La Sierra rejects gay, lesbian club

[BobRyan]

As someone who is a member of the Gay-Straight Alliance at Andrews University (which is NOT affiliated with or approved by the university), I'd like to put my input into the current situation at Adventist colleges.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

In short, it's about grace. We are the happy recipients of abundant grace, but become stingy about extending it to others. We forget that Jesus said, "Freely you have received, freely give."

How does grace gracefully say - "Neither do I condemn, go and sin no more?"

With arms open wide, empathy and respect. Simply ask yourself how you would be most likely to believe and accept the thought if you were in their shoes.

If grace is to have the impact that God intends it must be shared by us with others.

“The quality of mercy is not strained; It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed- It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes.”

[BobRyan]

John said "By THIS we know that we love the children of God, - " can you guess what comes next in that quote from John?

Might it be "-- when we promise not to share the gospel with them or tell them how the Gospel defines sin and salvation"??

[John317]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

So that what you think Paul is doing in 1Cor 6?

Is he making a huge mistake there?

in Christ,

Bob

I think "homosexuality" is a mistranslation.

Do you have a favorite translation of that verse which reflects the way you believe it ought to be translated?

The Greek words are "malakoi" and "apsenokoitai."

1) Malakos is an adjective meaning soft. Its normal use is to describe things, such as "soft garments" (Luke 7: 25). In 1 Cor. 6: 9, it is used substantivally to mean effeminate ones, the passive partners in homosexual intercourse. Historically, these were often called "catamites." The dictionary defines "catamite"---

cat·a·mite

[kat-uh-mahyt]

noun

a boy or youth who is in a sexual relationship with a man.

2) Arsenokoites-- noun used only here in 1 Cor.6: 9 and in 1 Tim. 1: 10, derived from the adjective arsen, male, and the noun koite, bed, coitus, thus meaning a male homosexual. Specifically, it refers to the male homosexual partner who takes the active role in distinction from the malakos, the passive partner.

If you notice ads for sexual partners in gay magazines or in newspapers, you will see many asking for "tops" or "dominants" or "actives" and others for "bottoms" or "passives."

[John317]

....I would personally love it if everyone saw the case for acceptance of monogamous, loving homosexual relationships,...

Are you talking here about gay people in the SDA Church? Or gay people in society in general?

If you mean in the church, would you like to see a gay Adventist clergy?

Do you find anything in the Bible which supports the notion that God is pleased with practicing homosexuals as long as they are faithfully having sex with only one partner?

My experience from 1969 to 2004 is that there are very few gay relationships that can be honestly described as "monogamous, loving homosexual relationships." This occurs more often among lesbians but it is very rare indeed among males, especially after years of living together.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

How does grace gracefully say - "Neither do I condemn, go and sin no more?"

With arms open wide, empathy and respect. Simply ask yourself how you would be most likely to believe and accept the thought if you were in their shoes.

Tom, do you have any gay friends that you genuinely like being with or talking with? Do you open your arms wide to receive them and treat them as an equal and with empathy and respect?

I'm not really asking you to answer this, but I only pose the questions because I find that many people can talk easily enough about loving gay people, but it's another thing entirely to actually do it.

Jesus truly loved the woman caught in adultery. What did "love" mean to Jesus and what did He do as a result of His love for her?

And do we really love gay people if we don't do the same as Jesus did? What if, instead, we give them the impression (or perhaps even tell me) that practicing homosexuality is OK with God?

I'm not for a moment suggesting that every Christian ought to tell every gay person they meet that being gay is evil and that they need to change or become straight. In fact, that's exactly what I'm NOT saying.

I'm saying that we need to do it as Christ did. He first showed that He genuinely loved the person and was his/her friend in the truest, profoundest sense. He was willing to die for that person.

[SivartM]

John said "By THIS we know that we love the children of God, - " can you guess what comes next in that quote from John?

Might it be "-- when we promise not to share the gospel with them or tell them how the Gospel defines sin and salvation"??

