Stan Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Thanks my friend, Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 Have you seen the film "Seventh-Gay Adventists"? I have seen a film with that name, but I don't know if it's the same film you're talking about. What does the film say about homosexuality or gays? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: SivartM Have you seen the film "Seventh-Gay Adventists"? I have seen a film with that name, but I don't know if it's the same film you're talking about. What does the film say about homosexuality or gays? It's the one that is currently on tour produced by Stephen Ayer and Daneen Akers. It follows the stories of three gay Adventist couples and their experiences. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 What does the film say about homosexuality or gays? Originally Posted By: SivartM It's the one that is currently on tour produced by Stephen Ayer and Daneen Akers. It follows the stories of three gay Adventist couples and their experiences. What does it say about homosexuality or gays? Does it have any particular message or viewpoint in regard to homosexuality? I was trying to look at a trailer online, but it kept getting stuck, so I couldn't understand it clearly. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: John3:17 What does the film say about homosexuality or gays? Originally Posted By: SivartM It's the one that is currently on tour produced by Stephen Ayer and Daneen Akers. It follows the stories of three gay Adventist couples and their experiences. What does it say about homosexuality or gays? Does it have any particular message or viewpoint in regard to homosexuality? I was trying to look at a trailer online, but it kept getting stuck, so I couldn't understand it clearly. It's not making a statement. All of the Adventist couples are "practicing" but it doesn't make an argument in favor or against it. It shows their struggles to maintain their Adventist identities. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'm not even the slightest bit interested in doing anything that would have a tendency to suck me back into the practice of homosexuality or any other kind of sexual immorality. I frankly don't trust myself to spend a lot of time with gay people, because I know what has happened before when I did it. One time, about 1993, after I had stopped living that way for several years, I ended up going back into it until 2004. For me to do that, would be about like an alcoholic going into a bar to smell the beer and whiskey and expecting God to keep him from drinking. So I don't play with sin, and homosexuality is sin. I have to be very careful even if or when my purpose is to talk to them about Christ. I know how crafty Satan is, and I know my own weaknesses. I went back to North Carolina this past July and visited one of my former lovers for about a week. But I didn't stay with him. That would have been stupid and been the same as asking Satan to tempt me. So I stayed the nights at a motel. He knew it was best too. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 It's not making a statement. All of the Adventist couples are "practicing" but it doesn't make an argument in favor or against it. It shows their struggles to maintain their Adventist identities. OK, so are you saying the film is about gay SDAs who are struggling not to practice and are losing the struggle, or are these gays trying to maintain their SDA identities even as they are intentionally practicing homosexuality? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 I would like to see Stephen Ayer and Daneen Akers make a film about Adventists who used to be practicing gays. Are Stephen and Daneer gay? Are they SDA? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: SivartM It's not making a statement. All of the Adventist couples are "practicing" but it doesn't make an argument in favor or against it. It shows their struggles to maintain their Adventist identities. OK, so are you saying the film is about gay SDAs who are struggling not to practice and are losing the struggle, or are these gays trying to maintain their SDA identities even as they are intentionally practicing homosexuality? They are all in committed, monogamous relationships. So they are not struggling with the desire not to have homosexual relationships (though they do touch on that desire several times in the film. They are struggling to maintain their Adventist identities while being in loving marriages with their partners. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 OK, but my question is, are they practicing homosexuals? (I see that the answer is yes.) Are any of them lesbians or bi-sexual or transsexual? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I would like to see Stephen Ayer and Daneen Akers make a film about Adventists who used to be practicing gays. Are Stephen and Daneer gay? Are they SDA? They are SDA. They are married to each other and they are the opposite sex, so no, they are not gay. Well, the point of the movie is to draw attention and prompt discussion about people who are not accepted by the Adventist church at large. Ex-gay Adventists are hardly disenfranchised by the church. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 Ex-gay Adventists are hardly disenfranchised by the church. So the point of the film, then, evidently, is that practicing homosexuals are "disenfranchised" by the SDA Church? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 OK, but my question is, are they practicing homosexuals? (I see that the answer is yes.) Are any of them lesbians or bi-sexual or transsexual? There are two gay couples and one lesbian couple. I don't think any of them are bisexual. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 Ex-gay Adventists are hardly disenfranchised by the church. I don't consider myself as an "ex-gay." Some people who used to be practicing gays no longer consider themselves as gay but that is not true of many others. If I was "ex-gay," I wouldn't need to be concerned about going back into the practice. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 Well, the point of the movie is to draw attention and prompt discussion about people who are not accepted by the Adventist church at large. Ex-gay Adventists are hardly disenfranchised by the church. I take it,then,that the point of the film is that SDAs who are practicing homosexuality are "disenfranchised"-- another way of saying the film takes the view that SDAs who practice homosexuality are being mistreated in some way. But is that right? The truth is that church members who are intentionally practicing homosexuality-- whether they are in a "loving" sexual relationship or not--- should be disfellowshipped. That is what Saint Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write in the NT. It is one thing to be a gay person who is trying his best to resist and overcome homosexuality--- it is quite another to practice the behavior and want the church to accept it as not a sin. That would be the same-- wouldn't it?-- as an adulterer, drunkard, prostitute, or thief continuing to practice those sins at the same time that they are expecting (even demanding?) that they be accepted as a member in good standing with the church. Would they be right to say they were disenfranchised by the church if the church refused to accept their sins as OK with God? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 The truth is that church members who are intentionally practicing homosexuality-- whether they are in a "loving" sexual relationship or not--- should be disfellowshipped. That is why the gay Adventists in the film are struggling to maintain their Adventist identities. That's why the gay students at Adventist schools must struggle to maintain their Adventist identities. It's difficult to sustain a relationship with a church that does not want you. