Football and Adventism

[CoAspen]

Yep, I sure can! For those that still think they all be floating around on clouds, playing harps....well...get ready for a big surprise!!!

[Guest]

When we have the "love of God in the soul" then we have the love that is totally dead of self and alive in the Spirit and our love is as His love and so the law of love is in us and is part of us. It is done as only the love of God can do. It is done as the thing we most desire to do!

I don't have this yet, but I want it.

[Gerr]

Can you imagine any competitive sport among the angels or among the inhabitants of the worlds afar?

Are you saying a game cannot be played purely for fun without keeping score?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Can you imagine any competitive sport among the angels or among the inhabitants of the worlds afar?

Are you saying a game cannot be played purely for fun without keeping score?

It could be that there is no need for that sort of thing. Entertainment could be on a much higher level, so that there is no need for competitive games.

Kind of like, the creatures that live in the ocean, don't need the dew.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Can you imagine any competitive sport among the angels or among the inhabitants of the worlds afar?

Are you saying a game cannot be played purely for fun without keeping score?

I was wondering that as well. At work we get two half hour breaks every day. At the second one a group of us play hockey. While we do keep score very loosely, its all in the spirit of just enjoying the game. The two of us that play goal are always encouraging the other goal tender when he makes a good save, we all cheer a good play or a nice goal etc. It is competition with out a competitive spirit so to spaek. Its just for the love of the game.

If there are inhabited worlds beyond our own ( which I am sure there are ) and they are indeed "without sin" I can surely imagine them playing games, having friendly competitions. It is only a sense of ego and self that beats a person up for not being the winner. If you can play a sport or game just for the love of it you won't get all worked up about winning or losing. But you will try your best to do as well as you can.

[JoeMo]

When one immerses himself in the object of winning as opposed to just having fun, IMO it ceases to be fun; and can, in fact get "mean". It dosen't just happen in sports - it happens in classes, board games, conversations, and internet forums. My daughter is in a pre-med program where she was the only undergraduate in a graduate-level fine anatomy class. Each student had their own cadaver to dissect. She was doing better than several of the graduate students in the class. One of them "sabotaged" her cadaver by cutting through all of the large leg muscles to revent her from getting a better grade. Needless to say, her dissection work is not as "fun" any more because, in the name of competing, someone ruined her "playing field".

MT speaks of playing hockey for fun. We play basketball after lunch sometimes for the same reason. Sometimes we don't even pick teams. We just shoot and rebound and dribble. If we see someone not getting their fair share of the action, we simply pass off the ball. No winning/losing involved - just a little exercise and blowing off energy for fun.

That ain't saying that I don't like competition. When we play cards or basketball or even watch football. I like it when I (or my favorite team) wins.

GO BRONCOS!!

(See what I mean?)

[M. T. Cross]

Its strange that football would be the topic of this discussion. I don't know of any other sport where at the end of the game you see the players mingling on the field, embracing their opponents, laughing and talking quite like football. The level of respect they have for each other is crazy.

[Robert]

It dosen't just happen in sports - it happens in classes (education)....

...Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). [The Dynamics of the Everlasting Gospel, By E.H. Jack Sequeira – The Sin Problem]

As to education, JoeMo, look at what Ellen White wrote:

"Those who have been actuated by selfishness and human ambition, who have been striving to be greatest, who have been self-important, who have felt above confessing mistakes and errors, will have no place in the kingdom of God.” [Review and Herald March 26, 1895]

[Robert]

Are you saying a game cannot be played purely for fun without keeping score?

I would say that's rare. Games were invented to have winners (and losers).

[Robert]

...Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). [The Dynamics of the Everlasting Gospel, By E.H. Jack Sequeira – The Sin Problem]

As to education, JoeMo, look at what Ellen White wrote:

"Those who have been actuated by selfishness and human ambition, who have been striving to be greatest, who have been self-important, who have felt above confessing mistakes and errors, will have no place in the kingdom of God.” [Review and Herald March 26, 1895]

Notice that in the quote above, involving education, Ellen White uses the phrase "striving to be greatest".

Going back to the bicycle race now, look for the same phrase:

"There were some who were striving for the mastery, each trying to excel the other in the swift running of their bicycles. There was a spirit of strife and contention among them as to which should be the greatest. The spirit was similar to that manifested in the baseball games on the college ground. Said my Guide: 'These things are an offense to God.' "[Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 51, 52.]

[Robert]

Now notice what Ellen White says about the remnant:

They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

In other words they are not free from their "bent-to-self". They are "striving to be greatest" in something in their lives, be it sports, education and yes even in theology.

