Let's Talk About Spiritual Formation

[Gail]

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Contemplative prayer - Ive been taught that it comes after I make my prayer; and is defined as listening to God for an answer. I thought prayer was a 2-way conversation. Should I not listen to God for an answer to my requests or concerns; or should I end my prayer and refuse to let God have His say? Contemplative prayer is what convinced me to join CA - and this forum has been a blessing to me - not a curse.

I've read that there is a mantra involved or using Scripture like a mantra.

And like you, I don't personally know anyone either who prays using the method mentioned by those against the current popular "spiritual formation" mystical fad that is out there right now.

I just quoted 1 Peter 1:3 in the "Lectio divino" thread. According to the Bible, God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. Why do we suddenly need more? My thought is that corporately Christians might not be practising what the Bible endorses and that is why they are grabbing on to extra.

[Gail]

When I pray, I do expect that I will receive answers to my prayers. But I don't pray expecting answers like a genie in a magic lamp or to pull God down to my level. I do it to approach to His throne, through Christ and hanging on to Jesus' and what He has done as my Saviour. God's answer will come in His time. It might be during the prayer, it might be during my study time, and it might hit me in the middle of the night. It might be an impression that will only join up with Scripture later on.

But it always leads me to submit to him. And sometimes I do need to submit! I'm just learning! But that is the beauty of it.

And all through old-fashioned reading, studying and meditation on what God has given us already. There is meat enough there to last my lifetime!

[JoeMo]

Gail,

I consider you a friend, so please don't take anything I say as critical of you. I hope you think enough of me to not judge me to be a heretic.

I'm glad that you are satisfied with where you are with God. I would never try to force anyone to "try" something in the spiritual realm that they were not comfortable with.

I'm not satisfied with the things you posted. I read the book of Acts, and the Gospels, and the stories of the Exodus, and I'm kinda jealous. I read about God "talking" to people; I read about miracles and visions; and I wonder "why did these stop? Why can't we have the same experience as OT prophets and mystics, and the NT apostles and deacons?" People tell me we don't need that stuff because we have the Bible. We are happy with our faith, believing that these things happened. Well, I'm not! I want more out of my relationship with God than the occasional warm fuzzy from a good sermon or a moving Special Music. I want (not need) to hear God's voice, I want to see miracles, I want to experience His manifest presence within my heart and in my environment. So I purposely seek those things.

Do you know that the word "meditate" is used 11 times in the Bible in the sense of "quietly contemplating"? (All quoted scripture if from the KJV unless noted otherwise)

Joshua 1:8 - This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Psalm 1:2 - But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalm 63:6 - When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.

Psalm 77:12 - I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.

Psalm 119:15 - I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

Psalm 119:23 - Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

Psalm 119:48 - My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

Psalm 119:78 - Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.

Psalm 119:148 - Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

Psalm 143:5 - I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands.

How do we "pray unceasingly" all day long unless some of that prayer is contemplative? How do we know that when Jesus got up early in the morning to pray that He wasn't just going to listen to His Father without talking? Jesus did a lot of amazing stuff - His Father told Him a lot!

What does it mean when Psalms 46:10 says "Be still and know that I am God"? Sure sounds like contemplation and meditation to me.

In Acts 10:9-17 when Peter fell into a trance and saw the sheet come down from heaven full of unclean things, was he actively praying or in contemplative prayer. I'd bet it was contemplative prayer.

In Philippians 4:8 when Paul says "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, "THINK" on these things"; what is he talking about? I'd bet it meant "meditate". The NKJV actually uses the word "meditiate".

If we in the here and now weren't meant to experience visions, prophetic words, miracles, and other spiritual manifestations, why would Jesus promise that we would; and say that they would be among the signs accompanying those who believe in Him? Why would both Joel and Peter talk about seeing visions and dreaming dreams? What is the Holy Spirit if it is not God talking to you?

The Bereans were complimented in Acts because they searched out in the word to see if the things they were being told were true. We should do the same thing! We shouldn't let a bunch of conservative, closed-minded denominational "shepherds" control and intimidate us. Show me scripture that admonishes us to not meditate upon God's word or listen for His voice. I'll listen! I've said before, and I'll say it again, I reserve the right to be wrong; and to change my mind. Just show me from the BIBLE (not SoP) where I'm wrong; or where I have mis-stated things I say above.

[JoeMo]

Post is too long...Sorry!

[LifeHiscost]

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It is reiforced that an empty mind - just like idle hands - is the devil's workshop.

"“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”"Matthew 12:43-46 NKJV

God Blesses!

