Football and Adventism

[BobRyan]

Since this is a long thread - and since it may be that someone is hoping for a quote from Ellen White - to which they can post the knee-jerk claim "out of context" -- I will try to provide some quotes so they can get that auto-response post going.

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Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality. They are developing the same characteristics as did the games of ancient Rome. The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life, are exerting upon the youth a power to demoralize that is appalling. {AH 500.3}

Among the youth the passion for football games and other kindred selfish gratifications have been misleading in their influence. Watchfulness and prayer and daily consecration to God have not been maintained. Converse, communion with God, is life to the soul. The light has been beclouded, and it was well pleasing to Satan to have the impression go forth that notwithstanding the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of our institutions of learning, and the office of publication and the church, they fell back to be overcome by temptation. Satan and evil workers cast reflection upon God, and His name has been dishonored.... {6MR 127.1}

[CoAspen]

Trolling...trolling....find them, post them...

(think of the Theme from Rawhide...)

[Tom Wetmore]

Of all the problems in the world, isn't it amazing that this topic generates so much attention here!?!?

[Naomi]

Yes Tom, simply amazing

[Ted Oplinger]

1. You provide not one single quote to prove either of your points. Instructive.

2. There is no statement by Ellen White stating that we should not tell fellow Adventists about messages she has been given by God - for the church. And I think we both know that - hence you provide no quote for your point.

Instructive for the unbiased objective reader.

3. You claim that you found a "context" issue with my quote... without actually pointing to an actual problem. ...

Again.. "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

1. I was not trying to prove points. I merely wrote of what annoys me of this subject, and what does not....but you knew this, didn't you?

2. The annoying reference was about those who do not maintain a righteous usage of SOP...but perhaps that has pricked you again?

3. I made no claim about a context issue; I merely made a general statement regarding usage outside of context...but you knew that also, didn't you?

I have to agree with Tom and Naomi here - of all the issues facing the Remnant, your bugaboo is.....this thread, and and taking issue with people who might deem this topic of much lesser stature in the grand scheme of things than you desire?

MOST instructive, Bob. Indeed, most instructive...

[lazarus]

Just had a quick look through this thread and I have finally figured out why I feel so bad when I watch the Redskins! All along I thought it was because they kept losing.

[M. T. Cross]

Of all the problems in the world, isn't it amazing that this topic generates so much attention here!?!?

Mmmm yeah, but it is a refreshing change from gay bashing and womens ordination.

Though hockey is a much more violent sport, you would think that he would have gone after that....

[Tom Wetmore]

EGW must have been secretly a hockey fan...

[Kevin H]

Football was much more violent when Mrs. White wrote about it, she was just one of many voices with the same concern. Just like how she joined with many famous writers of her day, such as Nathanial Hawthorne and Herman Melville, about novels.

We like to take her words out of the historical context. We like to reject the counsel she gave to people such as Stephen Haskell, and discussing Testimony 11 and the reform dress, on how she wanted us to use her writings. Finally we replace her counsel that we rejected by forcing her words to meet the views of the 1919 Philadelphia Bible Conference.

[phkrause]

Football was much more violent when Mrs. White wrote about it, she was just one of many voices with the same concern. Just like how she joined with many famous writers of her day, such as Nathanial Hawthorne and Herman Melville, about novels.

We like to take her words out of the historical context. We like to reject the counsel she gave to people such as Stephen Haskell, and discussing Testimony 11 and the reform dress, on how she wanted us to use her writings. Finally we replace her counsel that we rejected by forcing her words to meet the views of the 1919 Philadelphia Bible Conference.

Good points Kevin.

[Gustave]

If Football is now considered "ok" for SDA's to participate in ( or view ) because it's changed....

...Would the same also apply to pork given it's now better for you than Chicken or beef?

...Did Ellen White believe football was an "intrinsic evil" and did she ever over-ride or usurp her teaching on it?

[BobRyan]

Good points Gustave.

[BobRyan]

What I find annoying are those who cherry pick a prophet's testimony to slam others who don't believe the same way they do, ignoring the context of her writing.

What I find annoying is the sanctimonious attitude taken with regard to the use of Ellen G. White, whose usage of her works is outside the prophetic testimony of how her works should be used -

[BobRyan]

Football was much more violent when Mrs. White wrote about it, she was just one of many voices with the same concern.

Is it your claim that it has been proven to be safer since Ellen White died? Or that the principles of the Roman games are no longer an element in the game?

Is it a claim from "fact" or are you simply "wishing" something to be the case?

Or are you still on the point that you should not be expected to prove that the accusations you make have substance?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Football depicted as idolatry and pagan.

[CoAspen]

Dude, you really need a life!! Can we help you out with maybe some suggestions for a new hobby...anyone got some ideas for Bob here? Be a good buddy and help him out!

[M. T. Cross]

Football depicted as idolatry and pagan.

You say pagan like its a bad thing.......

[Kevin H]

If Football is now considered "ok" for SDA's to participate in ( or view ) because it's changed....

...Would the same also apply to pork given it's now better for you than Chicken or beef?

...Did Ellen White believe football was an "intrinsic evil" and did she ever over-ride or usurp her teaching on it?