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies (i.e., they aren't fully living for the flesh). They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” [Prophets and Kings, 588]

Folks, once you realize how we utterly fail to live Christ's life we will say, "wretched man that I am Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

And again, "He who says, 'I am holy, I am sinless,' is self-deceived....To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself (i.e., wretched man that I am) can not understand the meaning of redemption. [RH Sep 25, 1900]

Why can't you guys see this? Does it take sports or education to prove my point? How many years have I been here at CA trying to get this point across, but I constantly meet with opposition!

Robert

[M. T. Cross]

Robert, can you give a biblical -ie non EGW - reference to sports being a bad thing?

[BobRyan]

Here's "The rub".

Suppose we have a "men's ministry" event that asks that all the men in church get together and go to a horse race. Would we argue "well yes but isn't horse racing dangerous for the Jockey?". OR might we say "Hey - we don't think that is a very good men's ministry event"?

Now replace "horse racing" with "superbowl party" and you have the problem in a nutshell.

Unless that illusive reference to positive football is found.

[BobRyan]

...Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). [The Dynamics of the Everlasting Gospel, By E.H. Jack Sequeira – The Sin Problem]

While I am somewhat hesitant to endorse Jack's statements carte blanche - we notice that in the case of commerce, technology, sports etc there are both good contexts as well as bad.

Ellen White affirms sports where parents engage in that activity with their children for example.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Robert, can you give a biblical -ie non EGW - reference to sports being a bad thing?

Mark 10:35 ...whoever wants to become great (# 1) among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first (again, the greatest) must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) did not come to be served, but to serve...."

You see we are born spirituality bent towards ourselves. All we do (without Christ) is for our gain. Hence even the good things we do outwardly are for our gain. Hence we are born "bent-to-self". That's why David said, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

This "gain" can come through many channels. Sports is just one. There's education too. It's all about competition in trying to be the greatest.

[BobRyan]

http://www.adventistreview.org/2001-1525/story2.html

Thank you! thank you!

There we see a serious attempt to deal with the subject of sports - that avoids anything Ellen White has to say on the subject and while starting off on the subject of football - quickly retreats to "all sports in general".

A wise maneuver because as even the Ellen White material points out - there is indeed a positive favorable context for "sports in general" though as the article points out by way of examples - you can always find some bad element in almost any sport.

But the features that Ellen White speaks about relative to boxing and football and a few other sports where only negative statements are found - are not dealt with at all in the article.

Sometimes you can learn as much about a subject from what is not said as from what IS said.

Recall that the OP is about trying to find a positive context for the specific sport "football" from an inspired source.

I am pretty sure that the Bible does not mention the game -- but Ellen White does speak about it a number of times.

If someone has a positive reference for it - I would love to have the quote.

anyone?

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

the case of commerce, technology, sports etc there are both good contexts as well as bad...

You could argue that these things give us employment and therefore keep us alive, but it still doesn't mean they aren't tainted with "self" in the eyes of God's law. As John says, "all that is in the world" is based on self-seeking....

[BobRyan]

Years ago I remember reading a quote saying that "tennis" was a species of Satan. Same as football and all violent sports. I guess hockey is too as all competitive sports are.

sky

My guess is that we could all find a number of similarities between hockey and football.

As for tennis being invented by Satan - I don't recall such a quote.

But we do have a number of positive quotes from Ellen White about parents playing sports with their children.

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Robert, can you give a biblical -ie non EGW - reference to sports being a bad thing?

Mark 10:35 ...whoever wants to become great (# 1) among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first (again, the greatest) must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) did not come to be served, but to serve...."

You see we are born spirituality bent towards ourselves. All we do (without Christ) is for our gain. Hence even the good things we do outwardly are for our gain. Hence we are born "bent-to-self". That's why David said, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

This "gain" can come through many channels. Sports is just one. There's education too. It's all about competition in trying to be the greatest.

Robert, that says nothing about sports. Its about ego, and that can be applied to everything. Many athletes are very humble people, some are not. Some people that work at McDonalds are very humble people, some are not. If that verse is the best you can do you are not doing to well to prove your point.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

the case of commerce, technology, sports etc there are both good contexts as well as bad...

You could argue that these things give us employment and therefore keep us alive, but it still doesn't mean they aren't tainted with "self" in the eyes of God's law. As John says, "all that is in the world" is based on self-seeking....

I agree that you and I could come up with some positives for football "outdoor exercise" or "team spirit" or "sense of cooperation" or as you note "jobs". (but these generalities might apply to other sports just as well)

No contest there.

I am just asking if anyone knows of anything positive said about football in Ellen White's writings since she does in fact single out football and condemn it flat out - a number of places. Given that several have sought to post in favor of the game - yet without a single supporting quote from Ellen White - I am starting to guess that everyone else here has found the same lack of support for it in what Ellen White wrote - as I am now finding.

Given that case what about taking something that is only condemned and organizing men's ministry events around it?

thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Robert, that says nothing about sports. Its about ego, and that can be applied to everything.

Selfishness & ego or the love of self are all the same. Sports are based on winning - striving to be # 1. Anything that you can brag about or that brings you glory is sin. Just saying....