[Gail]

JoeMo I have no problem with any of those verses that you quoted. I fully believe in meditating on God's word! (Pondering it)

That is not the same as repeating a verse or a word such as, "faith" over and over like a mantra until something pops into the head. That is what is being proposed. I just don't see the need of incorporating certain techniques in order to get into a mood. The Bible says, Come, let us reason together.

[LifeHiscost]

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"why did these stop? Why can't we have the same experience as OT prophets and mystics, and the NT apostles and deacons?

Obviously you are not keeping up with the gospel that is going forward in other countries,largely by the younger generation notably in Africa and India although it is also very obvious also in countries like Russia.

One particular country had over a thousand miraculous healings among quite young converts to Christianity. These were countries that had suffered the deprivation of the Bible for many years before opening up to the entrance of the gospel.

For those who are aware, this promise is being fulfilled now.

" “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions."Joel 2:28 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

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Just show me from the BIBLE (not SoP)

When you choose to allow God to determine the method He desires to reveal the Way, He may show you many things that will surprise you.

" Indeed, the Sovereign Lord never does anything

until he reveals his plans to his servants the prophets."Amos 3:7 NLT

God blesses!

[JoeMo]

LHC,

I am aware of the multutude of reports of God's miracles in places like Africa and Southeast Asia. I am also aware of dreams and visions of Jesus experienced by fundamental Muslims in the Middle East and Hindu/Buddhist monks and maharishis in India. These divine manifestations thrill me to the bone!

Gail,

I have not read the book or delved into what is being taught of SF in SDA institutions. If it is indeed repeating s single word (like "faith" or "Jesus") endlessly until you "trance out" or "self hypnotize", or even pray "Hail Mary, full of grace" 53 times (as in a rosary)I have to agree that one is opening themselves up to any spirit that wants entrance. This is not how I see SF actually practiced in my church circles. It is more like I defined in the scriptures I quoted in an earlier post.

We have all heard the sermon about "the best way to know a counterfeit is to study and be intimately familiar with the genuine article" Instead of knocking SF in general, why can't we be taught and practice the genuine?

If you are willing, just try this. Bring a pad of paper into your prayer closet (wherever you have private worship) and ask God a simple question - nothing specific like "who am I gonna marry" or "what are the winning lotto numbers this week". Ask something like "why do You love me?" or "who can I talk to about You today?" Then write down His answer. Don't wait for God to move your pen or speak to you audibly in English (He probably won't); write down what you are impressed to write down. No mind-emptying, no repetitive words, just writing what pops into your head that (hopefully) is already full of thoughts of God and His Word. It may be a single word, or a paragraph, or a page. This is kind of like a prayer journal, except it is writing what God is telling you rather than what you are telling God. Do this for a week; and review what you wrote down after a week. If it's garbage - quit doing it. If it is God speaking to your heart, you will know. Don't take some closed-minded religious guru's word that all forms of SF is bad. Try it in a way prescribed in God's word and see for yourself if it's real or fake.

I again apologize for the lengthly post; but true SF is an important part of my spiritual life; and it pains me to see my denomination uniformly condemn all forms of it as from the devil.

[Gail]

Quote:

Gail,

I have not read the book or delved into what is being taught of SF in SDA institutions. If it is indeed repeating s single word (like "faith" or "Jesus") endlessly until you "trance out" or "self hypnotize", or even pray "Hail Mary, full of grace" 53 times (as in a rosary)I have to agree that one is opening themselves up to any spirit that wants entrance. This is not how I see SF actually practiced in my church circles. It is more like I defined in the scriptures I quoted in an earlier post.

We have all heard the sermon about "the best way to know a counterfeit is to study and be intimately familiar with the genuine article" Instead of knocking SF in general, why can't we be taught and practice the genuine?

That is what I've been saying all along! I do believe in encouraging our brethren in living a life walking with Christ.

[JoeMo]

Gail,

[LifeHiscost]

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it pains me to see my denomination uniformly condemn all forms of it as from the devil."

Perhaps some of those that increase your pain might be adhering to a couple of cautions important to spiritual health.

"“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."Matthew 10:16 NIV

" For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."2 Cor :11-14 NIV

God blesses!

[JoeMo]

LHC,

You're good with the admonitions.

Like I said in a previous thread, show me from scripture where I'm off base.

I'm listening ...

[CoAspen]

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Perhaps some of those that increase your pain might be adhering to a couple of cautions important to spiritual health.

I'm going to cause you pain because I know what is best for your spiritual health!

