La Sierra rejects gay, lesbian club

[BobRyan]

[JoeMo]

John, you state:

Quote:

We see more and more church members who claim they don't see homosexuality as a sin at all. One major difference between homosexuality and the other sins you list above is that very few Christians defend lying, stealing, gossiping, adultery and heterosexual fornatication as OK with God. But today we see more and more church members who accept homosexuality as OK with God. And more importantly, there is a movement today which is devoted to persuading the church to accept homosexuality. Would you agree that this distinction makes it important for Seventh-day Adventists to discuss and study in order to know what the Bible teaches about it?

You make a good point here. It is true that very few Christians defend lying, stealing, gossiping, adultery and heterosexual fornatication as OK with God. Very few Christians I know even discuss these sins; and most Christians I know have no problem associating with those who do practice these sins. They are non-issues, in a relative sense. Most who practice these sins will dismiss them as "little" sins; or excuse them because of problems at home or "but we're in love".

No support group or club is needed because they are not as shunned or ostracized by the "straight" community as LGBT's.

Yes; I think it is a distiction that warrants discussion within the church - not on whether or not it is a sin, but on how to accomodate and integrate LGBT's who are looking for a valid relationship with God. We should be able to accomodate all people. Accomodation is not the same thing as acclimation.

La Sierra, as a private intitution, has the right to refuse sactioning an "official" LGBT club or support group. Just because they have the right to do so doesn't make it right. If jesus were here, would He refuse to meet with them? I think not.

[Stan]

A Question for my friend John317

When the conviction came to you, was it because someone was trying to convince you of the sin of the matter?

Was in when you were seeking the Lord and he revealed himself?

Am interested in those details. This is for John317 to respond to please.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

I've been out of the loop for several days; and just spent the past hour catching up on this thread. SivartM, John 317, MT, Stan, Tom, and Gerry - I really like the love and concern you put into your posts - no judging, openly questioning things they haven't experienced or don't understand. I am in the camp that believes homosexuality is no more "serious" of a sin than lying, stealing, gossiping, or heterosexual fornication.

So then no fornication "club", nor a "stealing club", nor a "homosexual club" at La Sierra or Andrews - where "evangelism is not allowed" so that it can be a "safe place" for "thieves" or a safe place for "fornicators" - even in your model right?

Bob, You have a gift for taking things to an absurd extreme. First of all, I was referring to the "grace" expressed in people's posts; not advocating establishment of church-sponsored clubs. Secondly, homosexuality is not (IMO) a willful voluntary sin in the sense that stealing and fornication are. Lastly, if the evangelism you are referring to involves judgement, condemnation, and taking things to absurd extremes like your post did, then no - evangelism shouln't be allowed. If evangelism involves showing people the love, grace, and mercy of our Savior Jesus Christ; and inviting the Holy Spirit to move on people and change their hearts in a loving transformation, let the evangelism for gays, thieves, prostitutes, fornicators, etc. begin! It's the love and grace of God that changes hearts, not judgement and threats of hell-fire and condemnation.

[SivartM]

Are you saying that you believe there are many Christian gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals who wait until they are married before they have sex? What is your belief based on?

[Stan]

A Question for my friend John317

When the conviction came to you, was it because someone was trying to convince you of the sin of the matter?

Was in when you were seeking the Lord and he revealed himself?

Am interested in those details. This is for John317 to respond to please.

Hope this does not get buried...

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Stan

A Question for my friend John317

When the conviction came to you, was it because someone was trying to convince you of the sin of the matter?

Was in when you were seeking the Lord and he revealed himself?

Am interested in those details. This is for John317 to respond to please.

Hope this does not get buried...

A very good question, King.

[BobRyan]

A Question for my friend John317

When the conviction came to you, was it because someone was trying to convince you of the sin of the matter?

Was in when you were seeking the Lord and he revealed himself?

Am interested in those details. This is for John317 to respond to please.

[BobRyan]

hmm - you group them together just as Paul does in 1Cor 6.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Secondly, homosexuality is not (IMO) a willful voluntary sin in the sense that stealing and fornication are. Lastly, if the evangelism you are referring to involves judgement, condemnation,...

1. According to Romans 3 and Gal 3 -- all the world is under judgment and all condemned in need of salvation. So yes - evangelism does include letting everyone know what the Bible says. This is nothing new - not sure why you find it surprising.

