Football and Adventism

[BobRyan]

We all know about the video on football and idol worship.

[Kevin H]

I read a couple of studies on it, one study was by a very conservative group that basically said that because of the Adventist diet the Adventist team at Battle Creek was doing a good job but Mrs. White saw it was wrong and so it stopped. The other was more moderate and more detail beyond Mrs. White quotes. It pointed out how the Battle Creek team was not doing well at all, giving scores and details about the game from papers. And it went on to point out the large amount of problems going on in all schools about football at the time. There was a lot of violence both in the game with many of the players being seriously injuried or killed. Mrs. White's statements were in line of the criticizisms of the game. Teddy Roosevelt said that unless they made the game safer that it would become illegal.

Too often we take Mrs. White's quotes out of their literarly or historic context and build all types of theories on them. Studies on her quotes on the novel shows that she was part of a movement that included Herman Melvill (the author of Moby Dick) and Nathaniel Hawthorn, and others who today we would consider fiction and novel writers, but they had the same views of "fiction" and "novels" that Mrs. White had. Either they were opposed to their own work, or there was something else that they were talking about. Some studies have shown how conservaive adventists are accepting of writings that Mrs. Whtie was actually condemming and condeming of people, some who's writings she used and recommended, that did not fit the historical context but fits our traditon of what we believe she meant.

[Robert]

Football, like all things in this world, is based on self-seeking - i.e., trying to be # 1.

[M. T. Cross]

Football, like all things in this world, is based on self-seeking - i.e., trying to be # 1.

Which is pretty much the basis for MOST Christianity. "We are right, everyone else is wrong. We are number one and until you accept that we will hammer at you with all our might"

[BobRyan]

I read a couple of studies on it, one study was by a very conservative group that basically said that because of the Adventist diet the Adventist team at Battle Creek was doing a good job but Mrs. White saw it was wrong and so it stopped. The other was more moderate and more detail beyond Mrs. White quotes. It pointed out how the Battle Creek team was not doing well at all, giving scores and details about the game from papers.

[Robert]

Here's the only thing I could find:

"There were some who were striving for the mastery (trying to be # 1), each trying to excel the other in the swift running of their bicycles. There was a spirit of strife and contention among them as to which should be the greatest. The spirit was similar to that manifested in the baseball games on the college ground. Said my Guide: 'These things are an offense to God.' " --Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 51, 52.

[Kountzer]

Something is wrong with a sport where an athlete can be maimed or suffer a brain injury at any given moment.

I like football. The only team I pay any attention to is the Houston Texans. I used to not watch them much either, but here lately they are winning. Maybe one day I'll stop watching completely. I haven't gotten there yet.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

I read a couple of studies on it, one study was by a very conservative group that basically said that because of the Adventist diet the Adventist team at Battle Creek was doing a good job but Mrs. White saw it was wrong and so it stopped. The other was more moderate and more detail beyond Mrs. White quotes. It pointed out how the Battle Creek team was not doing well at all, giving scores and details about the game from papers.

I did not find anything in Ellen White's material that gave the scores for games.

* * *

You just confirmed the point Kevin was making, the problem of reading only EGW without also understanding the context in which she wrote. The same problem also happens with Scripture. The principle addressed in this case was taking something to excess, fanaticism that loses sight of and crowds out what is really important. Its a loss of perspective. The irony is that this sort of error often ends up doing precisely that with EGW and Scripture. It leads to strange fanatical ideas on nonessentials.

Trust me, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I am not defending football. I seldom pay attention to football. I watched half of the Redskins game yesterday ( my first game watched of the season) because we had guests who were fans.

