BobRyan Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Originally Posted By: BobRyan So that what you think Paul is doing in 1Cor 6? Is he making a huge mistake there? in Christ, Bob I think "homosexuality" is a mistranslation. Is that your considered opinion as someone that has studied Greek? Is that "mistranslation" conclusion your considered opinion after reviewing commentaries on that verse by those who have studied Greek? You appear to be expressing a wish or a preference - and not a studied opinion even by the standards of your own source to some extent. here is what your own source that you asked me to read admitted - "Still, I think that it's fairly safe to assume that the arsenokoitai of Paul's day were men engaging in some kind of homosexual behavior. ". So far the point from 1Cor 6 applying to homosexuality - is not all hard to see. You would have to "want" to insert other meanings into the text to wrench them out if at that point. We call that "eisegesis". It is an "any ol' excuse will do" model that does not work in Bible study. Imagine if we endorsed such a model - what non-SDA doctrine could NOT be proved using such a bend-and-wrench-to-your-preferences approach to the Bible? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Originally Posted By: SivartM While interesting, though, I'm not sure why polyamorous relationships should invalidate monogamous relationships. Do you mean "polyamorous relationships" as in three or four people having sexual relationships together? How could a person have a sexual relationship with two or more people and at the same time have a monogamous relationship? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted November 24, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 24, 2012 Tom, do you have any gay friends that you genuinely like being with or talking with? Do you open your arms wide to receive them and treat them as an equal and with empathy and respect? I'm not really asking you to answer this, but I only pose the questions because I find that many people can talk easily enough about loving gay people, but it's another thing entirely to actually do it. Jesus truly loved the woman caught in adultery. What did "love" mean to Jesus and what did He do as a result of His love for her? And do we really love gay people if we don't do the same as Jesus did? What if, instead, we give them the impression (or perhaps even tell me) that practicing homosexuality is OK with God? I'm not for a moment suggesting that every Christian ought to tell every gay person they meet that being gay is evil and that they need to change or become straight. In fact, that's exactly what I'm NOT saying. I'm saying that we need to do it as Christ did. He first showed that He genuinely loved the person and was his/her friend in the truest, profoundest sense. He was willing to die for that person. And yes, I do. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 I want to say, as I have said before. I so appreciate John317 testimony. There is so much I do not understand about this issue, and so many contradictory 'facts' I can say this, a friend of mine once said....""Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." http://bible.cc/matthew/11-28.htm Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted November 24, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 24, 2012 Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 24, 2012 Members Share Posted November 24, 2012 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 A good reply Stan and I agree with you...I leave it in the hands of God. I have worked with gays, bisexual and lesbians for many years as friends, fellow workers and bosses, even a hospital chaplain. Religious belief as being for or against sexual activity never comes up, but then neither does it with all my 'strait' friends, workers and bosses!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I would like to touch on a couple things I have read throughout this thread and am just not awake enough to go through the whole quoting process When I first left home at 18 I moved to Vancouver and threw myself into the local music scene. 80's metal scene. THat scene was the ultimate in debauchery. At the same time I worked in the food industry and my girlfriend was a hairdresser. Every single male we both worked with was gay. I ten not to think of those guys as my gay friends but more as friends that were gay. I went to gay bars with them and I went to parties with them and other than never having sex with another male I lived their lifestyle with them. I can tell you straight up that the things my band mates and myself did as straight guys were way way more debaucherous and nasty than anything I ever saw in the gay community. As a matter of fact my friends who were gay used to give me lectures on morality. That is a nutshell version of what I saw and experienced at that time of my life, but that time is why I can not ever comprehend why gay people are so condemned. Of course there are gay people that are sleeping around, doing drugs, irresponsible and dangerous. There are just as many straight people doing the same thing. I think its way more about the person you are than the gener you sleep with, fall in love with, that determines the quality of your spiritual wellness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I've been out of the loop for several days; and just spent the past hour catching up on this thread. SivartM, John 317, MT, Stan, Tom, and Gerry - I really like the love and concern you put into your posts - no judging, openly questioning things they haven't experienced or don't understand. I am in the camp that believes homosexuality is no more "serious" of a sin than lying, stealing, gossiping, or heterosexual fornication. Yet I know people in good standing with the church that practice (sometimes indiscreetly) one or more of these things; yet I don't see 12-page threads dedicated to their sins. IMO, people are more passionate about condemning LBGTs because they find it disgusting to the point that they will never knowingly associate with them. I would be willing to bet that everyone on this thread at least knows one ar two members of the LBGT community (and is probably friends with them) without knowing it. Many LGBTs know when to keep their mouths shut about their private life for fear of being ostracized more than they already are. I commend SivartM and John317 for their open and honest discussion of the issue - especially John317, cuz he's been there. I don't consider evangelism to be beating people up with the Bible and the SoP. I consider evangelism being a supportive friend to anyone who accepts me as a friend, problems, perversions, pet sins, and all. I am not gay, but I'm a pretty weird guy. Like MT, I have actively participated in activities that my gay friends consider absolutely disgusting, immoral and abhorrent. I have very few people whom I call "good friends" as it is. If I filtered out all those who have known sin in their lives, I would have no friends at all (or a spouse, or