2. Romans 3 informs us that we are all wired from birth with a sinful nature. But the Bible tells us in 1Cor 10 that "God IS faithful who will not allow us to be tempted beyond that which we are able" and in Romans 8:5-7 that it is only the lost that do not submit to the Law of God "neither indeed CAN they".

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

If evangelism involves showing people the love, grace, and mercy of our Savior Jesus Christ; and inviting the Holy Spirit to move on people and change their hearts in a loving transformation, let the evangelism for gays, thieves, prostitutes, fornicators, etc. begin! It's the love and grace of God that changes hearts, not judgement and threats of hell-fire and condemnation.

As it turns out - God tells us about both in the Bible (See Paul doing this in 1Cor 6) . We cannot cut out one part of his Word in favor of another. The full balance has to be presented just as God gives it to us in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[Stan]

[Naomi]

just moving this up

[Gail]

Wow... I haven't been following the whole debate here but read about 1/2 of it.

While I wish that EVERYONE could have an accepting environment to grow and be nurtured in, that is not going to happen on this present earth.

When I first came to the church, as I stated for the photo with my visit with Tom and Brad Thorp, I was an unwed, pregnant teenager when I approached the church. I had no idea what Biblical teachings were. All I knew is that I wanted to be at peace with God.

Well, I must say that those church members showed nothing but love and patience to me all the way through. I had never experienced that love before. There WAS something that Christians had that was missing in the world.

My husband has been married 4 times. He first entered the church at age 40. When he divorced wife #2, he left the church for 10 years. What brought him back in? The relentless friendship and acceptance of one church member. He returned to BC from Eastern Canada with Wife #3. He came back to church, she didn't come along. But he is still a SDA Christian today.

There is something about love that makes any sacrifice worth it, makes them want to come home.

[BobRyan]

For most people - a divorce is a painful experience. Few people are arguing for it as a way of life or lifestyle. And if such a group were to arise - we would be glad to explain that it is not the Bible ideal for marriage.

However I don't know of anyone - divorced or not - that recommends it as a future plan. Sort of like having a car accident. No one recommends it no matter how many you have had in the past.

Showing love to people that have gone through suffering is never condemned. But forming a prostitute's club on campus with the ground rule "this is to be safe place for prostitutes - so no evangelism allowed" - would pretty much go against everything we believe on the subject of love, and of sin.

So in that regard - it is apples and oranges.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gail]

It depends on what you mean by evangelism...

Loving an outcast could be an evangelism. Jesus spent time with prostitutes! There was something about what He said and how He did it that kept them at His feet and made followers of them.

There was something about Jesus that made the very ones that society despised flock to Him. Lepers, Roman soldiers, prostitutes- they all felt SAFE when around him.

[John317]

SivartM, I'm very interested to know your response to what I wrote to you in post#585461.

[Gail]

John317, you are directing your statement to SivartM, I assume?

[John317]

And if you've never studied Greek, why do you say you don't agree with professional translators of the Bible when they translate those words to mean "homosexuals"?

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Because "homosexuality" involves a very modern understanding of sexuality. Before we had a concept of "homosexuality", it wasn't even considered that people could be born attracted exclusively to the same sex.

"Homosexuality" refers to any sexual relations between two people of the same sex, no matter what their motive or thinking is about that behavior.

There's nothing in the Bible to indicate that such relations are OK with God as long as a person feels that he or she was born with an exclusive attraction for the same sex.

For instance, the command in Lev. 18: 22 doesn't say that it's an abomination for one male to have sex with another male EXCEPT if they feel they were born exclusively attracted to males.

Similarly, Lev. 18: 23 commands people not to have sex with animals. It contains no suggestion whatever that God is OK with sex with animals if a person feels convinced he or she was born with such desires.

[John317]

Yes, I'm asking SivartM about my response to him in a particular post.

[John317]

Bisexuals, of course, are people who are sexually/romantically attracted to both males and females. Virtually all of them have sexual relationships with both sexes. Some people are attracted to their own sex, yet they may never act out their sexual desires. But those people aren't "gay" or "bisexual," etc.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Many bisexual people identify as bisexual but haven't have relationships with both sexes.

Bi-sexuals are people who have sexual relations with either gender. They have those relations because they are sexually attracted to both males and females.

The main question here, though, is, what will the Christian bisexuals whom you know do about their desires? What do they plan to do? Do they believe God is OK with their having sexual relations with both males and females?

[John317]

...Some believe that acting on their desires would be wrong, and are celibate, but others do not believe that it would be wrong, and have (for all I know; I don't usually ask about people's sex lives) or will act on them.

