La Sierra rejects gay, lesbian club

[Tom Wetmore]

The lesbian couple in the film have two young children. Let's assume they are under the conviction to leave the homosexual life. I would assume they would have to separate/divorce. My question is what should they do about the children? Yes, I know that children of divorce survive. But it does have a negative affect on them, some quite serious.

Is this comparable to the children of an adulterous relationship? Should the solution be the same? Do we tell adulterers with children to leave each other? It seems the more commonly sanctioned "solution" is to allow them to leave their original mates and tell them to get married. And often it is stated to do that for the sake of the children.

Life is complicated.

[M. T. Cross]

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

I guess I just don't get it.

I just can not see how homosexuals fit in there.

People are not born fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunks, revilers, or extortionists. Those are thought out decisions that people make.

A large percentage of homosexuals are born that way. John has said that he was. That is not a choice, its the way those people are wired, the way they are designed. It is what comes naturally to them.

So it leaves me thinking a couple of things. If your God did indeed design us - its a pretty serious design flaw. By condemning it he is taking away these peoples ability to have a loving and sexually fulfilling relationship with another person. This leads me to wonder what kind of being he is.

Or on the flip side, Paul could have been writing his own personal opinion.....

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Bible

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

I guess I just don't get it.

I just can not see how homosexuals fit in there.

People are not born fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunks, revilers, or extortionists. Those are thought out decisions that people make.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

I understand that homosexuality is not in the same class as drug addiction (one is the result of voluntary action, the other arguably is genetic)

But the pull is just as strong... We all have something.

Your suggestion, Joe, is a good one provided that one has a good working conscience. It's always a risk pointing out other people's sins. John has a ministry here in a very special way. I would trust him to be able to do that sincerely having "been there, done that".

He shared his experience of how the JW brought it to his attention from the Bible and left him with it... I thought that was a loving move on the Witness' part.

We do learn, don't we, from taking it from the POV of considering how we would like to be treated should we be in that person's shoes.

So then - celibate parents for the sake of the children who need two dads?

[John317]

JoeMo, I am pretty much in agreement with everything you've said in your post.

When I talk about disfellowshipping, I'm referring to those who are practicing homosexuality and make it clear that they intend to keep practicing and believe that it is not a sin.

I'm definitely not talking about gay people who want to do right and fall despite their best efforts to obey the commandments of God. These gays need love and understanding and prayer, not condemnation. They already realize that homosexual practices are a sin in the eyes of God.

So, instead of condemnation, they need the fellowship, encouragement and support of Christian heterosexuals. They also need the examples of gays who no longer practice.

One thing they don't need is SDAs telling them that homosexual practices are OK with God.

[John317]

...

I understand that homosexuality is not in the same class as drug addiction (one is the result of voluntary action, the other arguably is genetic....

I agree, but not all homosexuality is due to heredity or genetics. I have known some gay males who had their first sexual contact with another male when they were in their late 30s and early 40s. They began having relations with males because they became bored with normal, heterosexual relations with women.

Sometimes people get into homosexuality during periods when they have no sexual contact with females, such as when in prison or in the military. This happens often in the cases of both males and females. Some continue having homosexual relations after they leave prison or the military, while many others go on to live completely normal heterosexual lives.

[John317]

The lesbian couple in the film have two young children. Let's assume they are under the conviction to leave the homosexual life. I would assume they would have to separate/divorce. My question is what should they do about the children? Yes, I know that children of divorce survive. But it does have a negative affect on them, some quite serious.

...Life is complicated.

My wife and I have been close friends for a long time of an SDA woman who "married" a Catholic woman. Soon afterwards they adopted a little girl (now 24 years old). This friend of ours used to teach at a prominant SDA univesity, until she was "let go" after the school found out that she was "married" to another woman.

Yes, life is certainly complicated all right.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bible

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

I guess I just don't get it.

I just can not see how homosexuals fit in there.

People are not born fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunks, revilers, or extortionists. Those are thought out decisions that people make.

A "sodomite" is a homosexual, and fornication includes all kinds of sexual immorality. In 1 Cor. 6: 10, it lists homosexuals who are passive and homosexuals who are active. In most gay relationships, one partner is generally in the passive(feminine) role and the other active (masculine), although some change or switch roles.

What all those people in 1 Cor. 6: 9-10 have in common is that they are all practicing behaviors that are against God's will-- against His law.

The important thing that 1 Cor. 6: 11 tells us about all those people is that if they place all their trust in God, He has the power and the grace to help us resist and overcome all the temptations and sins that are in our lives. If a person decides to reject God's grace and continues in his sins, it is due to a choice. So while it's true that many people may be "born gay,"-- that is, with a predisposition to be attracted to members of their own sex,--- they have a choice whether to indulge themselves in their sinful desires or allow God to change them. And God can-- and does-- change us. But He won't do it against our will. He will give us a desire for Him and a desire to do right, but it's up to us to decide (daily and moment by moment) to give Him our lives completely. When we do that, He really does work in us to do His pleasure.

[Gerr]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Bible

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

I guess I just don't get it.

I just can not see how homosexuals fit in there.

People are not born fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunks, revilers, or extortionists. Those are thought out decisions that people make.

One way or another, all those sins are imprinted in our DNA.

ESV | ‎Is 1:5 The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. ‎6 From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds;

[JoeMo]

Again,

I really am encouraged by the open-mindedness and civility of this thread on a particularly volatile subject. As Tom and John have pointed out, it's complicated. As MT has pointed out, it is hard to understand. It's awesome that we can all talk about this with concern for one another. Bless you folks!

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: Bible

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

I guess I just don't get it.

I just can not see how homosexuals fit in there.