1: Same principle, except that a proper application would be to get closer to vegetarianism since the meats are even more harmful than Pork was in the ancient world.

2. Mrs. White was not initially against it, she only changed her mind when she saw the harm that it was causing in how it was being played at the time and her concerns were for those problems rather than an intrinsic opposition to it. Granted we can have some of the same problems in the over competitiveness and how we relate to fans of other teams.

3: She donated a piece of land to PUC under the condition that they build a ball field on it, and she enjoyed going there to watch the students play.

[M. T. Cross]

Dude, you really need a life!! Can we help you out with maybe some suggestions for a new hobby...anyone got some ideas for Bob here? Be a good buddy and help him out!

Well......... now that you mention it...

Since he brought paganism into it, maybe he could spend some time actually reading and learning about paganism. Like from a pagans point of view, not what his Christian books say. Since that covers about a hundred different belief systems it should keep him busy for a while. At least until the football season is over.

[fccool]

Besides paganism, I think that Bob does make some good points that I agree with. I'm not agreeing with Bob on bases of what E.G.White said about it. The fact that someone said something means very little, but there are these points to consider.

1) Football is not very healthy for the body of the players. It should be quite obvious.

2) It's a modern version of Roman "Bread and circuses", so not quite healthy for your mind either.

3) It revolves around false societal priorities.

4) It promotes a false feeling of success or loss - "We won" type of success where all people do is watch, and then feel some sort of collective accomplishment.

5) There are comparatively very few redemptive values you can take away from it as a whole.

6) It leaves a sub-culture of worthless trivia behind, that has very little real contribution to society.

7) It actually does real damage to people who take on this "gladiator lifestyle", and end up with life-time injuries that no amount of money can fix

8) Last, but not least, this subculture makes all of the above glorious.

Sure, you can make positive analogies like team-work, leadership, struggle for victory and etc. Ironically, these analogies compare real life with something that's primitively staged, and hardly compares to the reality of life. It's like comparing a computer game to real life, and then drawing positive analogies from a computer game. As preposterous as it sounds, people do that quite often with sports.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

What I find annoying are those who cherry pick a prophet's testimony to slam others who don't believe the same way they do, ignoring the context of her writing.

What I find annoying is the sanctimonious attitude taken with regard to the use of Ellen G. White, whose usage of her works is outside the prophetic testimony of how her works should be used -

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Something about inspired writings from the prophets of God that just won't die.

Don't you just find that amazing? Or... annoying??

(I guess it depends on the person).

Don't you just "wish" doctrine and practice were all a matter of "personal preference" and nothing more? I know that the sunday keeping churches do.

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

Accusation 1:

What I find annoying are those who cherry pick a prophet's testimony to slam others who don't believe the same way they do, ignoring the context of her writing.

Accusation 2:

What I find annoying is the sanctimonious attitude taken with regard to the use of Ellen G. White, whose usage of her works is outside the prophetic testimony of how her works should be used -

1. You provide not one single quote to prove either of your points. Instructive.

2. There is no statement by Ellen White stating that we should not tell fellow Adventists about messages she has been given by God - for the church. And I think we both know that - hence you provide no quote for your point.

Instructive for the unbiased objective reader.

3. You claim that you found a "context" issue with my quote... without actually pointing to an actual problem. ...

Again.. "instructive".

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

1. I was not trying to prove points. I merely wrote of what annoys me of this subject,

Given your list of accusations above - it is instructive that you say you had no intention of proving them to be substantive.

Quote:

3. I made no claim about a context issue; I merely made a general statement regarding usage outside of context

Making the accusation "in general" and avoiding all effort to show that your accusation has substance in the case of this thread - is more than a little "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

As you point to some here who may be in agreement with your methods - I certainly am not trying to deny people their right to exercise free will and choose whatever path they wish.

in Christ,

Bob

Hmmmm....If you want to interpret my general comments as "accusations" - even after I stated they were general comments not to be taken as such - I can, of course, in no way stop you.

It does, however, give an indication of thought process which is very instructive to the rest of the participating members here....

[Tom Wetmore]

Or, perhaps rather than trying to pick a fight here, it might be better to get one's aggression out by vigorous physical exercise in a physical contact sport, or at least vicariously through watching such sports, watching violent movies or playing violent video games...

[M. T. Cross]

Or, perhaps rather than trying to pick a fight here, it might be better to get one's aggression out by vigorous physical exercise in a physical contact sport, or at least vicariously through watching such sports, watching violent movies or playing violent video games...

Listening to heavy metal is great for that too.

[Ted Oplinger]

Or, perhaps rather than trying to pick a fight here, it might be better to get one's aggression out by vigorous physical exercise in a physical contact sport, or at least vicariously through watching such sports, watching violent movies or playing violent video games...

Indeed, Tom, but I think that point needed to come from someone other than myself.

I would suggest possibly Taekwondo classes, maybe???

[Kevin H]

BobRyan: Although I think that we need to understand the historical context and to accept Mrs. White on how she said she wanted to be used, you still point out some important information that we need to keep in mind as we study the issue and not just be a typical fan or overdo it as so many do.