La Sierra rejects gay, lesbian club

[BobRyan]

There's no need to evangelize; most of the students in these groups are Adventists.

As I mentioned in my "list" any group such as that - may claim to operate from inside the Adventist church. But being a member of a denomination (even an Adventist one) does not make us saved.

As you seem to admit when I provide that list as we saw in 1Cor 6 -- those people need salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

As I mentioned in my "list" any group such as that - may claim to operate from inside the Adventist church. But being a member of a denomination (even an Adventist one) does not make us saved.

[BobRyan]

I claim that 1Cor 6 is the Word of God and that it has a value higher than our feelings -- as it turns out.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I see. So do you think that since we are all reading the same texts - that we can actually discuss the details that we find there?

I gave you a link to educate yourself on two different perspectives. I am already quite informed on your perspective, so until you've studied the other perspectives, we can't discuss the details of the texts.

While my opinion is a pretty good one in my view - I do not offer 1Cor 6 as "my opinion" and then wish to debate my opinion with someone else's feelings.

I am happy that each person can have their own feelings, traditions and popular views. But I think the Word of God goes a step or two beyond that level.

Site you linked to is almost at the level of a "home page" in that there are a number of other links referenced there - and no actual points discussed on that page.

Is there an actual point raised somewhere on that link that you wish to discuss specifically. I think 4 verses from 1 chapter in 1Cor 6 is pretty focused.

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

While my opinion is a pretty good one in my view - I do not offer 1Cor 6 as "my opinion" and then wish to debate my opinion with someone else's feelings.

I am happy that each person can have their own feelings, traditions and popular views. But I think the Word of God goes a step or two beyond that level.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

While my opinion is a pretty good one in my view - I do not offer 1Cor 6 as "my opinion" and then wish to debate my opinion with someone else's feelings.

I am happy that each person can have their own feelings, traditions and popular views. But I think the Word of God goes a step or two beyond that level.

All of the gay Christians I know place immense value on the Bible.

Interesting claim -- it would be nice to see how it plays out in real life - as in actually reading 1Cor 6 together and see just how "immense value" deals with the actual text on the subject at hand.

I think a verse by verse walk-through would be instructive around those key texts in that chapter. It would help us all see how the claim to "place immense value on the Bible" works out in real life with an actual text example.

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

Interesting claim -- it would be nice to see how it plays out in real life - as in actually reading 1Cor 6 together and see just how "immense value" deals with the actual text on the subject at hand.

I think a verse by verse walk-through would be instructive around those key texts in that chapter. It would help us all see how the claim to "place immense value on the Bible" works out in real life with an actual text example.

I have gay friends who would probably love to talk to you about those verses. And others (probably more) who would likely rather not talk to you at all, because they're tired of constantly being under attack.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Site you linked to is almost at the level of a "home page" in that there are a number of other links referenced there - and no actual points discussed on that page.

Because that page links to two other pages each discussing a different perspective on homosexuality and the Bible. Here is the one "based on feelings": http://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php

Question: In your opinion how do you feel that the feelings at this link contrast and compare to the statements that God makes in 1Cor 6?

In your link we find this statement.

"I'm going to suggest later in this essay that there are good Biblical reasons for supporting same-sex relationships even though they don't appear anywhere in Scripture[/b]."

And we find this one ...

"if God tells me to do something, then I want to obey Him. So if God really does say so - if there really is a divine rule against same-sex relationships - then we need to follow it. But is there one?"

Which brings us back to 1Cor 6.

When your author looks at 1Cor 6 he finally brings himself to admit the following "Still, I think that it's fairly safe to assume that the arsenokoitai of Paul's day were men engaging in some kind of homosexual behavior. ".

This leaves him with no out at all except to imagine that only certain kinds of homosexual behavior are being condemned in 1Cor 6 -- even though there are no details in the text telling us any such thing about some supposed kind of homosexual practice that is actually approved of in scripture.

The author at your link also offers this helpful hint

"In the Old Testament book of Leviticus, God gives Moses a long list of rules for the Israelites. Some of these are rules we still follow today; others we don't. The most famous of all is in 18:22, which says, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman" (NIV). The NIV translation follows this with, "that is detestable," but the more famous version is the King James Version, which reads, "It is abomination."

...

Still, abomination or not, the prohibition of male-male sex is pretty straightforward. "

Here is another insight from your link that I found instructive.

