Football and Adventism

[BobRyan]

Yet we know that Ellen White was not suggesting that playing baseball per se is wrong, because Ellen White herself played baseball with the students at PUC when she lived at her Elmshaven home.

I agree that when Ellen White spoke about sports - she approved of some but not all.

But my shocker was when I looked specifically at her statements about football itself. I really did not expect her to single it out - and name it and then deal with it as a good or bad sport. I just assumed that the popularity for football was after her time.

But now that I am looking at those statements - I am also looking for anyone that has found a positive context for football in something she wrote.

Is there nothing that she said that recommends it? Only condemnation against it??

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Interesting that EGW would couple football with horseracing. One can actually be dangerous to all who participate the other is mainly removed from human involvement. Doesn't appear that the warnings were directed to the dangers of playing since most horses (with the exception of Mr. Ed)can't read.What's your perspective,Bob?

Have you noticed the person riding each of the horses? Being a jockey is more dangerous than being a boxer. Only the job of an offshore fisherman is more dangerous. http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/horsera...2213449153.html

And the risks to the horses are plenty. When the jockey breaks a leg, they fix it. When the horse breaks a leg they kill the horse. http://www.redorbit.com/news/sports/1432921/5000_reported_horse_deaths_at_race_tracks_since_2003/

But again, danger and risk of injury were, and still are, only a part of the concern.

Here's "The rub".

Suppose we have a "men's ministry" event that asks that all the men in church get together and go to a horse race. Would we argue "well yes but isn't horse racing dangerous for the Jockey?". OR might we say "Hey - we don't think that is a very good men's ministry event"?

Now replace "horse racing" with "superbowl party" and you have the problem in a nutshell.

Unless that illusive reference to positive football is found.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Interesting that EGW would couple football with horseracing. One can actually be dangerous to all who participate the other is mainly removed from human involvement. Doesn't appear that the warnings were directed to the dangers of playing since most horses (with the exception of Mr. Ed)can't read.What's your perspective,Bob?

I agree - there is danger involved there.

But my concern is that given that both are mentioned in Ellen White's writings - and so far I have not found the "positive context" for them -- how likely is it that we should be turning either one of those sports into a "men's ministry event"??

Seems like there is an elephant in the living room some place.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"There were some who were striving for the mastery (trying to be # 1), each trying to excel the other in the swift running of their bicycles. There was a spirit of strife and contention among them as to which should be the greatest. The spirit was similar to that manifested in the baseball games on the college ground. Said my Guide: 'These things are an offense to God.' " --Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 51, 52.

Yet we know that Ellen White was not suggesting that playing baseball per se is wrong, because Ellen White herself played baseball .....

John, I personally don't agree with your analogy. i.e., Ellen White played certain sports therefore it can't be sin.

Ellen White isn't our example. Just because she did certain things doesn't mean that they were good & righteous. Keep in mind the following:

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

Okay, baseball seems innocent, right?

Turn to Luke 22:24 ...a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said...27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

In our sinful world "the greatest" is the one being served. In God's kingdom "the greatest" is the server.

Why? Because God's love is not self-seeking. Everything outside of agape is sin.

Sports are all based on "winning" or as Ellen said, "striving for the mastery". It's about who will be the greatest. That's based not on agape, but self-love.

Self-love is not the fulfillment of the law. Self-love is the fulfillment of iniquity - our bent-to-self.

Agape is the ingredient we need to fulfill the law. Hence, "agape is the fulfillment of the law."

[Robert]

Here's Jack Sequeira's view:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self (who will be the greatest) and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.”

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[Robert]

Everything outside of agape is sin.

You see the law of God examines your motive. It not only looks at the outward acts, it also looks at the motive.

You see a number of sporting events are done for charity. You pay for the food & the seat, etc. What's collected goes to charity.

Sounds wonderful - a good deed, but is it?

How does the law view such things? Remember that it looks at the motive.

Here's Ellen White:

"The commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

So the law looks at your motive. It asks why are you doing what you are doing?

