Should SDA's be asking: What is the mark of the beast???

[wicklunds]

Yes and no...

For those who think there is uncertainty as to the answer of this question, I submit that the answer to the question, Should SDA's be asking, What is the mark of the beast??? would be yes.

and here is your answer...

What Is the Mark of the Beast?--John was called to behold a people distinct from those who worship the beast and his image by keeping the first day of the week. The observance of this day is the mark of the beast (Letter 31, 1898).

The Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. It points to God as the Creator, and is the sign of His rightful authority over the beings He has made. Those who obey this law will bear the seal of God, for He has set apart this day as a sign of loyalty between Himself and His people. To Moses on Mount Sinai He said, "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily My Sabbaths ye shall keep; for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you." {ST, March 22, 1910 par. 4}

The mark of the beast is the opposite of this,--the observance of the first day of the week as the sabbath enforced by human law. This mark distinguishes those who acknowledge the supremacy of the papal authority from those who acknowledge the authority of God. {ST, March 22, 1910 par. 5}

As the sign of the authority of the Catholic Church, papist writers cite "the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, . . . because by keeping Sunday strictly they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin." {ST, March 22, 1910 par. 6}

The Roman church thus declares that by observing the first day of the week as the sabbath, Protestants are recognizing her power to legislate in divine things. And it is true that those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe a false sabbath in the place of the true, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. {ST, March 22, 1910 par. 7}

The reason for my posting this is because lately, folks seem to be forgetting that we are near a critical point where choice in the matter is diminishing.

[Robert]

Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury....

Of course Revelation is highly symbolic. That being said is the mark literal or symbolic?

It is true that integrated circuits [iCs] are small enough to insert in people....Is this the mark?

Rev 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Well in chapter 14 it looks like people have to "receive" the mark...but in chapter 13 it looks like "everyone" is forced to take the mark.

[Just thinking out loud]

Now if Sunday is the mark of the beast and “everyone” is forced to accept it, then wouldn’t everyone be lost?

Perhaps it will be some sort of integrated circuitry implanted in all humans. If you refuse to worship the 2nd and 1st beast then it looks like you will be “cut off”…. no one can buy or sell.

[Dr. Shane]

There are two groups of people described in Revelation. One worships the beast and the other keeps the Commandments and the faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:11, 12). That tells us two things. The mark of the beast has something to do with worship and something to do with the Commandments.

[Robert]

As I've stated before...there's nothing in the 4th commandment that talks of worship:

Deut 5:6

• #1 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 7 “You shall have no other gods before me.

  #2 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [:"red"]You shall not bow down to them or worship them[/]; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers* to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

  #3 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

  #4 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

The 2nd commandment prohibits false worship....Nothing in the 4th commandment on that subject.

Now Paul:

• For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. [:"red"]God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,[/] dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood [Adam] all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

Did you get that? "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth" is tied to idolatry not Sabbath keeping.

So the 1st angel is preaching a return to the God who made heaven and earth....All false gospels must be given up.

* Ez 18:20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity….

[wicklunds]

And just how are we to return to loyalty to God?

[Robert]

Quote:

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wicklunds said:

And just how are we to return to loyalty to God?

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• After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Repentance = belief: I am a sinner and I need Jesus Christ and His righteousness to deliver me from "under law"!

In the NT idolatry is rejecting the gospel....There's only one way to father...through Jesus Christ!

• Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

  11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Nuff said,

Rob

[wicklunds]

No, idolatry is resting and worshiping on a day of your own, or someone other than God's choosing. You should take a break from Paul and realize that for a minute.

[Robert]

Quote:

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wicklunds said:

No, idolatry is resting and worshiping on a day of your own, or someone other than God's choosing. You should take a break from Paul and realize that for a minute.

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Sorry, God's own law does not state what you have implied. That means you have broken the 9th commandment ....Here it is:

Deut 5:20 “You shall not give false testimony...."

[wicklunds]

I think we are all well aware of who is giving the false testimony here...and it isnt myself or Shane or Ellen White.

The Roman church has not relinquished her claim to supremacy; and when the world and the Protestant churches accept a sabbath of her creating, while they reject the Bible Sabbath, they virtually admit this assumption. They may claim the authority of tradition and of the Fathers for the change; but in so doing they ignore the very principle which separates them from Rome,--that "the Bible, and the Bible only, is the religion of Protestants." The papist can see that they are deceiving themselves, willingly closing their eyes to the facts in the case. As the movement for Sunday enforcement gains favor, he rejoices, feeling assured that it will eventually bring the whole Protestant world under the banner of Rome. {ST, March 22, 1910 par. 8}

[wicklunds]

If you are so sure that the Sabbath is not the seal of God's authority, and the false Sabbath worship, the mark of the beast, you give the interpretation of them. You might be right with regard to Paul's writings, but not Revelation's.