"There's just something in your gut that says, "Yeah, but if there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, then why all the negativity in Scripture?" For most of us, that's counterbalanced by a feeling in our hearts that says that loving, Christ-centered relationships are a good thing"

In the end - the author finds no example of homosexual behavior that is approved of - in the Bible, just as he promised at the outset when he said the following;

"I'm going to suggest later in this essay that there are good Biblical reasons for supporting same-sex relationships even though they don't appear anywhere in Scripture."

That too speaks volumes.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

All of the gay Christians I know place immense value on the Bible.

[Gerr]

Well, that pretty much sums of the rest of your posts here. You don't know my friends, but you know that they are gay, and the rest of their lives are therefore meaningless to you; how devoted they are to God, how much they have struggled, how they have faced rejection from their peers, how some of them have been kicked out of their homes. No matter what they have sacrificed to go to an Adventist university and find a community that loves them, you think that they are no better than prostitutes. I wouldn't care one whit if they were prostitutes, because they are real people who I care about.

I don't have any homosexual friends. So since you seem to know more about homosexuals than I do, then, please, enlighten me. I don't have a problem accepting them as I would any other person. Homosexuality to me is no more sinful than gossip or cheating the gov't on income taxes. My perception though is that acceptance and love to them means that I have to accept their lifestyle as well. Everything I read about the gay/lesbian movement whether Christian or otherwise, is about legitimizing and acceptance of the practice as normal. Is this erroneous? What do they mean when they want me to be supportive?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Well, that pretty much sums of the rest of your posts here. You don't know my friends, but you know that they are gay, and the rest of their lives are therefore meaningless to you; how devoted they are to God, how much they have struggled, how they have faced rejection from their peers, how some of them have been kicked out of their homes. No matter what they have sacrificed to go to an Adventist university and find a community that loves them, you think that they are no better than prostitutes. I wouldn't care one whit if they were prostitutes, because they are real people who I care about.

I don't have any homosexual friends. So since you seem to know more about homosexuals than I do, then, please, enlighten me. I don't have a problem accepting them as I would any other person. Homosexuality to me is no more sinful than gossip or cheating the gov't on income taxes. My perception though is that acceptance and love to them means that I have to accept their lifestyle as well. Everything I read about the gay/lesbian movement whether Christian or otherwise, is about legitimizing and acceptance of the practice as normal. Is this erroneous? What do they mean when they want me to be supportive?

Excellent points Gerry

[olger]

Gerry, there is a tremendous push by the "prince of this world" to cause the normalization of homosexuality as a viable lifestyle.

Unless we are prepared to say that God is the author of it,

rejoice always,

G

[Tom Wetmore]

The predicable responses to this topic here remind me of a true story that Philip Yancey told in The Jesus I Never Knew and repeated at the beginning of What's So Amazing About Grace?. It was told to him by a friend that worked with the down-and-out in Chicago:

Quote:

A prostitute came to me in wretched straights, homeless, sick, unable to buy food for her two-year-old daughter. Through sobs and tears, she told me she had been renting out her daughter - two years old! - to men interested in kinky sex. She made more renting out her daughter for an hour than she earned on her own in a night. She had to do it, she said, to support her own drug habit. I could hardly bear hearing her sordid story. For one thing, it made me legally liable - I'm required to report cases of child abuse. I had no idea what to say to this woman.

At last I asked if she had ever thought of going to a church for help. I will never forget the look of pure naive shock that crossed her face. "Church!" she cried. "Why would I ever go there? I was already feeling terrible about myself. They'd just make me feel worse."

Yancey goes on to correctly observe that people much like this prostitute fled toward Jesus, seeing Him as a safe refuge. But today it seems that such people no longer feel welcome among His followers. Why?

In short, it's about grace. We are the happy recipients of abundant grace, but become stingy about extending it to others. We forget that Jesus said, "Freely you have received, freely give."

[BobRyan]

Indeed the predictable nature of some of the posts is astounding.

In 1John 2:3-5 - John said that those who claim to welcome Christ and yet refuse to walk as he walked - have a problem of a very specific type.

In Matt 7 Jesus said that those who claim to welcome Christ saying "Lord Lord" and yet refuse to actually do the will of the Father - have an issue of a very specific type.

In fact Jesus claims "By their fruits you shall know them". Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

And John says that the saints are those who "Keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

Jesus said "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15.