Now look at this statement:

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

As you know, you can do the right thing outwardly, but for the wrong motive inwardly.

Having a sporting events for charity is good outwardly - it brings the praise of men, but inwardly it's sin because the players & supporters are "striving for the mastery...as to which should be the greatest". That's sin and defiles the outward act, which in itself is for a good purpose.

[Tom Wetmore]

Here's "The rub".

Suppose we have a "men's ministry" event that asks that all the men in church get together and go to a horse race. Would we argue "well yes but isn't horse racing dangerous for the Jockey?". OR might we say "Hey - we don't think that is a very good men's ministry event"?

Now replace "horse racing" with "superbowl party" and you have the problem in a nutshell.

Unless that illusive reference to positive football is found.

in Christ,

Bob

You, my friend, seem to be the master of missing the point...

But let me follow you down your path a few steps. Think of the fan base. Which is more likely in the average congregation? How many horse racing fans do you know? How many football fans do you know? Without value/moral judgment, which fan group would you expect to draw enough of a gathering to make it a social event?

[Gibs]

There is 23 statements on this subject by EGW and you need only type in "the love of God in the soul". Here is just one and we can have His Agape' love.

""These things saith He that hath the seven stars." These words show the origin of the message. Then a plain truth is stated. "I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead." With God, outward show weighs nothing. The outward form of religion, without the love of God in the soul, is worthless. {1888 1796.2}

"Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die." This is our work. There are many ready to die spiritually, and the Lord calls upon us to strengthen them. God's people are to be firm to duty. They are to be bound together by the bonds of Christian fellowship, and are to be strengthened in the faith by speaking often to one another about the precious truth entrusted to them. Never are they to quarrel and condemn. They are to unite upon the importance of obedience to God's law. {1888 1796.3}

"If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." There must be a waking up among our people. Those who abound in the love of God will not go into apostasy. They will not lose their faith in the truth. {1888 1797.1}

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with Me in white; for they are worthy." There are today on the earth a faithful few who love God supremely and their neighbor as themselves. {1888 1797.2}

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." {1888 1797.3}

When we have the "love of God in the soul" then we have the love that is totally dead of self and alive in the Spirit and our love is as His love and so the law of love is in us and is part of us. It is done as only the love of God can do. It is done as the thing we most desire to do!

In more than one of the 24 reads on this of hers she makes it very clear, self must be completely killed! This is the crux of the whole matter, self must die. Self was dead in Jesus Christ or He could never have laid down His life for us.

When we totally surrender our life of self, then is when we have come to have eternal life!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

With "the love of God in the soul" none, not one of the professional sports will have any kind of place in the Christians heart and soul. Those are out and gone.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Seems to me that if one sticks around here long enough there will be little besides breathing that is not a sin.....

[Naomi]

EC, sure it's not? LOL

[M. T. Cross]

Very well could be..........

[Naomi]

Well, as for me, I still enjoy hockey, basketball, football and horseracing ... among many other things

[Woody]

Quote:

In keeping with the video in the OP, we make an idol of whatever we are obsessing about to fanatical levels. I believe that many make an idol of the so-called Adventist lifestyle. And the real hardcore fans of that Adventist lifestyle take it to ridiculous extremes very little different from hardcore sports fans.

[Woody]

Seems to me that if one sticks around here long enough there will be little besides breathing that is not a sin.....

[Gibs]

We show who we are of by the entertainment we choose, and the rougher the sport the more it is loved by the worldling. If blood is shed it is even loved more.

