Football and Adventism

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Its about ego, and that can be applied to everything.

Ya, but what ever is bad for my ego has got to be bad for yours too!! Right?

But of course!

[BobRyan]

http://www.adventistreview.org/2001-1525/story2.html

What I like about that article (a keeper) is that the writer is making a serious bible-based effort to present the best possible image of sports - and starts off including football.

But it is instructive that the author avoids everything that Ellen White had to say about football in that article. My guess is that including a representative sample of her statements on that subject would have completely eliminated football as a valid option for Seventh-day Adventists. I suppose the author was completely unaware of the material in that regard. At least "I hope" that is why they excluded it.

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

What I wonder Bob, is why are you not looking for a Biblical statement on it?

[BobRyan]

Because I think that if you do a Bible word search on "football", or "basketball" or "ping pong" or "tennis" you won't find it.

[M. T. Cross]

So what would you do if you wanted to find out if snowboarding is a sin or not?

Point is, the Bible is your place of truth or its not.

[CoAspen]

Get out of here! You're kidding!

So where's the beef??

Is it because it's Christmas and you're checking the list...twice...naughty or nice?

[Gerr]

Look for Bible principles. E.g. - is it harmful; can I afford it; is it a distraction from my relationship with God, etc.

[phkrause]

Look for Bible principles. E.g. - is it harmful; can I afford it; is it a distraction from my relationship with God, etc.

Great points Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Robert, can you give a biblical -ie non EGW - reference to sports being a bad thing?

Mark 10:35 ...whoever wants to become great (# 1) among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first (again, the greatest) must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) did not come to be served, but to serve...."

You see we are born spirituality bent towards ourselves. All we do (without Christ) is for our gain. Hence even the good things we do outwardly are for our gain. Hence we are born "bent-to-self". That's why David said, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

This "gain" can come through many channels. Sports is just one. There's education too. It's all about competition in trying to be the greatest.

Did not A. Bell become a servant to all by giving us the telephone? Tesla with his ac generators? Bill Gates with his OS for computers? When you benefit someone, you have become a servant of that person. I pursue education and it benefits not just me but others as well. That's a win-win proposition.

God apportions His gifts in a way that we may all serve and mutually benefit each other.

I believe that it is erroneous to say that ALL self-love is evil. We have gone round and round over this subject before. There is a healthy love for self and a destructive love for self. The command is to love others as, in the same manner, as we love ourselves. If the premise is wrong, the conclusion is bound to be wrong. If God has no love for Himself, why is He so jealous about His name?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

What I wonder Bob, is why are you not looking for a Biblical statement on it?

Quote:

So what would you do if you wanted to find out if snowboarding is a sin or not?

Point is, the Bible is your place of truth or its not.

MT,

You took the words right out of my mouth! This is a prime example of why I don't blindly swallow everything that proceedeth forth from the mouth of EGW. It's hard enough for some people to swallow what scripture says, much less adding to scripture; and giving it the same authority as scripture.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Years ago I remember reading a quote saying that "tennis" was a species of Satan. Same as football and all violent sports. I guess hockey is too as all competitive sports are.

sky

My guess is that we could all find a number of similarities between hockey and football.

As for tennis being invented by Satan - I don't recall such a quote.

But we do have a number of positive quotes from Ellen White about parents playing sports with their children.

in Christ,

Bob

I did check and you are right but she does not specify what "sports" they are.

As to tennis, could you check CT 350? I dont have it.

Thanks.

sky

[Gail]

I'm not sure which team I'm cheering for here... but- WOOT WOOT

[Gail]

It seems to me that guys need some sort of physical outlet as well as guy time with the mates. However form that takes is up to them. In the Bible it was war...

[Gibs]

Here is what EGW wrote of CT 348-351

Chap. 50 - The Danger in Amusements

Recent experiences in our colleges and sanitariums lead me to present again instruction that the Lord gave me for the teachers and students in our school at Cooranbong, Australia. {CT 348.1}

In April, 1900, a holiday was appointed at the Avondale school for Christian workers. The program for the day provided for a meeting in the chapel in the morning, at which I and others addressed the students, calling their attention to what God had wrought in the building up of this school, and to their privilege and opportunities as students. {CT 348.2}

After the meeting, the remainder of the day was spent by the students in various games and sports, some of which were frivolous, rude, and grotesque. {CT 348.3}

During the following night I seemed to be witnessing the performances of the afternoon. The scene was clearly laid out before me, and I was given a message for the manager and teachers of the school. {CT 348.4}