Giving tithe so you can get something back is sin....Obeying to get into heaven is sin. You are doing something in order to get something back. That's not agape, that's self-love. I could go on forever.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Its about ego, and that can be applied to everything.

Ya, but what ever is bad for my ego has got to be bad for yours too!! Right?

[Tom Wetmore]

Indeed - that is missing the point entirely.

The thread is about football. And grouping it in with horse racing and boxing is not my doing - it is simply the details of how Ellen White positions the subject.

Do you really think that the only reason we do not drag everyone off to the horse races as a "men's ministry event" is "lack of popularity"???

Surely you must be joking.

Back to the topic - I am simply pointing out that unless we can find some redeeming value - some differentiation between what she has grouped together then there is no more moral justification for selecting this one out of that group - than any other event in that list - as something that we might circle wagons around and build into a men's ministry event.

That is why I am not asking for "Popularity numbers" but rather some, good context and a bases for an affirmation of the event from an inspired source.

in Christ,

Bob

The point of such social events for men of the church is gathering together around an interest in common in a wholesome environment as compared to the typical alternative to the typical beer fueled occasion. It's not directly about ministry, although it may be arranged and coordinated by a church's men's ministry team. Men tend to socialize with each other by doing something and most logically doing something they are interested in. It is a way to get to know one another better. And in such a setting men are more likely to learn about each other's lives and be more comfortable exchanging views unrelated to the immediate activity. It is a way of building a social support group and a ready network to help one another when the need arises.

Opportunities can then arise for spiritual ministry. But it may not be then and there. More significantly men who have built friendship around a common interest are more likely to be open to getting together with the men they have become comfortable with to study and discuss spiritual things if invited to do so.

It is hard enough to get men interested in church. And the culture we live in offers few wholesome alternatives of interest to men to do male oriented stuff.

Let me give you two personal examples of how this works. One shows it starts early with males. The other shows how it lasts.

For years I taught in earliteen sabbath school. For a number of years I had the same group of boys. Not an easy age, especially for boys. At first it was a struggle to hold their attention or get them to participate. I really wasn't all that great a teacher, especially for a bunch of boys. But then I hit on a plan to get together with them as a group outside of Sabbath School, typically on Sabbath afternoon or on Sunday. We went for bicycle rides, hikes, to the zoo, doing what they wanted to do, etc. It broke the ice. We became friends and those boys became active participants in sabbath school and had some great discussions. To this day, I occasionally see some of them, now good men with families of their own. They remember that sabbath school class. How many of us here can look back fondly on an earliteen sabbath school class?

The other is current. I have been a lifelong avid bicyclist. For 25+ years another guy and I have been riding together, most often Sunday morning. We have other guys that join us from time to time as well. While we get a good workout we also talk about anything and everything. Things come up naturally, and often it is spiritual stuff and even personal issues. Quite often we continue talking long after we stop riding.

[BobRyan]

The point of such social events for men of the church is gathering together around an interest in common in a wholesome environment

[BobRyan]

I doubt that most men in church today are even aware of the following statements.

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Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

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But there is also another one for "football" -

Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality. They are developing the same characteristics as did the games of ancient Rome. The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life, are exerting upon the youth a power to demoralize that is appalling. {AH 500.3}

Which appears to go along with this --

I could refer to chapter after chapter of the Old Testament Scriptures that contain great encouragement. These Scriptures are a treasure house of precious pearls, and all need them. How much time is spent by intelligent human beings in horse racing, cricket matches, and ball playing! But will indulgence in these sports give men a desire to know truth and righteousness? Will it keep God in their thoughts? Will it lead them to inquire, How is it with my soul? {CT 456.1}

All the powers of Satan are set in operation to hold the attention to frivolous amusements, and he is gaining his object. He is interposing his devisings between God and the soul. He will manufacture diversions to keep men from thinking about God. The world, filled with sport and pleasure loving, is always thirsting for some new interest; but how little time and thought are given to the Creator of the heavens and the earth! {CT 456.2}

Among the youth the passion for football games and other kindred selfish gratifications have been misleading in their influence. Watchfulness and prayer and daily consecration to God have not been maintained. Converse, communion with God, is life to the soul. The light has been beclouded, and it was well pleasing to Satan to have the impression go forth that notwithstanding the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of our institutions of learning, and the office of publication and the church, they fell back to be overcome by temptation. Satan and evil workers cast reflection upon God, and His name has been dishonored.... {6MR 127.1}

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Are we seeing the results of this in our churches today?

I also doubt that the Adventist men attending church sponsored super bowl parties today are thinking "I am doing this because I don't care what Ellen White said about football". Most of them would (like me ) be surprised to find that Ellen White even mentioned football how much more surprised they must be then to find that she only condemned it!

in Christ,

Bob