People are not born fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunks, revilers, or extortionists. Those are thought out decisions that people make.

[Gail]

:)

I think it's like the pedophile... He can quit diddling kids but with a past like that would you be doing him a favour by sticking him among a group of kids? (Let alone the kids!)

Can the alcoholic ever say that s/he is safe with one drink?

To do that would be unkind, I think. It is called putting oneself in harm's way. Whatever constitutes your "harm's way" probably differs from my "harm's way," but it still seems cruel to tempt someone like that.

[M. T. Cross]

I agree with your sentiment Gail.

I guess where I get lost is I just can't fathom homosexuality being in the same destructive category as the other things you mentioned.

That is just me though. I also believe that if someone is doing anything that they see as destructive in their lives they should be applauded for making a change.

[phkrause]

EC it would be the same as an alcoholic, who will always be considered an alcoholic the rest of his life. The same for a drug addict, etc. Just like we are all sinners we need to come to him everyday and ask for him to help us each and every day. Like John says, its a choice we make, not just once every so often or when we feel like it, but each and everyday. When our life's are changed and we decide to be baptized, we tell God we are ready to change, so than to if we want to stay with him we than need to reach out to him each day and ask him to guide us through all the craziness that the Devil throws at us.

[BobRyan]

[BobRyan]

I agree with your sentiment Gail.

I guess where I get lost is I just can't fathom homosexuality being in the same destructive category as the other things you mentioned.

Paul does lump them all together in 1Cor 6 - and I think you will agree that a lot of Christians (even among Seventh-day Adventists) place a rather high value on the inspired writing of the Apostle Paul.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

[M. T. Cross]

EC it would be the same as an alcoholic, who will always be considered an alcoholic the rest of his life. The same for a drug addict, etc. Just like we are all sinners we need to come to him everyday and ask for him to help us each and every day. Like John says, its a choice we make, not just once every so often or when we feel like it, but each and everyday. When our life's are changed and we decide to be baptized, we tell God we are ready to change, so than to if we want to stay with him we than need to reach out to him each day and ask him to guide us through all the craziness that the Devil throws at us.

I get the theory behind that PK.

I just don't think of sexual orientation like I would being an addict.

I keep reading on this ( and other ) topics that you God changes you. Yet I don't think he does. I think he might give you strength to follow through on the choices you make to improve yourself, but in the end the choice is based on your own personal inspiration.

Just my opinion and observation of course.

[M. T. Cross]

I think you will agree that a lot of Christians (even among Seventh-day Adventists) place a rather high value on the inspired writing of the Apostle Paul.

in Christ,

Bob

Indeed, which is why if I was ever to become a follower of Christ, I would never be able to call myself a Christian.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I think he might give you strength to follow through on the choices you make to improve yourself, but in the end the choice is based on your own personal inspiration.

I think where the misunderstanding comes in, and often the same with some christians, is that the change is about which desire we follow, not necessarily the core person. That is what God changes, not what we are, but how we control that which is harmful to us. If God was 'changing' us, then why the 2nd coming? I believe we often use 'change' in the wrong context.

[John317]

EC it would be the same as an alcoholic, who will always be considered an alcoholic the rest of his life. The same for a drug addict, etc. Just like we are all sinners we need to come to him everyday and ask for him to help us each and every day. Like John says, its a choice we make, not just once every so often or when we feel like it, but each and everyday. When our life's are changed and we decide to be baptized, we tell God we are ready to change, so than to if we want to stay with him we than need to reach out to him each day and ask him to guide us through all the craziness that the Devil throws at us.

[John317]

I think where the misunderstanding comes in, and often the same with some christians, is that the change is about which desire we follow, not necessarily the core person. That is what God changes, not what we are, but how we control that which is harmful to us. If God was 'changing' us, then why the 2nd coming? I believe we often use 'change' in the wrong context.

There's no greater miracle than what the Bible calls being "born again" or being "born from above." It's a work of the Holy Spirit that Jesus talks about in John 3: 3-8.

It isn't the result of people changing themselves by their own will.

John 1: 12-13 explains: "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

When we submit our lives to Him, and as we pray and study His word, God puts within us His thoughts and His desires. He actually changes us, and He really does change our mind. That's why the Bible says that God gives us a new heart and a new mind. If we want Him to, He writes His law on our mind and heart. God's moral law becomes a part of us instead of being merely a set of rules. We learn to hate what Christ hates and to love what Christ loves. Hebrews 1:9-- "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness..."

(Notice it doesn't say, "You have loved righteous people and hated lawless people.")

Two of the greatest examples of this miracle are what happened in the cases of Peter and Paul.

[John317]

If God was 'changing' us, then why the 2nd coming?

The purpose of the second coming is to take people out of a sinful world--people who have already shown by their lives that they want God to take away their sinfulness. That's why Jesus isn't coming back for people who are indulging their sinfulness. By indulging in their sins, they are really showing that they love & want their sins. But God doesn't force people to give up their sins. Our actions speak louder than our words. We may say we want Christ, but what do our lives say? So the Bible tells us that when Christ returns the second time, it won't be to deal with sin, but to take to Himself those who've demonstrated by their lives that they are eagerly waiting for Him. {Heb 9: 28}

[John317]

....Or on the flip side, Paul could have been writing his own personal opinion.....

But what Paul wrote in 1 Cor.6: 9-11 is in complete harmony with the rest of the Bible.

Also, I see very good reason to believe that Paul's life and writings were inspired by God.

Notice the amazing and sudden change that took place in his life, as he describes it in Galatians 1 and 2.

There's convincing evidence,too, in the influence of Paul's missionary journeys and of his letters.