Romans 7

[Gibs]

Gerry I too rejoice and am blessed by His pardon and forgiveness but that don't change the worm that I am that is ever before me. I hate my old self and way and I groan when the memories keep coming back. We are not to forget them or taken out of our minds and hearts. David experienced it too.

Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Only at the first resurrection will them memory banks be erased.

I think there is a reason for it, to make us hate sin all the more and make us hold tighter and closer with Him, walking with Him constantly that we don't fall.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

I used to think that Romans 7 was a christian because he delights after the law, a person of the world does not delight after the law. When I studied Romans I seen it is speaking about justification by works vs justification by faith. A few years ago we had sabbath school lessons that went over the book of Romans

He may very well be a Christian. In fact, that is the experience of many Christians. But, is the experience of the man of Rom 7 the experience of a truly saved person? Look at the parable of the two temple worshipers - the Pharisee & the tax collector, the parable of the 10 virgins, the parable of the two builders - both hear the word and one builds on sand while the other builds on rock, the rocky soil hearers. The Bible is replete with examples of people who know or seem to profess to know the word or God's will but has not really been internalized to the point of radically changing the life. Jesus

has this to say in the end, "I don't know you."

[Gerr]

Gerry I too rejoice and am blessed by His pardon and forgiveness but that don't change the worm that I am that is ever before me. I hate my old self and way and I groan when the memories keep coming back. We are not to forget them or taken out of our minds and hearts. David experienced it too.

Worm? ESV | ‎Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him...

ESV | ‎1 Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

[Gibs]

That is a surprising Psalm for sure, but when we think about it it reveals a lot.

Deity did a really low stoop to redeem us but the reference is what men saw Him to be.

The Psalm is posted a few above if you want to read it folks.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

I voted that the man of Romans 7 is converted. That doesn't mean he is sinless. Conversion doesn't give us an immunity from temptation and sin; it gives us the power to overcome sin - it is still our choice to use that power. Were the disciples converted prior to the death of Jesus? IMO, yes; but they didn't "get it" until after Pentecost. I consider myself a sinner; but I also consider myself secure in my salvation. When I sin, why do I do it? It is because I do not take hold of the supernatural power made available to me to overcome. I confess my sin; and in accordance with 1 John 1:9; my sin is forgiven and I am cleansed from my unrighteousness. When I resist temptation by the power of the Holy Spirit and don't sin, my Father and His Son rejoice with me; for - allied with them - I have won another battle in the war.

I NEVER consider myself a "worm". I consider myself a saint; and a beloved son of the Most High - a prince in the heavenly Kingdom! This is not presumption - this is taking hold of biblical promises.

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9)

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Rev. 1:6)

By beholding, we become changed. Even secular psychology tells us that our self-esteem heavily influences our behavior. If we consider ourselves to be evil sinners - keeping our sins ever before us - that's what we will be. If, instead of focusing on our failures and focus on our membership in the family of God and the heavenly Kingdom, we will start acting like princes/princesses; and take advantage of that power more and more. That is why Paul concludes Romans 7 with "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin".

Notice how he starts Romans 8:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

If he is no longer walking after the flesh, does that mean He's sinless? I think not; but He has overcome slavery to sin!

So do we, when we accept the blood and grace of Jesus Christ; and membership to His family, which makes us heirs to the Kingdom of God! Thank you Lord, for Your goodness and kindness to us!

[Gibs]

The publican and Paul and many abhor the past that is ever before us and is humbled..

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

The man of Romans 7 is converted, yes, but only intellectually. Spiritually he is still a slave to sin until he finds the remedy: the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners. Not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." F.W.100,101.

sky

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I abhor much in my past, but it is my past. God is much more interested in my destiny that He is in my past.

If I may take the liberty of equating a worm to a catepillar...

If you were to map the genome of the catepillar of a Monarch butterfly and the genome of the butterfly, they would be identical. If you were to map my genome as a sinner and my genome as a saint, they would be identical.

Hopefully, when we are converted, we go through a process similar to the metamorphasis experienced by the catepillar. God turns us into "goo" (sometimes a painful process), and transforms us into a butterfly. If a butterfly could think, would he tell himself "I am a catepillar"? No! - He would call himself a butterfly.

So it is with us. Once we have been transformed, we should no longer consider ourselves catepillars (or as you say - worms). I refuse to call myself a worm - I am a butterfly; and I intend to take to the skies on my gossamer wings to be with Jesus forever when He comes to take me home!

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

That is fine, but for me I am humbled and sick and sore of my old self, it is forgiven me I know but it is still before me and will be the rest of this life.

What a wonder it is He would even save a wretch like me.. It is said "He who is forgiven most loves most". I do, I love Him with all that is in me, I am His now totally and there is no other master in me.