[cardw]

You know Friday night and Saturday mass is a regular part of many Catholic church programs. This is to allow as many as possible to come and worship. Much of the information you are quoting is out of date and does not reflect what the Catholic church is doing today.

I don't see much difference in the dogmatic approaches currently in Adventism and those of the Catholic church. Its only to topics in which they are dogmatic that differ. I think you are making an idol out of the Sabbath.

Richard

[Robert]

Quote:

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wicklunds said:

I think we are all well aware of who is giving the false testimony here...and it isnt myself....

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Then prove what you saying from the law! I am waiting....

[Dr. Shane]

Pope John Paul II had a profound impact on the Catholic church but it would be a mistake for us to believe that he changed it from what it was before.

[wicklunds]

Quote:

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ROBERT said:

Then prove what you saying from the law! I am waiting....

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Which part? And I asked you to tell me what the mark of the beast is since you have attempted to refute the traditional to no avail. You answer my question then I will answer yours.

[wicklunds]

Quote:

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cardw said:

You know Friday night and Saturday mass is a regular part of many Catholic church programs. This is to allow as many as possible to come and worship. Much of the information you are quoting is out of date and does not reflect what the Catholic church is doing today.

I don't see much difference in the dogmatic approaches currently in Adventism and those of the Catholic church. Its only to topics in which they are dogmatic that differ. I think you are making an idol out of the Sabbath.

Richard

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There must be a force exerted which is equal to or greater than the one opposite you in order for there to be a change in direction. Because some are watering down the SDA message doesnt make it o.k. The information I quoted has been true for over a thousand years and by this point in history should be a household truth. But satan is angry, and darkness has covered the earth, and gross darkness the people.

Dennis

[Robert]

see #175957

[wicklunds]

Quote:

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ROBERT said:

Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image

and receives his mark

on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury....

Of course Revelation is highly symbolic. That being said is the mark literal or symbolic?

It is true that integrated circuits [iCs] are small enough to insert in people....Is this the mark?

Rev 13:16 He also forced

everyone

, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Well in chapter 14 it looks like people have to "receive" the mark...but in chapter 13 it looks like "everyone" is forced to take the mark.

[Just thinking out loud]

Now if Sunday is the mark of the beast and “everyone” is forced to accept it, then wouldn’t everyone be lost?

Perhaps it will be some sort of integrated circuitry implanted in all humans. If you refuse to worship the 2nd and 1st beast then it looks like you will be “cut off”…. no one can buy or sell.

---

You can't be serious Robert! You have been reading too many Hal Lindsey books.

It looks as though you have not studied this very much. You say that Rev. says everyone receives the mark, but...

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image,and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Just because it says in Rev. 13:16 that the beast power forces everyone to receive the mark, doesnt mean there arent those who refuse to have it. Some of them worship the beast willingly... Some receive the mark of the beast because their food and drink are to them more important than eternal life (Rev 13:17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.). Some do so because they have not read the word of God even when it was at arms length their whole life, and have not realized for themselves what the mark is, or have been deceived as to what it is (computer chip).

[wicklunds]

Your post helped me to dig this up...

The Blind Leading the Blind

I have seen how the blind guides were laboring to make souls as blind as themselves, little realizing what is coming upon them. They are exalting themselves against the truth, and as it triumphs, many who have looked on these teachers as men of God and have looked to them for light, are troubled. They inquire of these leaders relative to the Sabbath, and they, with the object of getting rid of the fourth commandment, will answer them thereto. I saw that real honesty was not regarded in taking the many positions that were taken against the Sabbath. The main object is to get around the Sabbath of the Lord and observe another day than that sanctified and hallowed by Jehovah. If they are driven from one position, they take an opposite one, even a position that they had but just before condemned as unsound. {EW 68.1}

God's people are coming into the unity of the faith. Those who observe the Sabbath of the Bible are united in their views of Bible truth. But those who oppose the Sabbath among the Advent people are disunited and strangely divided. One comes forward in opposition to the Sabbath and declares it to be thus and so, and at the conclusion calls it settled. But as his effort does not put the question to rest, and as the Sabbath cause progresses and the children of the Lord still embrace it, another comes forward to overthrow it. But in presenting his views to get around the Sabbath, he entirely tears down the arguments of him who made the first effort against the truth, and presents a theory as opposite to his as to ours. So with the third and the fourth; but none of them will have it as it stands

69

in the Word of God: "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." {EW 68.2}

Such, I saw, have the carnal mind, therefore are not subject to the holy law of God. They are not agreed among themselves, yet labor hard with their inferences to wrest the Scriptures to make a breach in God's law, to change, abolish, or do anything with the fourth commandment rather than to observe it. They wish to silence the flock upon this question; therefore they get up something with the hope that it will quiet them and that many of their followers will search their Bibles so little that their leaders can easily make error appear like truth, and they receive it as such, not looking higher than their leaders.

{EW 69.1}

Dennis

[wicklunds]

Is the mark literal??

Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, . . . that we may know what is coming.

