is not just about making you into a good Adventist pastor. How do I know this young man is ultra-conservative? He clearly believes that SDA's should only use the KJV. Even EGW didn't just stick to the KJV. Adventists have never taught that the KJV is the only version you should use. He should have gone to an independent conservative school if he wanted that kind of education. David Foster's book Celebration of Discipline is a great book. Those against SF have yet to present quotes or concepts from that book that are not biblical. Steps to Christ is a great book. Both these books were used as text books. Why would they use Steps to Christ if they were trying to tear down SOP? He complains about the communion they had at a retreat. They didn't use small cup and pieces of bread he observes. I don't think he realizes that Jesus didn't have small cups and bits of bread either. He complains that the NIV is thinner than the KJV because they have taken so much of the scripture out of it. Bizarre. He complains about a Catholic movie that he didn't watch. I presume he didn't watch it because it was Catholic. Education involves exposure to all kinds of though and practice. We can learn from Catholics too! He says many SDA pastors (SDA) are Freemasons. Do you believe that John? The video is a great example of the problem with this whole discussion. Ultra-conservative Adventists have established positions that Adventists have never taken in the past and then proceed to criticize Adventists who do not abide by those positions. One example is KJV only. The hysteria continues. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm in essential agreement with you about the video of the young man's testimony. I also thought his remark about the KJV and NIV was a bit strange. However, what he said about the teachers putting SDA doctrines in a bad light and also putting SOP down is probably true. I experienced some of the same at Loma Linda University, but I realize the teachers were actually pushing the students to think for themselves. I'm not sure if that's what was happening in this young man's experience. He was a very new SDA at the time. I noticed he called Plato "Pluto" several times. I don't think he's dishonest at all but I would say he's probably confused about some of what was going on in those classes. I'd really like to hear from the other students who he said were with him in the classes. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 30, 2012 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2012 However, what he said about the teachers putting SDA doctrines in a bad light and also putting SOP down is probably true. I experienced some of the same at Loma Linda University, but I realize the teachers were actually pushing the students to think for themselves. I was stunned in a systematic theology class when the professor responded "who is Ellen White?" when a student quoted EGW in response to question about a Bible text. It took me a while to understand that he was trying, as you said, to get us to think for ourselves and look to the Bible as the foundation of belief. People can misunderstand what teachers in seminary are trying to do. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, in many cases, the teachers are trying to prepare students, and particulary future pastors, for the real world where they can expect to be confronted by hard questions from very intelligent people. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Quote: SF in the manner described is a very dangerous trap to fall into and extremely difficult to escape Would it be worthwhile to you to relate where, why and how you escaped it? God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Quote: Or is he making things up? As a new SDA believer what would his motive be for concocting the story he told? God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 However, what he said about the teachers putting SDA doctrines in a bad light and also putting SOP down is probably true. I experienced some of the same at Loma Linda University, but I realize the teachers were actually pushing the students to think for themselves. for anyone willing to look - it will become immediately apparent that we have no shortage of non-SDAs asking hard questions. What we DO have a shortage of - is SDA university profs willing to demonstrate the method and process of finding compelling answers to those questions. Far too many are content to simply sit back and parrot the questions on to our young people "as if" that is helping. I am not saying that we have no people out there answering questions. I am saying that we have too many that are not answering much at all - just raising doubt, repeating objections, leaving it up to the youth to figure out answers to problems that the professors have long since given up on and then trying to cover it up by claiming that in some odd way "they are doing us a favor". To some extent our educational system is to blame because we tend to prefer profs that have their post-grad from non-SDA universities. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 30, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 30, 2012 Quote: SF in the manner described is a very dangerous trap to fall into and extremely difficult to escape Would it be worthwhile to you to relate where, why and how you escaped it? God blesses! The short answer is "Train up a child in the way that he should go....." If time permits I will go into the details later ... but it takes time and God's help to deprogram one's mind. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I watched the video by leaders of conservative SDA ministries (e.g., John Bradshaw of "It Is Written", Doug Batchelor of "Amazing Facts" et al), and the spiritual formation they are speaking of is not at all what I have seen practiced in the few SDA congregations that I have seen promote it. I have never seen a proponent of SF encourage the mindless repitition or emptying of the mind of which they speak. I have been involved in the occult and new Age (decades ago), and what I have seen encouraged in SF is nothing like what we practiced then. We are now encouraged to fill our mind with thoughts of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Biblical promises - not to empty our minds! It is reiforced that an empty mind - just like idle hands - is the devil's workshop. Furthermore, they continuously slam Catholicism as the source of all evil and spiritism. They hint that Vatican 2 is behind the conspiracy of SF. Time to put on our foil hats! I'm no big fan of Catholic doctrine (I was Catholic the first 25 years of my life); but I know many Catholics - including family members - who truly love the Lord; and live by His principles as much as they know them. Slamming other denominations is one of the curses of Adventism. It's equivalent to a typical modern day political ad - "let's slam the other guy to show how good we are"! It disgusts me! Many SDA's have their own pope - her initials are EGW! Last of all, they tell us to "return to the Bible and EGW" to get back to the true faith; yet not one of them offered either a scriptural or an SoP quote to support their rant against SF. Contemplative prayer - Ive been taught that it comes after I make my prayer; and is defined as listening to God for an answer. I thought prayer was a 2-way conversation. Should I not listen to God for an answer to my requests or concerns; or should I end my prayer and refuse to let God have His say? Contemplative prayer is what convinced me to join CA - and this forum has been a blessing to me - not a curse. I apoligize for any insulting or abusive language above; but that video totally misrepresented everything I have been taught first-hand about SF. I have never read the book; and never attended an SDA school, but I am an avid student of scripture (and a Sabbath School teacher); and I am insulted by the way these guys spoon-feed us like we're dumb animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Yes Joe - Those conservative ministries like to create a portrayal of SF that is not reality. They end up attacking it as a straw man. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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