John said "By THIS we know that we love the children of God, - " can you guess what comes next?

The Bible writers are pretty direct on this point.

No wonder Paul would say the kind of things he said in 1Cor 6.

No wonder those statements of Paul are so unwelcome in the modern age.

In the modern age the rule seems to be "where details fail - ad hominem shall prevail". I think we can all agree that we do not want to go down that road.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

Still missing the point.....maybe. Will give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest taking a deep breath and 'listen' to what has been posted. What you are , its sounds like accusing, the church and individuals of is not being expressed or implied.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Still missing the point.. [/quote']

If you say so... but I think most of the rest of us get it.

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

I don't have any homosexual friends. So since you seem to know more about homosexuals than I do, then, please, enlighten me. I don't have a problem accepting them as I would any other person. Homosexuality to me is no more sinful than gossip or cheating the gov't on income taxes. My perception though is that acceptance and love to them means that I have to accept their lifestyle as well. Everything I read about the gay/lesbian movement whether Christian or otherwise, is about legitimizing and acceptance of the practice as normal. Is this erroneous? What do they mean when they want me to be supportive?

Thank you for the excellent and respectful question. I think that many people are (understandably) misreading words like "accept" and "support". I would personally love it if everyone saw the case for acceptance of monogamous, loving homosexual relationships, but I understand that there is a big split in perspective, and that's okay. You do not have to approve of people's relationships. LGBT equality is not about forcing people to change their beliefs.

What gay people want is to treat them as you would anyone else. Not try to enforce your beliefs upon them (legally, or in such measures as disfellowshipping). Not pretend to become their friend with an agenda to "convert" them (especially if they're in a dedicated relationship). Not argue about their sexual orientation with them, or call their orientation a "lifestyle" (big pet peeve: who talks about the "straight lifestyle"?). Gay people, and gay Christians, know their life better than straight people do. They know where they stand, and because they often feel attacked on all sides by Christians, I think most would prefer that if you don't agree with their position on homosexuality, that you just didn't confront it. Treat them as fellow Christians because of what you see in their hearts, and instead of praying for them to change their sinful ways, pray that the grace of God will be sufficient for all who love him.

[BobRyan]

Not pretend to become their friend with an agenda to "convert" them (especially if they're in a dedicated relationship). Not argue about their sexual orientation with them, or call their orientation a "lifestyle" (big pet peeve: who talks about the "straight lifestyle"?). Gay people, and gay Christians, know their life better than straight people do. They know where they stand, and because they often feel attacked on all sides by Christians, I think most would prefer that if you don't agree with their position on homosexuality, that you just didn't confront it. Treat them as fellow Christians because of what you see in their hearts, and instead of praying for them to change their sinful ways, pray that the grace of God will be sufficient for all who love him.

So that what you think Paul is doing in 1Cor 6?

Is he making a huge mistake there?

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

So that what you think Paul is doing in 1Cor 6?

Is he making a huge mistake there?

in Christ,

Bob

I think "homosexuality" is a mistranslation. But more importantly, that is not the point. If this was a discussion about anorexia nervosa, we would not be debating verses or wondering how we can accept anorexics without condoning their actions. And anorexia is undoubtedly worse for a person than homosexuality, as I hope you would agree.

[Gerr]

Thank you for the excellent and respectful question. I think that many people are (understandably) misreading words like "accept" and "support". I would personally love it if everyone saw the case for acceptance of monogamous, loving homosexual relationships,....

What people do in their private lives behind closed doors is their business and not mine. And I have no problem welcoming any one who wants to come and worship in God's house. But I do have a problem accepting into membership same sex couples who are in active relationship. The words of Scriture for me are too clear to be misunderstood - it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as he would a woman.

Quote:

What gay people want is to treat them as you would anyone else. Not try to enforce your beliefs upon them (legally, or in such measures as disfellowshipping).

Doesn't that go both ways? If I'm not mistaken, many students are now taught that same sex relationships are ok against the wishes of their parents.

Quote:

Not pretend to become their friend with an agenda to "convert" them (especially if they're in a dedicated relationship). Not argue about their sexual orientation with them, or call their orientation a "lifestyle" (big pet peeve: who talks about the "straight lifestyle"?). Gay people, and gay Christians, know their life better than straight people do. They know where they stand, and because they often feel attacked on all sides by Christians, I think most would prefer that if you don't agree with their position on homosexuality, that you just didn't confront it. Treat them as fellow Christians because of what you see in their hearts, and instead of praying for them to change their sinful ways, pray that the grace of God will be sufficient for all who love him.