children, brothers, sisters, etc). If we are being honest with ourselves, I think we would have to admit that most of us struggle with certain sins. We accept the people that have these struggles - unless that sin is homosexuality. Many say that God hates homosexuality. He also hates divorce. Yet He allows it. We accept people into fellowship who are divorced or in the process of getting one. We support them and sympathize with them. IMO, that is what the gay Christian is asking for. They are not asking you to encourage them in their sin; they just want to be accepted "as they are" - just like Jesus accepts the rest of us as we are. Maybe if gay Christians were welcomed into more social groups than just gay groups, they would be more encouraged to engage in an "alternative" (what most of us would call "normal") lifestyle. I have previously stated that I am not gay. But I have gay friends and gay family members. I love them. I am a sinner; and I want people to accept me the way I am. I am much more likely to respect the "preaching" of someone that I know loves and accepts me the way I am than that of someone I know is just judging and condemning me. Does this rambling make any sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Well said Joe - very well said, all of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 MT, Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 25, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 25, 2012 How could a person have a sexual relationship with two or more people and at the same time have a monogamous relationship? Originally Posted By: SivartM A better phrasing would have been "I'm not sure why the polyamorous relationships of some should invalidate the monogamous relationships of others." Because in the Christian LGBT community there are many people in committed monogamous relationships, and people who wait for sex until marriage. Are you saying that you believe there are many Christian gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals who wait until they are married before they have sex? What is your belief based on? Bisexuals, of course, are people who are sexually/romantically attracted to both males and females. Virtually all of them have sexual relationships with both sexes. Some people are attracted to their own sex, yet they may never act out their sexual desires. But those people aren't "gay" or "bisexual," etc. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 25, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 25, 2012 ...I am in the camp that believes homosexuality is no more "serious" of a sin than lying, stealing, gossiping, or heterosexual fornication. I agree with you that those are all sins, but one of the big issues surrounding the topic of homosexuality in the church is the fact that we see more and more church members who claim they don't see homosexuality as a sin at all. One major difference between homosexuality and the other sins you list above is that very few Christians defend lying, stealing, gossiping, adultery and heterosexual fornatication as OK with God. But today we see more and more church members who accept homosexuality as OK with God. And more importantly, there is a movement today which is devoted to persuading the church to accept homosexuality. Would you agree that this distinction makes it important for Seventh-day Adventists to discuss and study in order to know what the Bible teaches about it? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 26, 2012 Members Share Posted November 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: JoeMo ...I am in the camp that believes homosexuality is no more "serious" of a sin than lying, stealing, gossiping, or heterosexual fornication. I agree with you that those are all sins, but one of the big issues surrounding the topic of homosexuality in the church is the fact that we see more and more church members who claim they don't see homosexuality as a sin at all. One major difference between homosexuality and the other sins you list above is that very few Christians defend lying, stealing, gossiping, adultery and heterosexual fornatication as OK with God. But today we see more and more church members who accept homosexuality as OK with God. And more importantly, there is a movement today which is devoted to persuading the church to accept homosexuality. Would you agree that this distinction makes it important for Seventh-day Adventists to discuss and study in order to know what the Bible teaches about it? Excellent points John Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 Many say that God hates homosexuality. He also hates divorce. Yet He allows it. We accept people into fellowship who are divorced or in the process of getting one. We support them and sympathize with them. IMO, that is what the gay Christian is asking for. They are not asking you to encourage them in their sin; they just want to be accepted "as they are" - just like Jesus accepts the rest of us as we are. Maybe if gay Christians were welcomed into more social groups than just gay groups, they would be more encouraged to engage in an "alternative" (what most of us would call "normal") lifestyle. Are you referring here to gays who are openly/publicly practicing homosexuality? Isn't there a difference between a church member who is struggling to overcome sin, and a church member who denies that homosexuality (or any other sin) is a sin and wants people to accept his/her sin as a normal way of life? I've been going to SDA churches all my life, including (from time to time) during the years when I was practicing homosexuality. But I never suggested that my practices were OK with God and I never asked or expected SDAs to consider homosexuality a behavior in harmony with the Bible. I never believed that I should be baptized while continuing to live as a gay person, i.e, practicing homosexuality. But today that has changed, and changed dramatically. Today there are gay people who want to be accepted into the church while continuing to practice homosexuality. They have no intention of stopping. And what's more, they are encouraged by some very influential thought-leaders in our church. Do you believe they should be accepted into the church as members? As elders and pastors? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 That is a nutshell version of what I saw and experienced at that time of my life, but that time is why I can not ever comprehend why gay people are so condemned. Gay people shouldn't be condemned at all. God loves all people, including gays, but He hates sin, and homosexuality is a sin. It's extremely important for the church (and society in general) to see the difference between hating people and hating the sins that people practice. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 That is a nutshell version of what I saw and experienced at that time of my life, but that time is why I can not ever comprehend why gay people are so condemned. