La Sierra rejects gay, lesbian club

[BobRyan]

I wonder if you'd like to come to Andrews and tell some of our gay Adventist students that they are comparable to prostitutes, pedophiles, and gamblers.

So you are telling me that the AU profs are not "cluing them in" on the fact that homosexuality is indeed a sin - just like all the others?

Is there some sort of cap-on-the-Bible at Andrews now?

Is it now claimed at AU that the Bible does not know anything at all about moral law?

There is apparently some big news out there - or else maybe you are missing some key details in that response.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

As someone who is a member of the Gay-Straight Alliance at Andrews University (which is NOT affiliated with or approved by the university), I'd like to put my input into the current situation at Adventist colleges.

Firstly, the AU group, and as far as I know Prism and the other groups at Adventist schools, do NOT promote the "practice of homosexuality". They are open to those who do not believe that homosexual relations are sin.

Are they open to evangelizing those who think the Bible says nothing about homosexuality -- and informing them of the danger that they are in by holding to such uninformed views?

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I wonder if you'd like to come to Andrews and tell some of our gay Adventist students that they are comparable to prostitutes, pedophiles, and gamblers.

So you are telling me that the AU profs are not "cluing them in" on the fact that homosexuality is indeed a sin - just like all the others?

Is there some sort of cap-on-the-Bible at Andrews now?

Is it now claimed at AU that the Bible does not know anything at all about moral law?

There is apparently some big news out there - or else maybe you are missing some key details in that response.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

SivartM,

I don't recall ever crossing your path on any other threads, but I really, really like the balance and compassion you bring to this subject. There aren't a lot of people on here that are sympathetic to LGBTs. Most people seem to equate them with prostitutes, drug addicts, pedophiles and gamblers (IMO, all voluntary sins that become "habits", although I doubt if anyone wakes up one morning making a conscious decision to become a crack addict. They don't understand that gays and lesbians are, for the most part, "wired" that way.

John 317 is a non-practicing gay SDA. I'm not "outing" him or anything; he's spoken openly about it on CA. We have a couple non practicing gays at our church, too. The practicing gay SDA's I know, for the most part, are overwhelmed with constant guilt and feelings of condemnation. Acceptance of them by the church and help in reconciling their sexual orientation with a relationship with Jesus would go a long way towards healing them.

Before anyone jumps of the deep end "acceptance" does not necessarily mean making them pastors or elders. "Acceptance is simply the opposite of shunning and rejection. Their "sin" is no worse than anyone else's; and LGBTs need and crave acceptance just as much(maybe more so) as anyone else

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I wonder if you'd like to come to Andrews and tell some of our gay Adventist students that they are comparable to prostitutes, pedophiles, and gamblers.

So you are telling me that the AU profs are not "cluing them in" on the fact that homosexuality is indeed a sin - just like all the others?

Is there some sort of cap-on-the-Bible at Andrews now?

Is it now claimed at AU that the Bible does not know anything at all about moral law?

There is apparently some big news out there - or else maybe you are missing some key details in that response.

[Stan]

>>>No more "unusual" than not wanting a "prostitutes club" to be officially sanctioned on campus.

I personally really find it offensive when you make those statements and then end in "in Christ,"

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

As someone who is a member of the Gay-Straight Alliance at Andrews University (which is NOT affiliated with or approved by the university), I'd like to put my input into the current situation at Adventist colleges.

Firstly, the AU group, and as far as I know Prism and the other groups at Adventist schools, do NOT promote the "practice of homosexuality". They are open to those who do not believe that homosexual relations are sin.

Are they open to evangelizing those who think the Bible says nothing about homosexuality -- and informing them of the danger that they are in by holding to such uninformed views?

[BobRyan]

>>>No more "unusual" than not wanting a "prostitutes club" to be officially sanctioned on campus.

I personally really find it offensive when you make those statements and then end in "in Christ,"

Please someone explain to us where the difference between those sinful lifestyles came up?

It appears that Paul is lumping these groups together in 1Cor 6. Did he make a mistake?

Is there some thread that explains this?

What in the world???

Is there a board rule here that says that certain sinful lifestyles cannot be included with others as if they all do not have the basic sin problem?

What am I missing?

Do you really think that I have expressed anything on this thread that John317 or a host of others here do not fully accept as gospel truth??

Are we really to suppose that La Sierra and Andrews are "just being arbitrary" and "making a mistake" by regarding the issue in that light and treating them all the same?

I did not think I was stating a POV that almost everyone on this board did not agree with -- when it comes to the stated teachings of the denomination.

Is there some position paper that shows this to be incorrect? Did I miss something?

[BobRyan]

Question 1.

Let us say for the sake of argument that there is a very good Bible based reason for placing sinful lifestyles into different groups and not classing them all as having the basic sin problem -- pick whatever one you wish.

Shouldn't someone tell us what that is? It seems to be assumed here - rather than explained.

Is it something that cannot be explained?

Question 2.

Suppose for example that I went to a homosexual discussion board - website - and someone there asked me what the Bible view on the "lifestyle" was? Or what I as a Christian thought of the "lifestyle".

Sure I could go into the Lev 18 "detail" that this is one of those things that God says will get even pagan nation wiped out - such as the pagan nations in Canaan before Israel took over.