[SivartM]

1) Malakos is an adjective meaning soft. Its normal use is to describe things, such as "soft garments" (Luke 7: 25). In 1 Cor. 6: 9, it is used substantivally to mean effeminate ones, the passive partners in homosexual intercourse. Historically, these were often called "catamites." The dictionary defines "catamite"---

cat·a·mite

[kat-uh-mahyt]

noun

a boy or youth who is in a sexual relationship with a man.

2) Arsenokoites-- noun used only here in 1 Cor.6: 9 and in 1 Tim. 1: 10, derived from the adjective arsen, male, and the noun koite, bed, coitus, thus meaning a male homosexual. Specifically, it refers to the male homosexual partner who takes the active role in distinction from the malakos, the passive partner.

So we have "boys who are in sexual relationships with men" and "male bed". I'm not sure how the jump from "male bed" to "male homosexual" is so obvious, but then, I haven't studied Greek.

From the definitions you give, it sounds like pederasty to me. Not modern homosexual relationships. Pederasty was a relationship between an adult male and an adolescent male without consent (by modern standards) and unrelated to one's inborn sexual orientation.

[SivartM]

Are you talking here about gay people in the SDA Church? Or gay people in society in general?

If you mean in the church, would you like to see a gay Adventist clergy?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

John said "By THIS we know that we love the children of God, - " can you guess what comes next in that quote from John?

Might it be "-- when we promise not to share the gospel with them or tell them how the Gospel defines sin and salvation"??

If you are talking to gay Adventists, they know the gospel. They are not gay because they weren't informed enough.

They know the gospel intellectually; they are well "informed enough," yes. But that is not what's important. The Bible makes a distinction between knowing Christ experientially and having accurate information about the gospel. Millions of people will be lost knowing lots of information about Christ and about the gospel.

What they didn't have was Christ abiding/living in them. Knowing Christ and being personally committed to Him as Master of one's life is different from having head knowledge of the gospel.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If you mean in the church, would you like to see a gay Adventist clergy?

... yes.

OK, so you would like to see gay ministers in the SDA church.

Do you believe this is what God wants?

[SivartM]

What they didn't have was Christ abiding/living in them. Knowing Christ and being personally committed to Him as Master of one's life is different from having head knowledge of the gospel.

That's a pretty big judgment on gay Christians. And that is not at all my experience with my peers. I know people who are very sincerely dedicated to Christ, and I cannot deny their experience just because they are gay.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

My experience from 1969 to 2004 is that there are very few gay relationships that can be honestly described as "monogamous, loving homosexual relationships." This occurs more often among lesbians but it is very rare indeed among males, especially after years of living together.

My experience with the LGBT community has been completely different; I see lots of monogamous, loving relationships. Just look at all of the couples who line up to get married when a state legalizes gay marriage.

You have only seen the gay community from the outside. I came close to marrying my gay boy-friend and living as a gay person completely immersed in the gay community.

Have you gone to gay baths and gay bars? Have you been a member of a gay church and gotten to know the gay minister and his gay partner? Have you lived as a gay person for years in the gay community of a large city?

Look at the books on the subject (written by authors who are either gay or pro-gay) and see what they report of the studies of gay couples. They show a much higher rate of sexual activity outside the gay relationship than occurs among straight couples.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What they didn't have was Christ abiding/living in them. Knowing Christ and being personally committed to Him as Master of one's life is different from having head knowledge of the gospel.

That's a pretty big judgment on gay Christians. And that is not at all my experience with my peers. I know people who are very sincerely dedicated to Christ, and I cannot deny their experience just because they are gay.

It isn't my judgment; it's the Bible's.

The Holy Spirit in people's lives does not lead them into homosexual relationships. He won't lead us to live in ways that are contrary to the Scriptures that He inspired.

Romans 8:7-11

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [8] Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [10] But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Cor. 6:9-11

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 John 3:1-10

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. [2] Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. [3] And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

[4] Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righ teousness is righteous, as he is righ teous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

[SivartM]

Have you gone to gay baths and gay bars? Have you been a member of a gay church and gotten to know the gay minister and his gay partner? Have you lived as a gay person for years in the gay community of a large city?

[John317]

First, there's nothing to indicate in the Bible that sex between males or between females is OK as long as it is not connected with false religious worship.