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 The church does want them. God wants them. But they will be lost despite God's love and despite God's wanting them if they continue to practice those sins. Disfellowshipping is sometimes the only way people get the message. What is the message? The message is that homosexuality practices are sinful and can't be accepted in the church. Look at the message that the church of Paul's day was trying to communicate in 1 Cor. 5 to the man who was having sexual relations with his father's wife. This what it took for him to understand how dangerous his situation was. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 That's why the gay students at Adventist schools must struggle to maintain their Adventist identities. It's difficult to sustain a relationship with a church that does not want you. You and they may not realize it but by continuing their homosexual practices, they are essentially saying they really don't want the church--- at least not the church that God died to save from sin and is purifying. It might be best for them to leave the church if they don't want to follow the teachings of the church. Then at least they will learn what it's like to live outside the church. Perhaps this would teach them to appreciate the church in a way that it's impossible for them appreciate while living in sin and expecting the church to accept it. Their living in that way actually shows they don't have a real appreciation for either Christ or the church. It is like a man who shows disrespect for his wife and still feels that she ought to treat him as if he is being good to her. The best thing that could happen in that situation is to show him that she won't accept that kind of treatment. That isn't marriage. So if he must be separated from her for a while, he might wake up to his true condition and appreciate being with her. Do you see my point? It is what happened to the prodigal son that Jesus talked about. He didn't appreciate his father's home and his father's love until he was gone from it for a while. That is really part of what disfellowshipping is all about. It isn't a punishment or a way of showing a person that the church hates them. The Bible and SOP both teach that it's for the purpose of a person's ultimate salvation. It's a last resort but sometimes unfortunately it has to be done if people insist on continuing in their sinful course. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2012 I take it,then,that the point of the film is that SDAs who are practicing homosexuality are "disenfranchised"-- another way of saying the film takes the view that SDAs who practice homosexuality are being mistreated in some way. But is that right? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 appreciate how both of you are keeping this civil. Thanks Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: SivartM That's why the gay students at Adventist schools must struggle to maintain their Adventist identities. It's difficult to sustain a relationship with a church that does not want you. You and they may not realize it but by continuing their homosexual practices, they are essentially saying they really don't want the church--- at least not the church that God died to save from sin and is purifying. ... Do you see my point? It is what happened to the prodigal son that Jesus talked about. He didn't appreciate his father's home and his father's love until he was gone from it for a while. That is really part of what disfellowshipping is all about. It isn't a punishment or a way of showing a person that the church hates them. The Bible and SOP both teach that it's for the purpose of a person's ultimate salvation. It's a last resort but sometimes unfortunately it has to be done if people insist on continuing in their sinful course. John's statement above reminds me of the ANN article that links to the official SDA position statements on homosexuality and same-sex marriage. http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post585811 That is a great example of the contrast in differences that we have been consistently identifying all along in this thread. From one POV it is mean spirited and unkind to take a stand for the Bible view of this subject (- unless you are willing to bend-wrench the Bible statements on this subject beyond recognition.) From the other POV it is choosing against the Adventist faith - to try to marry the 1Cor 6 practices to Adventism (as if Paul is defining Christian practices or lifestyles in 1Cor 6 that should be defended and protected against "evangelism".) in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 28, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 28, 2012 I appreciate John317's comments here. He has differentiated well the difference between being gay and practising what the Bible forbids. Thanks once again, John317 :) Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 John and Sivart, Thanks for your frank, open and CIVIL conversation. I thought I was fairly well-versed in the subject; but I'm learning quite a bit from the conversation. John, you mentioned a parallel to the prodigal son leaving home and gays being disfellowshipped. There is a difference here. The prodigal son left home voluntarily. People who are disfellowshipped are essentially kicked out and shunned. This is just my opinion, but being kicked out of the one organization which is your conduit for a relationship with God is discouraging, not encouraging. Unless these people are flaunting their homosexuality in front of the church, I would not suggest disfellowship. What I would suggest is that the people in question, like the prodigal son, "leave home" (i.e., have their names removed from the church rolls) voluntarily (or at least be presented with that option before being disfellowshipped); so they can avoid the public humiliation that accompanies the all-church business (or board) meeting that decides on disfellowship. After voluntarily and privately relinquishing their memberships, they can still attend and participate in fellowship without the embarassment and humiliation of being disfellowshipped. I was entrapped in a drug problem 35 years ago for which I would have been disfellowshipped had it been discovered. I voluntarily left the church until God delivered me from my slavery to addiction; but I never quit attending church. When people asked me about why I took my name off the books, I answered honestly. Some people shunned me; but some admired me for honoring the standards of the church. I was rebaptized and rejoined the church after I was delivered from my addictions. John, just like you must stay away from prolonged contact with your gay friends, I must do the same with my drug-using friends - the desire is still strong. I understand that homosexuality is not in the same class as drug addiction (one is the result of voluntary action, the other arguably is genetic); but IMO the suggested path is an honorable way to maintain one's privacy and honor the church's standards and integrity at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 28, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 28, 2012 Quote: I understand that homosexuality is not in the same class as drug addiction (one is the result of voluntary action, the other arguably is genetic) But the pull is just as strong... We all have something. Your suggestion, Joe, is a good one provided that one has a good working conscience. It's always a risk pointing out other people's sins. John has a ministry here in a very special way. I would trust him to be able to do that sincerely having "been there, done that". He shared his experience of how the JW brought it to his attention from the Bible and left him with it... I thought that was a loving move on the Witness' part. We do learn, don't we, from taking it from the POV of considering how we would like to be treated should we be in that person's shoes. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Gail, AMEN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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