But at the very "least" I would admit that the Bible classes this as a sinful lifestyle just as it does a number of others.

Or would that not be "accurate"? Would that be "Misleading" on my part?

Any ideas?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Most people seem to equate them with prostitutes, drug addicts, pedophiles and gamblers (IMO, all voluntary sins that become "habits", although I doubt if anyone wakes up one morning making a conscious decision to become a crack addict. They don't understand that gays and lesbians are, for the most part, "wired" that way.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes Bob, we get your point. All sins are the same. All sinners are the same and should be treated the same, including homosexuals.

But the point that you seem to be ignoring is that they are not all treated the same by people.

As I have said before, the sins with which we ourselves are afflicted or possibly tempted toward we see as needing compassion, understanding, unlimited forgiveness. We crave a safe place where people will listen and offer understanding without condemnation. But for the sins for which we have no desire or possible likelihood of ever committing, we are quick to condemn and offer quick harsh judgment. We see no need of even listening, much less the safety of open arms.

Your point of view seems to be firmly in that latter camp.

Remember, Jesus was accused of sitting down with sinners and eating with them. And consequently he was accused of being one of them.

Its the huge perspective difference of being on the inside looking out vs. being on the outside looking in.

[BobRyan]

I was arguing that Andrews and La Sierra are in fact treating all those groups listed above "the same". Just as Paul does in 1Cor 6.

My comment about being faithful to evangelize all those groups as we would anyone else - is an argument for treating them "the same".

My argument about it not really be "safe" to wish them well, being careful not to awaken them to the danger - as they head down a path that leads to death - is not really a loving action at all - as another "the same" argument.

So while that may not be PC for those outside -- I think a lot of Adventist see this point clearly as I am sure you will agree.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

We crave a safe place where people will listen and offer understanding without condemnation. But for the sins for which we have no desire or possible likelihood of ever committing, we are quick to condemn

[CoAspen]

You doth protest too much! We understand SivartM, but not so much your continued hammering about 'The Sin'! You are sounding very uncomfortable with any one wanting to help if they don't hammer about 'The Sin'. The continued association of pedophiles and homosexuals, adding in prostitutes, suggest to me some basic misunderstanding of the topic under discussion or is it something else.............?

[BobRyan]

You doth protest too much! We understand SivartM, but not so much your continued hammering about 'The Sin'!

Fine - free will being what it is.

I never claim that free will is removed here.

I just call "attention to details".

Feel free to ignore them if you wish.

I continue to argue that La Sierra and Andrews appear to be consistent in regard to the issue in the OP ( as already noted "in the details").

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

Most people seem to equate them with prostitutes, drug addicts, pedophiles and gamblers (IMO, all voluntary sins that become "habits", although I doubt if anyone wakes up one morning making a conscious decision to become a crack addict. They don't understand that gays and lesbians are, for the most part, "wired" that way.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Then how do you get to the point of suggesting that homosexuality is not a sinful life style exactly the same as prostitution, pedophilia, gambling etc?

Why don't you listen to people who actually have to think about this, and find out what they think? http://www.gaychristian.net/greatdebate.php is a good place to start to find balanced discussion of both sides of the issue.

[SivartM]

Although this grouping that Paul provides above appears to be a radical idea in some circles and apparently is not catching on here at the moment - I believe it does get a lot more notice among Christians than you may have at first supposed.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Then how do you get to the point of suggesting that homosexuality is not a sinful life style exactly the same as prostitution, pedophilia, gambling etc?

Why don't you listen to people who actually have to think about this, and find out what they think? http://www.gaychristian.net/greatdebate.php is a good place to start to find balanced discussion of both sides of the issue.

[SivartM]

Then perhaps you well understand why I simply could not turn a blind eye to what the Bible is saying in that text.

Neither do people who genuinely struggle with this issue.

[BobRyan]

Well, that pretty much sums of the rest of your posts here. You don't know my friends

[BobRyan]

Then perhaps you well understand why I simply could not turn a blind eye to what the Bible is saying in that text.

[SivartM]

I think you had it right the first time - I don't know them and as it turns out - I mention not a single one of them - rather I point to the Bible and what God has to say on the subject.

[SivartM]

I see. So do you think that since we are all reading the same texts - that we can actually discuss the details that we find there?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I think you had it right the first time - I don't know them and as it turns out - I mention not a single one of them - rather I point to the Bible and what God has to say on the subject.

When you are talking about the gay-straight alliances at Adventist schools, of which I am a part, and say that we may as well start a "prostitute club", you are talking about my friends.

As I am sure you will agree - I never suggested such a thing.

Rather I said that Andrews and La Sierra do not place official sanctions on Homosexual clubs or prostitute clubs or gambling clubs or pedophile clubs etc and I claim that they do this for two reasons.

1. The universities in question recognize the problem as a sin problem. And you admit that some in that "club" do not understand that point.

2. Your own statement about "evangelism not welcomed" in a "safe place" for homosexuals - would apply equally well to all the other groups Paul lists in 1Cor 6 - and the Universities may have "noticed" that such practices and attitudes so directly contrary to the Gospel cannot be sanctioned.

None of this is a "suggestion" that you or any single one of your friends may as well start up a prostitute's student club.

in Christ,

Bob