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 I have worked with gays, bisexual and lesbians for many years as friends, fellow workers and bosses, even a hospital chaplain. Religious belief as being for or against sexual activity never comes up, but then neither does it with all my 'strait' friends, workers and bosses!!! Co-Aspen, there can be no doubt that it would come up with those gays and bisexuals if you were a young, good-looking guy at the beach or at a gay dance or gay bar. It would work the same way as it would if you were a young, beautiful girl or woman at places where those "straight" friends would see you. The difference is that two gay men are both influenced by male hormone and have male brains. Gay or bisexual males who are attracted to each other typically have a far different way of coming together than a man and a woman. My point here is simply that observing gays/bisexuals from the outside is far different from experiencing the "gay life" from inside. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I've been out of the loop for several days; and just spent the past hour catching up on this thread. SivartM, John 317, MT, Stan, Tom, and Gerry - I really like the love and concern you put into your posts - no judging, openly questioning things they haven't experienced or don't understand. I am in the camp that believes homosexuality is no more "serious" of a sin than lying, stealing, gossiping, or heterosexual fornication. So then no fornication "club", nor a "stealing club", nor a "homosexual club" at La Sierra or Andrews - where "evangelism is not allowed" so that it can be a "safe place" for "thieves" or a safe place for "fornicators" - even in your model right? Looks like the 1Cor 6 grouping to me. And isn't that what this thread was about to start with? No homosexual student club allowed at La Sierra? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 NKJV - 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Those verses have become some of my favorite in all the Bible, especially the part about "such were some of you. But you were washed,.. sanctified... justified in the name of the Lord and by the Spirit of God." I know it's true, and so can anyone who is chained to any habitual sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 For instance, if I am living in adultery with another woman, and if I plan to go on living that way, I am going to try to avoid the moral judgments against what I'm doing. However, if I have stopped living that way, and if God has forgiven me and freed me from that life, I will welcome the moral judgments against adultery. I will realize they are true, and I will love truth. I will only hate the Truth and not come to the Truth, if I want my sin and therefore feel rightly condemened by the Truth. Originally Posted By: SivartM If you are committing adultery, you should feel guilty with or without moral judgments, because you're betraying your spouse's trust. Who is a homosexual hurting? He's sinning against God and he's hurting himself (whether he realizes it or not). He's making decisions that will keep him out of God's eternal kingdom. That's according to the Bible. Please read all of the following text: 1 Cor. 6:9-16 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. [12] "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything. [13] "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. [14] And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. [15] Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! [16] Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh." The Bible teaches that if I am sowing to the flesh, I will die. Homosexuals are sowing to the flesh. It is the same when people practice any sin. See Romans 8. Romans 8:6-11 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. [7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [8] Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [10] But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 Thank you, Stan. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 26, 2012 I understand perfectly, SivartM. They resent the moral judgments because they are resisting them. Originally Posted By: SivartM You may understand yourself perfectly, but apparently not the LGBT Christians I know. Do you know bisexual and transsexual Christians who understand and accept the Bible's teaching that sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin? Could you give an estimate of how many LGBT Christians you know personally? Are these LGBT committed Christians who are struggling against LGBT behavior? Or have they into given their desires and believe there's nothing wrong with them? As you know, I am gay but am not practicing any more. I stopped practicing about the beginning of 2004. I practiced from 1968 to 2004. I knew personally thousands of gays, bisexuals, and some transsexuals. I belonged to a gay church and was very active in the gay community in a major city of Southern California. I went to gay bars, gay baths, gay beaches, and was in the gay contingent of the Young Socialist Alliance. I had sex during that time with at least a thousand men, and I knew other gays who did the same kinds of things that I was doing. Most of the men I had sex with were either bisexual or considered themselves "straight." About 1995, I started attending a Homosexual Anonymous group where we tried to encourage each other to stop homosexual practices. Those meetings never did help me. During most of that time, I occasionally attended SDA churches. I never had a bad experience in the SDA church, and I was never treated badly by an SDA. I have a Bible study to go to, so I will continue writing when I get back. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 For instance, if I am living in adultery with another woman, and if I plan to go on living that way, I am going to try to avoid the moral judgments against what I'm doing. However, if I have stopped living that way, and if God has forgiven me and freed me from that life, I will welcome the moral judgments against adultery. I will realize they are true, and I will love truth. I will only hate the Truth and not come to the Truth, if I want my sin and therefore feel rightly condemened by the Truth. What do you think? Absolutely correct! And you would not want an adulterer's "club" to be formed where "evangelism is not allowed" because it needs to be a "Safe place for adulterers". Rather you would want the opposite - an "adulterers outreach" club where those who were rescued from that kind of living - proclaim the power of the Gospel to change lives and help others find a way to have that freedom from slavery to sin - It is the exact opposite of "let's circle the wagons around adultery so those adulterers who think it is sin and those adulterers who do not know it is sin - will all feel safe and not condemned - just encouraged. And lets rehearse some Bible ideas on why adultery might be a good thing in case anyone in our group is confronted by a Christian who thinks the Bible is against adultery." I think we can all see that point. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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