I have nothing to boast of at all. Anyting that I do or have done is of His enabeling.

I think you feel and find yourself about the same.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Amazing grace - how sweet the sound -

That save a wretch like me!

I once was lost; but now I'm found!

Twas blind but now, I see!

" But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil. 3:7-9)

Be Blessed, Gibs!

[Robert]

Is Paul talking about believers or nonbelievers? The question is not new. Right through the history of the Christian church this has been the great argument of Romans 7. Men like Origen, or Wesley, or the great scholar Wyse, or Moffat, or the British scholar C.H. Dodd — all take the position that this is the unconverted person that Paul is talking about. On the other side you have Augustine, and you have Luther, and you have Calvin, and you have that famous Swedish theologian, Anders Nygren, and the British scholar John Stott, who say, “No, he’s talking about the Christian.” And so the battle has been going on.

I do not know if you have wrestled with the battle, but I have. If I had a choice, I would say that Paul is talking about the Christian. I’ll give you my reasons:

From verse 14 onwards, Paul moves from the past tense, which was predominant in the previous verses, to the present continuous tense in verse 14 onwards. That would hardly be the case if he were talking of his preconverted experience.

My second argument would be: what Paul is talking of in Romans 7, this tremendous struggle with defeat, completely contradicts what he says about himself as a Pharisee, in Philippians 3:6. There he says:

...As for legalistic righteousness, [i was] faultless.

Here [Romans 7:24] he cries:

What a wretched man I am!

This is a complete contradiction to his preconverted experience.

The third argument I will give is Romans 7:22, where Paul says:

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law....

It is not normal for an unconverted man to delight in the law of God. In fact, Romans 8:7 says:

...The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

So, again, verse 22 implies that he’s talking of his Christian experience.

Then, look at the context of the whole section. Romans 5, 6, 7, and 8 are dealing with the Christian. Why would he suddenly turn to his non-Christian experience?

Finally, there are statements, like Romans 8:23, where he talks about groaning, and Galatians 5:17 where he talks about the struggle between flesh and spirit which agree with Romans 7, and which have to do with Christian experience.

But I would take that if I had a choice. But when I look at Romans 7 as a unit, I am convinced now that to ask the question whether Paul is talking about the believer or the unbeliever is to miss the point Paul had in mind when he wrote the chapter.

Paul did not even think of that issue because what Paul is doing in Romans 7 is proving a very important point, a point that you and I need to come to grips with. And that is this: God’s holy law, which is good, which is spiritual, which is righteous, and sinful human nature, which is the same in the believer and in the unbeliever (that’s why the question is meaningless), these two are incompatible. And because they are incompatible, you and I can never be saved by the works of the law. [JS]

[Robert]

So again, what Paul is talking of in Romans chapter 7, (For the good that I will to do, I do not do) completely contradicts what he says about himself as a Pharisee, in Philippians 3:6. There he says:

"concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless" (NKJV)

Notice, no mention of a struggle with sin! In his preconverted mind Paul was blameless in his performance.

But again, especially in Romans 7:24, he cries:

"What a wretched man I am!"

This is a complete contradiction to his preconverted experience. In other words you can't have it both ways. So that leaves the fact that the man of Romans 7 is converted.

Now the other point - Romans 7:22 - where Paul says:

For in my inner being (inward man) I delight in God’s law....

It is completely abnormal for an unconverted man to delight in the law of God. In fact it is impossible according to Romans 8:7:

"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so."

So once again Romans chapter 7 is speaking of the converted man.

[Robert]

Is there any condemnation to the believer who had put his/her faith in Christ (see Romans 7:25 first part), but who - when it comes to the spirituality of the law (see Romans 7:7-13) - finds himself/herself meeting with defeat (see Romans 7:25 last part)?

The answer is "NO"!

Why?

Romans 8:2 "...because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

Notice that "in Christ" my humanity was set free from,

1] Indwelling sin (my bent-to-self) - the sin nature and

2] The curse of the law, which is goodbye to life forever - i.e., the 2nd death.

All this I have "in Christ" as long as my faith in Him remains.

Does that mean I should enjoy sin because I'm meeting with defeat? No!

Romans 6:10 "The death he (Christ) died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count (consider) yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

In other words just as your humanity died "in Christ" 2000 years ago (see Romans 6:6/7:4) consider yourself dead to sin just as your old life from Adam died in Christ 2000 years ago. In other words don't condone known sin, but rather repent of it.

That's what the man of Romans did:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

That's repentance!