I was shown that in the amusements carried on at the school that afternoon the enemy gained a victory, and teachers were weighed in the balances and found wanting. I was greatly distressed and burdened to think that those standing in responsible positions should open the door and, as it were, invite the enemy in; for this they did in permitting the exhibitions that took place. As teachers, they should have stood firm against giving place to the enemy in any such line. By what they permitted they marred their record and grieved the Spirit of God. The students were encouraged in a course the effects of which were not easily effaced. There is no end to the path of vain amusements, and every step taken in it is a step in a path which Christ has not traveled. {CT 348.5}

This introduction of wrong plans was the very thing that should have been jealously guarded against. The Avondale school was established, not to be like the schools of the world, but, as God revealed, to be a pattern school. And since it was to be a pattern school, those in charge of it should have perfected everything after God's plan, discarding all that was not in harmony with His will. Had their eyes been anointed with the heavenly eyesalve, they would have realized that they could not permit the exhibition that took place that afternoon, without dishonoring God. {CT 349.1}

On Wednesday morning when I spoke to the students and to the others who had assembled, the words that the Lord gave me to speak, I did not know anything of what was to take place afterward; for no intimation of it had come to me. How could those at the head of the school harmonize with the words spoken the proceedings that followed, which were of a character to make of no effect the instruction that had just come to them from God? If their perceptions had not been greatly beclouded, they would have understood this instruction as rebuking all such proceedings. {CT 349.2}

I felt deeply the importance of the words that the Lord gave me at this time for teachers and students. This instruction presented before the students duties of the highest order; and to efface by the amusements afterward entered into, the good impressions made, was virtually saying, "We want not Thy way, O God; we want our own way; we want to follow our own wisdom." {CT 349.3}

In the night season I was a witness to the performance that was carried on on the school grounds. The students who engaged in the grotesque mimicry that was seen, acted out the mind of the enemy, some in a very unbecoming manner. A view of things was presented before me in which the students were playing games of tennis and cricket. Then I was given instruction regarding the character of these amusements. They were presented to me as a species of idolatry, like the idols of the nations. {CT 350.1}

There were more than visible spectators on the ground. Satan and his angels were there, making impressions on human minds. Angels of God, who minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation, were also present, not to approve, but to disapprove. They were ashamed that such an exhibition should be given by the professed children of God. The forces of the enemy gained a decided victory, and God was dishonored. He who gave His life to refine, ennoble, and sanctify human beings was grieved at the performance. {CT 350.2}

Hearing a voice, I turned to see who spoke to me. Then with dignity and solemnity One said, "Is this the celebration for the anniversary of the opening of the school? Is this the gratitude offering you present to God for the blessings He has given you? The world could render as acceptable an offering on this memorial occasion. The teachers are making the same mistake that has been made over and over again. They should learn wisdom from the experiences of the past. The careless, godless world can offer an abundance of such offerings as these, in a much more acceptable manner." {CT 350.3}

Turning to the teachers, He said, "You have made a mistake the effects of which it will be hard to efface. The Lord God of Israel is not glorified in the school. If at this time the Lord should permit your life to end, many would be lost, eternally separated from God and the righteous." {CT 351.1}

Even more is stated further on page 351.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

Gibs can you tell us what they should be doing?

[JoeMo]

Stan,

God bless you for your kind and sensitive manner of probing. I pray that I may become as kind and sensitive as you. My response (compared to yours) would probably have been considered sort of abusive or at least confrontational.

Let's see if you get a response that directly answers your question. God forgive me; but I hope the answer isn't studying scripture and SoP during every waking hour.

[Gordon1]

The judge rendered his decision today.

Football has cost the Mayor of Toronto his job.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/st...on-release.html

[Gibs]

Taking a walk is a good place to start, my feet have gone bad on me so I go out on 1 of the 3 bike trails here and one is up through deep woods and plenty of wild life and many enjoy the beautiful creatures of God there to see, many species of birds there eagles stay here the yr around and can be seen, I witnessed one take a crow in mid air one day.

When I am out like that my mind and heart are with Him continually.

Make a garden, I spent many hours in our garden at home growing up. We raised many wonderful things. We lived in a deep woods with just a few clear fields and woods around us for miles. We had a good pure spring fed stream and fish were easy to catch and were a lot of our diet.

I never did get into any sports of any kind. There was always plenty of work to do that really I enjoyed a lot. Accomplishment is better when it is for the good.

I am still an avid gardener, and am in it a lot. I do it back to Eden way, I think I posted that here on a forum, if I didn't I will. No tilling no more, no mud out there in the garden after a hard rain.