Secondly, the seventh commandment of the Decalogue does not only condemn sex outside of marriage by men and women, but it condemns ALL sexual relations outside of marriage between a man and a woman. This is demonstrated consistently all through the Bible.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

So Abraham and Moses were sinning by marrying more than one woman, then? Why didn't God condemn their actions?

God's ideal was always one man for one woman. He showed this when he brought Adam and Eve together.

But the point here is that Abraham and Moses only had sexual relations with women in what was considered at that time to be a legitimate relationship between a man and a woman.

They did not have sexual relations with a male and the Bible indicates that all such relationships and activities is a sin.

The discussion is not about polygamy. God never told Moses and Abraham or David or Solomon that it was His will for them to have more than one wife.

Again, the Bible condemns all sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman. The Scriptures refer to all such things as "sexual immorality," "fornication," and "adultery."

Rev. 22:15

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Leviticus 18:22

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Have you gone to gay baths and gay bars? Have you been a member of a gay church and gotten to know the gay minister and his gay partner? Have you lived as a gay person for years in the gay community of a large city?

Of course not, I'm 20 years old. I couldn't have done most of those things. That doesn't mean I have no experience with the LGBT community.

You'll notice I never said you had no experience. I'm also not suggesting that you should have personal experience in the LGBT community, I mean as a participant.

[John317]

What is some research done in the last 10 years that you would recommend on these statistics?

Actually, whether it is 30 or 20 or 10 years, the studies on this topic won't change much.

But if you go to any large book-store, or large university library, you should be able to find books on this subject that show the result of such studies done in the past 10 years or so. It won't matter which study, as long as it is looking at the differences between sexual activiies among gays/lesbians vs. heterosexuals.

[John317]

While interesting, though, I'm not sure why polyamorous relationships should invalidate monogamous relationships.

Do you mean "polyamorous relationships" as in three or four people having sexual relationships together?

How could a person have a sexual relationship with two or more people and at the same time have a monogamous relationship?

mo·nog·a·my (m-ng-m)

n.

1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.

a. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.

b. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.

Many gay men-- including those in long-term relationships-- have what they call "tricks." And they often do it with the knowledge of their partner. It's common to have an arrangement, particularly after being together for a number of years, whereby each partner is able to "play around" with an occasional "trick." They usually consist of "one-night stands," or even far less time, and they usually never see one another again. As long as the "trick" doesn't become a lover, it's OK. It's not uncommon, in fact, for two males who are "married" to meet other males in the gay baths or at a gay bar or in a park, etc., and they will join each other in having sex with the "trick."

Is this your idea of a "monogamous relationship"?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

1) Malakos is an adjective meaning soft. Its normal use is to describe things, such as "soft garments" (Luke 7: 25). In 1 Cor. 6: 9, it is used substantivally to mean effeminate ones, the passive partners in homosexual intercourse. Historically, these were often called "catamites." The dictionary defines "catamite"---

cat·a·mite

[kat-uh-mahyt]

noun

a boy or youth who is in a sexual relationship with a man.

2) Arsenokoites-- noun used only here in 1 Cor.6: 9 and in 1 Tim. 1: 10, derived from the adjective arsen, male, and the noun koite, bed, coitus, thus meaning a male homosexual. Specifically, it refers to the male homosexual partner who takes the active role in distinction from the malakos, the passive partner.

So we have "boys who are in sexual relationships with men" and "male bed". I'm not sure how the jump from "male bed" to "male homosexual" is so obvious, but then, I haven't studied Greek.

SivartM, do you believe the Bible is saying that "male beds" won't inherit the kingdom of God? Is it saying that "soft" men won't be in God's kingdom? Of course not. They're both referring to people who practice what the Scriptures consider sins that will keep people out of heaven.

Arsenokoites was the Greek way of referring to men who take males to bed, i.e., have sex with them.

You concede that you haven't studied Greek, so why don't you go to the Greek-English dictionaries and lexicons and see how they define those words?

And if you've never studied Greek, why do you say you don't agree with professional translators of the Bible when they translate those words to mean "homosexuals"?

[John317]

From the definitions you give, it sounds like pederasty to me. Not modern homosexual relationships. Pederasty was a relationship between an adult male and an adolescent male without consent (by modern standards) and unrelated to one's inborn sexual orientation.