[BobRyan]

As noted above - I did find this quote --

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Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

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But there is also another one for "football" -

Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality. They are developing the same characteristics as did the games of ancient Rome. The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life, are exerting upon the youth a power to demoralize that is appalling. {AH 500.3}

Which appears to go along with this --

I could refer to chapter after chapter of the Old Testament Scriptures that contain great encouragement. These Scriptures are a treasure house of precious pearls, and all need them. How much time is spent by intelligent human beings in horse racing, cricket matches, and ball playing! But will indulgence in these sports give men a desire to know truth and righteousness? Will it keep God in their thoughts? Will it lead them to inquire, How is it with my soul? {CT 456.1}

All the powers of Satan are set in operation to hold the attention to frivolous amusements, and he is gaining his object. He is interposing his devisings between God and the soul. He will manufacture diversions to keep men from thinking about God. The world, filled with sport and pleasure loving, is always thirsting for some new interest; but how little time and thought are given to the Creator of the heavens and the earth! {CT 456.2}

Among the youth the passion for football games and other kindred selfish gratifications have been misleading in their influence. Watchfulness and prayer and daily consecration to God have not been maintained. Converse, communion with God, is life to the soul. The light has been beclouded, and it was well pleasing to Satan to have the impression go forth that notwithstanding the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of our institutions of learning, and the office of publication and the church, they fell back to be overcome by temptation. Satan and evil workers cast reflection upon God, and His name has been dishonored.... {6MR 127.1}

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Are we seeing the results of this in our churches today?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

You just confirmed the point Kevin was making, the problem of reading only EGW without also understanding the context in which she wrote.

[Tom Wetmore]

It's not about keeping score. Do you see the irony of what you just said and where this sort of tit for tat exercise leads?!?! You just reinforced my point!

This superficial approach something that really bugs me. It is reading without giving serious thought to what is read.

Here is the extremism that is a problem. The problem addressed is not with the sport or sports as a whole. It is the excess, the real harm that fanaticism causes.

The fanaticism that results is that all games and sports and recreational activities are harmful. So we eliminate sports from the physical education of our school programs. Then we end up with obesity as a very real problem. We take away things but do not replace it with something that effectively accomplishes the good that is to be achieved through sports. We assume all bad and throw the baby out with the bath water.

We see this happen in so many aspects of our life. Diet, for example. Balance and moderation are key. But we go to extremes with fanatical zeal quite like crazed sports fans, doing more harm than good. Think about any of the hot button issues in Adventism and you are likely to see this happening.

In keeping with the video in the OP, we make an idol of whatever we are obsessing about to fanatical levels. I believe that many make an idol of the so-called Adventist lifestyle. And the real hardcore fans of that Adventist lifestyle take it to ridiculous extremes very little different from hardcore sports fans.

[BobRyan]

For those who think of Football as a "safe" sport --

turn volume off...

Click play

[BobRyan]

It's not about keeping score. Do you see the irony of what you just said and where this sort of tit for tat exercise leads?!?! You just reinforced my point!

This superficial approach something that really bugs me. It is reading without giving serious thought to what is read.

Here is the extremism that is a problem. ...

Anyway...I was looking for a quote or something I could use for the positive nature of football.

Apparently you have not found one either.

in Christ,

Bob

[Q.E.D.]

We take away things but do not replace it with something that effectively accomplishes the good that is to be achieved through sports. We assume all bad and throw the baby out with the bath water.

And what good is football?

Is it the time and money spent by football fans to further the Gospel?

Is it the the valueless football drivel in the minds of those that worship football players and the outcome of games?

Is it the drugs and drinking done by players?

Is it the drugs and drinking done by the fans during the games?

Is the millions of dollars paid to the famous players?

Is it the injuries and deaths as a result of the violence of football?

Is it the physical, sexual, and mental abuse by coaches?

Oh I know. . . it's the teamwork, "The children need to learn to work together to win a foolish game".

Oh I know. . .It's the respect you learn for others, i.e. the teams and individual players, "The children need to learn to respect people and do no harm to anyone."

Oh I know. . .It's the prayer before the game, it teaches the children to pray to the Living God for victory over the opposing team.

"15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."(Luke 16:15)

Just wondering what Jesus Would Do?

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

The more brutal the sport is the better spectator sport it is for the worldly, but not the case with one of Christ's.

Did you ever watch some watching these games drinking their booze, usually beer, they begin to act as beasts as they watch it.

Physical training and exercise is a must but to do it as in most sports is not the way. Better would be the military’s way of getting men in shape and ladies now.

The games of old Rome come to mind, all to please the carnal mind and heart.