Any way here is the link to check it out, http://backtoedenfilm.com/

There is many things we can get into that we can continue to walk and talk with Him and that is our desire, to constanly be with Him.

Competition becomes so fierce in sports that we are drawn away from Him and that is not good. Let us do things and work at our jobs and keep Him in constant connection, He in us and we in Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

Amen Gibs!

[BobRyan]

Gibs can you tell us what they should be doing?

[BobRyan]

So what would you do if you wanted to find out if snowboarding is a sin or not?

Point is, the Bible is your place of truth or its not.

the Bible is my test of all doctrine.

As we both know - the Bible says in 1Thess 5:19-20 - that I am supposed to notice when God speaks to me through one of His prophets.

God says that if He warns us through one of his prophets and we ignore the warning - then the prophet is free from the stain of our blood on his/her hands. Our blood is on our own head according to God's Word - if we act in such a manner.

God fully supports free will.

I am just following the Bible in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Did not A. Bell become a servant to all by giving us the telephone? Tesla with his ac generators? Bill Gates with his OS for computers? When you benefit someone, you have become a servant of that person. I pursue education and it benefits not just me but others as well. That's a win-win proposition.

All these folks did it for their gain.....That's not agape.

1 Cor 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking.

Luke 16:15 You cannot serve both God and Money. 14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

Now go to Matt 23:5 "Everything they do, they do to be noticed by others."

Outwardly they kept the law, i.e., they justified themselves, but God knew their hearts. Everything they did was for $$$ (gain). What did Christ say? "That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law." [Ellen White]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Did not A. Bell become a servant to all by giving us the telephone? Tesla with his ac generators? Bill Gates with his OS for computers? When you benefit someone, you have become a servant of that person. I pursue education and it benefits not just me but others as well. That's a win-win proposition.

All these folks did it for their gain.....That's not agape.

ESV | ‎Dt 25:4 “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain.

[BobRyan]

If you notice the comments in those quotes from Adventist Home and elsewhere - the problem linked to boxing and football goes far beyond wanting to be noticed by others.

An artist who paints well might have the same "want to be noticed" issue. But still have almost none of the issues associated in those quotes with football.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Bob,

You claim:

Quote:

the Bible is my test of all doctrine.

Then why won't you quote from the universally accepted prophets of scripture rather than one proclaimed by a single denomination - one who denied that she was a prophet during her entire life - one who was generally disliked by her church until her family came along after her death and proclaimed her "prophet"? Should non SDA's on this forum esteem the words of EGW any more than the non-Mormons on here should esteem the words of Joseph Smith or Bringham Young? Below is just a sample of what EGW says about her "office of prophet":

Quote:

"In regard to infallibility, I NEVER claimed it; God ALONE is Infallible." Selected Messages, Book One, pp 415 and 37

"Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God." Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 34

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892

"We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but One who is infallible --- He is the way, the truth, and the life.

"If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time we knew it." Testimonies to Ministers, pp 105 and 107

"The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible."We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed.

"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning." Selected Messages, Book One, pp. 416 and 37.

"Our position and faith is in the Bible. . . . And never do we want any soul to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible." Evangelism, p. 256

“We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they are erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor.“We must study the truth for ourselves. No man should be relied upon to think for us. No matter who he is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a criterion for us. Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 106 and 110

“Whatever may be man’s intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of Scripture for greater light. As a people we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study, clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought to others.

“Some of our leading brethren have frequently taken their position on the wrong side: and if God would send a message and wait for these older brethren to open the way for its advancement, it would never reach the people.

“The rebuke of the Lord will rest upon those who would bar the way, that clearer light shall not come to the people. . . . Let no one run the risk of interposing between the people and the message of heaven.” Gospel Workers, pp 300, 303, and 304.

A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, “We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God. But we are not safe when we take the position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God’s word for truth.” Review and Herald, June 18, 1888.

We need to begin all over again. . . . Errors may be hoary with age; but age does not make error truth, nor truth error. Altogether too long have the old customs and habits been followed. The Lord would now have every idea that is false put away from teachers and students. We are not at liberty to teach that which shall meet the world’s standard or the standard of the church, simply because it is the custom to do so.” Testimonies for the Church, vol 6, p. 142.

So, while I respect the inspired words of Ellen White, I do not claim her word to be in infallble; or having the same authority as scripture. Hence, IMO, all this talk about the evil of football and sports in general is poppy-[censored]. Participation in competitive sports is a great alternative to drugs and gang membership for our young people. I'd rather see them involved in some sort of enjoyable outdoor exercise than playing murderous fantasy games in front tof a TV set.