This begs the question, where are you getting your information about the lives of "many" LGBT?

As a 20-year-old who rarely talks to people about their sex lives, are you sure you have a solid understanding of what gays and bisexuals and transsexuals and lesbians are doing or want to do?

Are you getting information from books about the topic?

If so, what books say that there are many LGBT Christians who are celibate and won't have sex until they get married?

[SivartM]

He's sinning against God and he's hurting himself (whether he realizes it or not).

He's making decisions that will keep him out of God's eternal kingdom.

[SivartM]

"Homosexuality" refers to any sexual relations between two people of the same sex, no matter what their motive or thinking is about that behavior.

[SivartM]

Bi-sexuals are people who have sexual relations with either gender. They have those relations because they are sexually attracted to both males and females.

[SivartM]

This begs the question, where are you getting your information about the lives of "many" LGBT?

As a 20-year-old who rarely talks to people about their sex lives, are you sure you have a solid understanding of what gays and bisexuals and transsexuals and lesbians are doing or want to do?

Are you getting information from books about the topic?

If so, what books say that there are many LGBT Christians who are celibate and won't have sex until they get married?

From friends on the internet. Friends at my school. From books, films, and personal stories. Have you seen the film "Seventh-Gay Adventists"? Have you been to a convention of the Gay Christian Network, or visited the Gay Christian Network website and read the stories of the people there? I have a number of gay Christian friends and acquaintances who have specifically said that they are waiting until (same-sex) marriage. They are not the majority in the LGBT community or probably in the LGBT Christian community, but they have certainly put a lot of thought into their position.

[John317]

When the conviction came to you, was it because someone was trying to convince you of the sin of the matter?

It was unquestionably because of God's using people.

Here's what happened:

The conviction came to both me and my gay lover when we were attending Quiet Hour evangelistic meetings being held by L.E. Tucker. (Del Delker often sang at these meetings, and I had been listening to Del Delker sing ever since I was a baby.)

Of course, before these meetings, I had studied the Bible at home and at Adventist schools, and gone to church every Sabbath for as long as I could remember, besides having worship 2 times a day all during the years I was growing up in our home.

At the Quiet Hour meetings, nothing was said to us about homosexuality being a sin, except for the study of Bible verses about God's law, the definition of sin, and about Sodom and Gomorrah. Those things were sufficient to help us to see without a doubt that homosexual practices are sinful. Near the last meeting, my lover talked to Pastor Tucker in private and told him that he was gay, and L.E. Tucker only said that Christ had the power to gain the victory over that sin as well as all other sins.

He and I lived together in a house where a certain SDA Elder would come visit us (during and after the meetings) and talk to us individually about the Bible and about Christ. I know now that he was coming during those weeks in order to help prepare us for baptism. He needed to know what we knew about the Bible, the meaning of baptism, the teachings of the church, and most importantly, whether we gave evidence that we were serious about following Christ.

I am sure the SDA Elder knew we were living together as a gay couple because we weren't trying to hide it. But he never said anything about it. My lover and I simply decided on our own-- apart from anything being said at church about the necessity of our separating-- that we couldn't go on living the way we had been. We both knew that it was wrong and that God didn't want us to keep doing those things. This was despite the fact that he had been attending the gay church for a long time, where they instructed us that God was OK with the practice of homosexuality.

Looking back on it, I'm positive that he never believed that lie, although he obviously wanted to believe it. It wasn't an easy decision on his part to decide to quit that aspect of his life. While attending the master's program at a nearby university, he was working at various gay clubs as a professional female "impersonator" of different female actresses and recording artists. His decision to follow Christ and give up living as a gay person required him to make some real sacrifices, but they were sacrifices that he was glad to make.

He and I had been planning on getting "married" only a few months before we got the invitation in the mail to attend the Quiet Hour meetings. We had been living together by that time for about 3 years. I simply told him about the invitation and asked him if he wanted to go there with me. I was actually surprised when he said he wanted to go.

We each made the decision completely separately to go forward near the end of the last meeting. It wasn't due to any plan or discussion ahead of time. We simply loved Christ and wanted to do what was right-- which included being baptized and joining the SDA church.

Before his baptism, my former lover told all his friends that he was quiting living the gay life. He also wrote to a number of his gay friends with the same news, including his friend, Troy Perry, a well-known gay pastor (who himself had gone through years of a failed struggle against homosexuality). Only about six months before this, my lover had been the host at a large gay pride celebration where Troy Perry was a guest and one of the speakers.

On Troy Perry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Perry