Now Ellen White:

"At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen. It is to those whom the Lord has forgiven, to those whom He acknowledges as His people, that He says, "Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight." Eze. 36:31. Again He says, "I will establish My covenant with thee, and thou shalt know that I am the Lord; that thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God." Eze. 16:62, 63. Then our lips will not be opened in self-glorification. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone. We shall make the apostle's confession our own. "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing." Rom. 7:18. "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Gal. 6:14. [COL 160.3]

[Gerr]

Is there any condemnation to the believer who had put his/her faith in Christ (see Romans 7:25 first part), but who - when it comes to the spirituality of the law (see Romans 7:7-13) - finds himself/herself meeting with defeat (see Romans 7:25 last part)?

The answer is "NO"!

To which of the two kinds of faith that James describes does the man of Rom 7 belong? Or to which of the virgins of Mt 25 does he belong? Or the two builders of Mt 7?

[Robert]

James is writing about works of faith. Paul is writing about the law.

[Robert]

If you want to be wretched, that's your business, but I after what God has done for me, I choose to rejoice and feel blessed.

You are wretched as far as your law performance goes, but you are blessed because of your position in Christ. God loves you more than Himself because with God there's no love of self.

[Guest]

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Notice that He didn't say more than yourself, or instead of yourself. You are perverting the gospel, and distorting God's character when you say these things.

Look up the word "as" in the dictionary, and see if it means "more than", or "instead of".

[Robert]

Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of Rom 3:31

[Robert]

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Notice that He didn't say more than yourself, or instead of yourself.

My view is from the Bible, but since you'll argue with me until the cows come home I'll skip and quote Ellen White. What does she say?

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish." [DA 623]

Notice that "self-love" is sin - it must perish if you are to be in harmony with the law. The law is summed - "love your neighbor as your love yourself". So it can't mean love your neighbor and love yourself.

Then what? Take that natural love of self and project it to your neighbor instead of yourself.

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

Notice, again, that genuine love doesn't seek its own wealth (materialism), but instead it lives to make others wealthy. Again, no love of self.

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

When you bought your home or car, when you made that investment, who were you thinking of? Yourself! You naturally, spontaneously love yourself.

In heaven you won't even think of self, nor seek things for your gain, but instead you will seek the happiness of those around you.

[Robert]

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Notice that He didn't say more than yourself, or instead of yourself. You are perverting the gospel, and distorting God's character when you say these things.

[Guest]

My view is from the Bible

The Bible is what I quoted. Not Ellen White.

Your view is not from the Bible. The commandment doesn't say love your neighbor instead of yourself, or more than yourself. Those are your words. Man's perversion of plain scripture to try and force it to match a false doctrine. But it doesn't. Anybody who can read, can see that.

Again, look up the word "as" in the dictionary, and see if it means "more than", or "instead of". It's as simple as that.

[Guest]

I have to go with what the Bible actually says. Not with what I think it might be saying, or what I wish it was saying.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

My view is from the Bible

The Bible is what I quoted. Not Ellen White.

Your view is not from the Bible. The commandment doesn't say love your neighbor instead of yourself. Those are your words. Man's perversion of plain scripture to try and force it to match this false doctrine. But it doesn't. Anybody who can read, can see that.

1 Cor 13:4 "Love...does not seek its own (is not self-seeking)"

Notice, agape love has no love of self!

Matt 19:21 "If you want to be perfect (in agape love), go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Notice, agape love has no love of self!

John 12:25 He who loves his life loses it, but he who hates his life in this world will keep it safe right on into eternal life!

Again, the love of self is sin. If you love yourself, you are a sinner. Even people who commit suicide love themselves. They can't stand the pain that someone as caused them or they don't feel like they have measured up and so they want to escape the pain. They don't care about those who do love them and so they selfishly take their lives.

Self-hate comes from "coveting". It comes from trying to be # one, but failing to come out on top. Then comes the pity party and if it continues suicide. It happens because of our love of self (sin).

[Guest]

Now you are sidetracking, and putting things in place of Jesus' commandment. Let's stick to the commandment. It doesn't say what you're saying. And within it is the command to love yourself in a certain manor. The same manor as your neighbor.

So for you to say that any kind of self love is sin, is just wrong, according to Jesus.

[Robert]

So for you to say that any kind of self love is sin, is just wrong, according to Jesus.

No, not according to Jesus, but rather according to you - Richard.

Clearly, without reservation, the Bible teaches that our love of self is not only sin, but it is root of all our problems in this world.

Self-love originated from Lucifer, the fallen angel. He thought God's agape love too restrictive. He felt like the love of self was superior to God's agape love. This naturally led to rebellion against God's love, which is not self-seeking, and led to the expulsion of Lucifer and his like minded angels.

For 6000 years (or whatever) Satan has been developing his love of self. Has the love of self brought peace and brotherhood? No, it's brought disaster.