That shows the love of what? You got it right if it came to your mind as to mine!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

"Those who hold fast their faith unto the end will come forth from the furnace of trial as fine gold seven times purified. . . . When in trouble, remember that faith tried in the furnace of affliction is more precious than gold tried with fire. . . . {CTr 199.4}

Do you suppose that after Christ gave His precious life to redeem the beings He created He would fail to give them sufficient power to enable them to overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony? He has power to save every individual. At the time of His ascension He said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” For our redemption all power is given to Him who stood at the head of humanity. For nearly six weeks the Sinless One fought a battle with the powers of darkness in the wilderness of temptation, overcoming not on His account, but on our account, thus making it possible for every son and daughter of Adam to overcome through the merit of His sinlessness. . . . {CTr 199.5}

Only those who practice holiness in this life will see the King in His beauty. Put away all vain, trifling talk, and everything of a frivolous and sensational nature. Do not engross your mind with thoughts of worldly entertainments and pleasures. Engage in the work of saving your soul. If you should lose your soul, it would have been better for you never to have been born. But you need not lose your soul. You may use every moment of this God-given life to His name’s glory. Strengthen yourself to resist the powers of darkness, that they shall not obtain a victory over you.—Manuscript 110, 1901 (Sermons and Talks, vol. 2, pp. 174-176). {CTr 199.6}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Seems to me that if one sticks around here long enough there will be little besides breathing that is not a sin.....

Well, you are right and that's my whole point in presenting the good news that you have been delivered from under law. Why? Because none of us are without sin (see 1 John 1:8 and even Ellen White).

Personally, for me, I'm not into sports. Maybe a little tennis (for about 10 min). I see sports for what it is - "who is the greatest", but since you aren't under the law and since your experience is not mine, you are free to participate in sports if you can do that with a clear conscience. The best teacher, after all, is experience.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Seems to me that if one sticks around here long enough there will be little besides breathing that is not a sin.....

Again, guys, I understand. And understand me, we are not under law because under law anything outside "agape" is sin. You don't stand a chance, but that doesn't mean that participating is competitive sports isn't technically sin.

God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. Man's judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are.

Sin is sin, but some are worse than others. Are you guys ready to see the really bad ones? Here goes:

The drunkard is despised, and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven

Most SDA churches do not have members who are drunkards, right? Well, as bad as that is there's worse.

while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love (agape) which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe.

Notice "pride" & "coveting"....My football team is better than yours! What's that? Pride - I'm a winner, you are a looser. Get my drift? That's what? Pride - I'm better than you. My team crushed your team.

According to Ellen White this type of mindset is worse than the gross sins we see from day to day.

He who falls into some of the grosser sins (adultery, murder, theft, drunkenness, etc) may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ, and the infinite blessings He came to give.

Now when you look at this spiritually pride can be

1] I belong to the right church (SDA) (i.e., I'm better than you)

2] I keep all the commandments (I'm more holy than you)

So sin is anything that has selfishness in it. Hence sin is the love of self and is manifested by self-seeking and pride. These, says Ellen White, are the especially bad sins compared to other sins that we say day in and day out.

[Kountzer]

http://www.adventistreview.org/2001-1525/story2.html

[CoAspen]

Seems to me that if one sticks around here long enough there will be little besides breathing that is not a sin.....

You're catching on!!! We need to spend our lives defining everything that could possibly be a 'sin'......that way we will know when we are 'being good'! It's called 'navel gazing'!

[Gibs]

If we have His Spirit, Divine Nature He will convict of sin if we can hear Him. Many cannot it seems. It is a still small voice within that speaks to our hearts.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

Seems to me that if one sticks around here long enough there will be little besides breathing that is not a sin.....

Depends on exactly what you are breathing in...

But quite seriously, for some, everything is sin, because if it is at all possible to sin in an activity it is forever to be banned and avoided lest one cross that line.

It is quite like the Jewish fence laws instituted by the rabbis around the Torah to prevent the people from accidentally transgressing the Torah. I think maybe we as Adventists have outdone that by our own man-made Adventist lifestyle rules to help make us pure and sinless.

[skyblue888]

Years ago I remember reading a quote saying that "tennis" was a species of Satan. Same as football and all violent sports. I guess hokey is too as all competitive sports are.

sky

[skyblue888]

Can you imagine any competitive sport among the angels or among the inhabitants of the worlds afar?