Not a very good persuader, is it!

JM,

I may not agree with you on everything or you with me, but suggesting that the others spiritual life is not the healthiest, would only push us apart! I mush more enjoy finding common ground....we do have the Holy*Spirit, do we not!!

[John317]

I watched the video by leaders of conservative SDA ministries (e.g., John Bradshaw of "It Is Written", Doug Batchelor of "Amazing Facts" et al), and the spiritual formation they are speaking of is not at all what I have seen practiced in the few SDA congregations that I have seen promote it.

But do you know that this kind of SF never happens in the SDA Church?

And do we all have to see it personally in the church in order for it to exist and for us to need to be warned about it?

In the video, we also see GC President Wilson warning the church about spiritual formation. Why is he doing this? Is he talking about something that's non-existent in the church?

[CoAspen]

We will only reach our final destination....if fear doesn't hold us back.

[JoeMo]

John,

No, I don't know that the kind of SF these guys are talking about isn't happening elsewhere. Is that a justification for condemning SF at the wholesale level? Instead of condemning those who are doing it wrong; but why don't they tell us how to do it right?

Like I said in a previous post - I practice SF in a way that I think is biblical. If I'm not, show me where I'm wrong from scripture. I'm listening ...

[John317]

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Or is he making things up?

As a new SDA believer what would his motive be for concocting the story he told?

I don't believe the student from Oakwood College (now university) concoted his testimony about his experiences.

My question was intended to find explanations for what he said. If he's not making things up, there must be some truth in what he says.

So, then, what is the truth about what's happening (or happened) at Oakwood? Is the same thing happening at any of our other schools and institutions?

Be sure to watch the video before responding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQNZqV34WBY&feature=related

[John317]

John,

No, I don't know that the kind of SF these guys are talking about isn't happening elsewhere.

If the kind of SF that they're talking about exists in even one conference or in one congregation within the SDA church, it is something SDAs should be made aware of and warned against.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Is that a justification for condemning SF at the wholesale level?

On the videos I posted, the only SF being condemned is that which is contrary to the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.

I didn't hear any of them condemning Bible-based prayer and meditation.

Can you help us distinguish "good SF" from "bad SF"?

[John317]

...Instead of condemning those who are doing it wrong; but why don't they tell us how to do it right?

Most of the videos I posted do talk about the right way to pray and meditate and they contrast this right way with the wrong ways.

[John317]

I watched the video by leaders of conservative SDA ministries (e.g., John Bradshaw of "It Is Written", Doug Batchelor of "Amazing Facts" et al), and the spiritual formation they are speaking of is not at all what I have seen practiced in the few SDA congregations that I have seen promote it. ....Furthermore, they continuously slam Catholicism as the source of all evil and spiritism. They hint that Vatican 2 is behind the conspiracy of SF. Time to put on our foil hats! I'm no big fan of Catholic doctrine (I was Catholic the first 25 years of my life); but I know many Catholics - including family members - who truly love the Lord; and live by His principles as much as they know them. Slamming other denominations is one of the curses of Adventism.

I've been connected to the SDA church and with SDAs for over 60 years, and I have yet to see the church or individual SDAs attacking people who are in other churches, including the Catholic church. As a church, we make a clear distinction between doctrines/beliefs/practices and the people who hold those beliefs. The Bible teaches that we should attack false doctrines.

Do you consider attacks against false teachings to be "slamming other denominations"?

When was the last time you heard individual SDAs or the official church "slamming" people in other denominations?

I also have wonderful family members who are Catholic. My wife was Catholic when we married, and I used to take her to Mass. Most of my in-laws are Catholic. Some of my wife's sisters are glad my wife studied the Bible with them on what happens when people die.

[Stan]

Ted Wilson was talking about Spiritual Formation that was based on Mysticism, not Spiritual Formation that is based on the Bible..

[LifeHiscost]

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As a church, we make a clear distinction between doctrines/beliefs/practices and the people who hold those beliefs. The Bible teaches that we should attack false doctrines.

Fifty years here. Same-o! Same-o!

God blesses!

[Naomi]

Ted Wilson was talking about Spiritual Formation that was based on Mysticism, not Spiritual Formation that is based on the Bible..

Just to reiterate this important distinction

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This is the syllabus for the Spiritual Formation class at Oakwood. The photo at the bottom is the "chapel" at the Retreat Center used by Oakwood where all students are required to attend.

(Sorry the attachments are so big) I bought the primary book used for the class by Richard Foster "Celebration of Discipline" - I found some of the content rather alarming....