Sports are run in the ground today, it is all about money, mammon, it is disgusting to see and know of the players and the salaries and lives of such, then make them your heros by watching them. Phooey is my thinking. Better make you a garden!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

In keeping with the video in the OP, we make an idol of whatever we are obsessing about to fanatical levels. I believe that many make an idol of the so-called Adventist lifestyle. And the real hardcore fans of that Adventist lifestyle take it to ridiculous extremes very little different from hardcore sports fans.

[BobRyan]

We can choose to make an idol of good things - such as our children or our homes.

And so we expect to find both good and positive references to children and homes - as well as the negative context in situations where we make an idol of them.

So far all anyone has posted on the topic of football beyond a personal preference or wish - is the bad context. Is there no good context for it for Adventists reading the Bible and Ellen White's writings to validate the good context for football?

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

Interesting that EGW would couple football with horseracing. One can actually be dangerous to all who participate the other is mainly removed from human involvement. Doesn't appear that the warnings were directed to the dangers of playing since most horses (with the exception of Mr. Ed)can't read.What's your perspective,Bob?

[jasd]

>>the good context for football?<<

Can’t talk to Professional football, but college…, that’s another matter. Besides the enormous monie$ brought in to help fund numerous programs and alleviate the constant need for more money on any given campus – what else needs be said? Well, additionally, of course,

there is the beneficence of watching your ‘own team’ beat the cr-pola out of the others – letting one exorcise or vent all those atavistic impulses which are otherwise kept veneered by the restraints of this or that regimen.

Now, I ask, how holy righteous can that be? Ah, without measure – righteous!

Is that a good thing? You bet your sweet bippy it is. ARRGGGGGH! arrggh, arrggh, arrggh. :-)

[John317]

... Studies on her quotes on the novel shows that she was part of a movement that included Herman Melvill (the author of Moby Dick) and Nathaniel Hawthorn, and others who today we would consider fiction and novel writers, but they had the same views of "fiction" and "novels" that Mrs. White had. Either they were opposed to their own work, or there was something else that they were talking about.

Could you explain this a bit more?

What did Melville and Hawthorne say, and what views did they have, about fiction that agreed with the statements of Ellen G. White?

Also, what "movement" are you referring to?

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Some studies have shown how conservaive adventists are accepting of writings that Mrs. Whtie was actually condemming and condeming of people, some who's writings she used and recommended, that did not fit the historical context but fits our traditon of what we believe she meant.

Could you also please say more about this?

What are the writings that Ellen White condemned?

What do you personally believe she actually meant?

[John317]

"There were some who were striving for the mastery (trying to be # 1), each trying to excel the other in the swift running of their bicycles. There was a spirit of strife and contention among them as to which should be the greatest. The spirit was similar to that manifested in the baseball games on the college ground. Said my Guide: 'These things are an offense to God.' " --Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 51, 52.

Yet we know that Ellen White was not suggesting that playing baseball per se is wrong, because Ellen White herself played baseball with the students at PUC when she lived at her Elmshaven home. I heard her grand-daughter, Grace White Jacques, say that Mrs. White would sometimes take a buggy ride up to Angwin and play ball with the students there.

[Tom Wetmore]

Interesting that EGW would couple football with horseracing. One can actually be dangerous to all who participate the other is mainly removed from human involvement. Doesn't appear that the warnings were directed to the dangers of playing since most horses (with the exception of Mr. Ed)can't read.What's your perspective,Bob?

Have you noticed the person riding each of the horses? Being a jockey is more dangerous than being a boxer. Only the job of an offshore fisherman is more dangerous. http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/horsera...2213449153.html

And the risks to the horses are plenty. When the jockey breaks a leg, they fix it. When the horse breaks a leg they kill the horse. http://www.redorbit.com/news/sports/1432921/5000_reported_horse_deaths_at_race_tracks_since_2003/

But again, danger and risk of injury were, and still are, only a part of the concern.

[John317]

From my perspective, the worst things about sports is that they very often take up time that should be given to the study of God's word and thinking about spiritual subjects. They also use up lots of money that would be better spent on spreading the gospel.

[Guest]

We all know about the video on football and idol worship.

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[BobRyan]

I'm glad I don't paint my face when I watch a Panther game.

Now see - we do agree on something!

in Christ,

Bob