In ancient Greece and Rome, the adolescent males were usually consenting to the homosexual activities they were involved in. In Greece in particular, at least during the time of Plato and Socrates, it was the ordinary way that men lived.

The point is, though, that the Bible gives no indication that God is pleased with homosexual relationship under any circumstances, whether you are having sex with a boy or with a member of your sex who is your own age. In Lev. 18: 22, God commands, "You shall not lie with a male as with a female. It is an abomination." Nothing mentioned here about age or consent. They're irrelevant.

The Scriptures also don't teach that homosexuality is OK as long as you feel that you were born with that "orientation." That would be like saying that committing sin is OK as long as you feel it's natural for you.

The Bible tells us not to give in to our natural orientation (the flesh) when it is opposed to the Spirit. For instance, if I feel that it's natural for me to get angry or fight or get drunk, God doesn't excuse me because of that fact. Why not? Because God offers me the power to resist and overcome those things. Through Christ I can have freedom from those sins so that I can obey God. If I choose instead to obey my lusts and my sinful desires (the flesh), then I will have to reap the consequences, which will be eternal death.

[John317]

... We are there to support LGBT students and provide a safe place without the moral judgments thrown at them everywhere else in the church.

I understand perfectly, SivartM.

They resent the moral judgments because they are resisting them. They don't like the "moral judgments" of the Bible and of the church because they want to feel that there's nothing wrong with their practices and their way of life. I know because I felt that way, too, for the longest time.

But since I agree that homosexuality is wrong and since I am letting God free me from those sins, I don't mind the moral judgments at all.

You only dislike the moral judgments if you know you are doing-- or want to do-- the things condemned by those moral judgments.

For instance, if I am living in adultery with another woman, and if I plan to go on living that way, I am going to try to avoid the moral judgments against what I'm doing. However, if I have stopped living that way, and if God has forgiven me and freed me from that life, I will welcome the moral judgments against adultery. I will realize they are true, and I will love truth. I will only hate the Truth and not come to the Truth, if I want my sin and therefore feel rightly condemened by the Truth.

What do you think?

[John317]

... There's no need to evangelize; most of the students in these groups are Adventists. That's kind of why they're at Adventist schools. That's why we have prayer at our meetings, open with worship thoughts, and discuss our spiritual lives.

Depends on what you mean by "evangelize." If you mean there's no need to teach the gospel and study Bible doctrines, your statement would be false.

Just because someone is an Adventist in name doesn't mean they know the gospel or that they are Christians in the biblical sense.

I was brought up in an SDA home where my parents were both teachers in the SDA school system. My great grandparents on both sides of my family were SDAs. I attended SDA schools through college. In fact, I graduated from an SDA univerity with a degree in theology/religion, and served for a while as an associate pastor. I gave Bible studies and sermons. I loved Jesus and wanted to do right. But I found myself going back deeper and deeper into the gay life. I struggled against my homosexual desires for decades. I lost. I seemed unable to help myself. So for a long time I gave up almost completely because I honestly didn't think there was any hope of becoming free of them.

What did I need? I needed someone who would "evangelize" me. I needed a friend who would lovingly show me the way through God's word. I believe God knew my heart, my need, and He finally led me to that friend.

[Gerr]

Thanks, John, for saying things I could never say since you came out of that situation.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

... There's no need to evangelize; most of the students in these groups are Adventists. That's kind of why they're at Adventist schools. That's why we have prayer at our meetings, open with worship thoughts, and discuss our spiritual lives.

Depends on what you mean by "evangelize." If you mean there's no need to teach the gospel and study Bible doctrines, your statement would be false.

Just because someone is an Adventist in name doesn't mean they know the gospel or that they are Christians in the biblical sense.

Indeed as we have already noted on this thread.

Furthermore a prostitutes' club, gambler's club, pedophile's club, homosexual's club (or any of the groups Paul lists in 1Cor 6) that insists "no evangelism allowed here" is not too surprising.

What is surprising is that one would "suppose" that since those "clubs" claim to operate from among SDA young adults that by definition this means it would be mean spirited to introduce them to the Gospel and its statements on sin and salvation.

in Christ,

Bob