Should anyone sharing the gospel stop talking about sin, any sin, because some people are now convinced that their particular practice is no longer sinful?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

So that what you think Paul is doing in 1Cor 6?

Is he making a huge mistake there?

in Christ,

Bob

I think "homosexuality" is a mistranslation.

Is that your considered opinion as someone that has studied Greek?

Is that "mistranslation" conclusion your considered opinion after reviewing commentaries on that verse by those who have studied Greek?

here is what your own source that you asked me to read admitted -

"Still, I think that it's fairly safe to assume that the arsenokoitai of Paul's day were men engaging in some kind of homosexual behavior. ".

So far the point from 1Cor 6 - is not all that difficult.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In the Bible all homosexual activities are condemned in unqualified terms "men with men" or "women with women".

But there is no unqualified condemnation of the form "men with women" - because some forms of that are fine according to the Bible.

That is instructive.

This may be yet another reason why a "safe place" for those engaged in the various sins of 1Cor 6 - is defined as a place where Christian Bible-based "evangelism" is not welcomed.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post584519

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Are they open to evangelizing those who think the Bible says nothing about homosexuality -- and informing them of the danger that they are in by holding to such uninformed views?

I'm not sure you quite understand the concept of a "safe space". By definition, such a space is not open to "evangelizing" people; these students can get that anywhere else they please.

I think the 1Cor 6 type reason for "no evangelism here" is obvious and I am sure many people see it - but sometimes the obvious has to be stated.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

In short, it's about grace. We are the happy recipients of abundant grace, but become stingy about extending it to others. We forget that Jesus said, "Freely you have received, freely give."

How does grace gracefully say - "Neither do I condemn, go and sin no more?"

[John317]

As someone who is a member of the Gay-Straight Alliance at Andrews University (which is NOT affiliated with or approved by the university), I'd like to put my input into the current situation at Adventist colleges.

What is the Alliance for?

Are you allied with gay people in order to help them understand that the Holy Spirit will empower them to resist and overcome the sin of homosexual practices?

Or are you allied with gay people in order to help them feel that there's nothing wrong with the practice of homosexuality?

Perhaps you are allied with them in order to protect them from harassment or violence from straight people, and if this is the case, I would agree with you. However, that is not usually the reason for gay-straight alliances. Typically such alliances result in encouraging gays to believe that God is OK with homosexuality.

[John317]

How does grace gracefully say - "Neither do I condemn, go and sin no more?"

My concern is that even among many SDAs, what we're hearing more and more is, "Gays, neither do I condemn you, because what you're doing is not a sin. Go and no longer worry."

It's putting the conscience to sleep.

Instead of lovingly helping gays to see that homosexuality is wrong and that Christ has the solution, practicing gays are too often being made to feel that the church is wrong to make them feel guilty by saying homosexuality is a sin.

[John317]

I have gay friends who would probably love to talk to you about those verses.

And I believe I know what those gay friends would say about 1 Cor. 6: 9-10. They would doubtless claim that 1 Cor.6: 9-10 does not refer to homosexuality at all, but to perverted sexuality in the context of false religion. Therefore, according to this view, those verses have nothing to do with what we call "gays" or "lesbians."

I have heard that argument since 1971 when I was a member of a gay church in Southern California. At that time, of course, such an argument would never have been heard in the SDA church. Today it is seen even in some writings by SDAs in magazines published by SDAs. So those notions are slowly creeping their way from the fallen churches into the Remnant church.

But that argument is not very well thought through:

First, there's nothing to indicate in the Bible that sex between males or between females is OK as long as it is not connected with false religious worship.

Secondly, the seventh commandment of the Decalogue does not only condemn sex outside of marriage by men and women, but it condemns ALL sexual relations outside of marriage between a man and a woman. This is demonstrated consistently all through the Bible.

Therefore, the biblical teaching that homosexual practices are wrong doesn't depend on how 1 Cor. 6: 9 is translated. You could translate it any way you want-- including making it appear to be unrelated to today's homosexual practices-- and it wouldn't change the fact that the Bible condemns as sin all sexual relations apart from marriage between a man and a woman.