{FLB 287.7}

[wicklunds]

What about the faith of the saints? What will they be doing?

A Sabbathkeeping Church

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17. {FLB 291.1}

In the twelfth chapter of Revelation is represented the great conflict between the obedient and the disobedient. {FLB 291.2}

The sign of obedience is the observance of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. {FLB 291.3}

The Sabbath is a test to this generation. In obeying the fourth commandment in spirit and truth, men will obey all the precepts of the Decalogue. To fulfill this commandment one must love God supremely, and exercise love toward all the creatures that He has made. {FLB 291.4}

The time is coming when God's people will feel the hand of persecution because they keep holy the seventh day. . . . The man of sin, who thought to change times and laws, and who has always oppressed the people of God, will cause laws to be made enforcing the observance of the first day of the week. But God's people are to stand firm for Him. {FLB 291.5}

Let no one yield to temptation and become less fervent in his attachment to God's law because of the contempt placed upon it; for that is the very thing that should make us pray with all our heart, and soul, and voice, "It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law." Ps. 119:126. Therefore, because of the universal contempt, I will not turn traitor when God will be most glorified and most honored by my loyalty. . . . {FLB 291.6}

Shall Seventh-day Adventists relax their devotedness when all their capabilities and powers should be placed on the Lord's side; when an unflinching testimony, noble and uplifting, should come from their lips? "Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold." Ps. 119:127. When the law of God is most derided and brought into the most contempt, then it is time for every true follower of Christ . . . to stand unflinchingly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

292

{FLB 291.7}

[Robert]

I need to see it from the Bible. Ellen White has many good things to say...she also contains error*. I use the good stuff! So I'll need to see what the mark of the beast is from the Bible.

Example *

• -BC- AY

  -TI- An Appeal to the Youth

  -CN- 1

  -CT- His Mother's Letters

  -PR- 03

  -PG- 61

  “The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and he has promised that they shall be in his kingdom. [:"red"]But wicked children God does not love.[:"black"]He will not take them to the beautiful City, for he only admits the good, obedient, and patient children there."

  PC- Becho

  PT- Bible Echo and Signs of the Times

  DT- 02-01-92

  AT- Ye are Complete in Him

  PR- 09

  “[:"red"]Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong[/]; teach them that he loves them so that it grieves his Spirit to see them in transgression, because he knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them.

Then do not forget:

• -PC- RH

  -PT- Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

  -DT- 12-15-85

  -AT- A Missionary Appeal

  -PR- 16

  "The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy word will be in harmony....Man is fallible, but God's word is infallible."

  -BC- CW

  -TI- Counsels to Writers and Editors

  -CN- 4

  -CT- Attitude to New Light

  -PR- 01

  "We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed."

  -BC- 1SM

  -TI- Selected Messages Book 1

  -CN- 2

  -CT- Ellen G. White and Her Writings

  -PR- 04

  -PG- 37

  "In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word [the Bible] is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning."

Ellen White might be right on the mark of the beast...I don't know, but she expects us to get this from the Bible.

I do believe something is going to happen pertaining to Sunday. The reason I do is not so much Biblical, but because Sunday laws are unconstitutional. Yes I know the Supreme Court says they are not and that Sunday is really about "family day", but we know that's a bunch of baloney. So something is amiss here. We need to prove it from the Bible.

So it looks like you might have a point when you illustrated that not all receive this mark.... Still, I don't know what this mark is....

Rob

[wicklunds]

Actually she is right in both of those quotes about children, it is just that you have taken her writings out of context.

[wicklunds]

And how could I forget that the word is the standard which many wrest to their own destruction?

[Robert]

Quote:

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wicklunds said:

Actually she is right in both of those quotes about children, it is just that you have taken her writings out of context.

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No...not at all. In fact let's continue the context:

"When you [Willie - Ellen's son] feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, [:"red"] and will not love you if you do wrong.[:"black"] When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you. Although he is in heaven, and you cannot see him, yet he loves you when you do right, and writes it down his book; and when you do wrong, he puts a black mark against you. Now, dear Willie, try to do right always, and then no black mark will be set down against you; and when Jesus comes he will call for that good boy Willie White...."

Okay...there's the context. What did she say? "...remember the Lord sees you [Willie], and will not love you if you do wrong....

Now compare that to her other statement:

“[:"red"]Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong ...."

Early on Ellen taught Willie that God did not love him when He is was "bad". Years later the prophetess learned better and she said, "Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong."

Now I insist that you use the infallible Bible instead of a fallible messenger…..

Thanks ahead of time,

Robert

PS: Concerning the Mark of The Beast...I am not sure what it is....Let's reason from the Bible.

[Robert]

BC- SpM

TI- Spalding and Magan Collection

PR- 01

PG- 174

"...don’t you quote Sister White. I don’t want you ever to quote Sister White until you get your vantage ground where you know where you are. Quote the Bible. Talk the Bible. It is full of meat, full of fatness. Carry it right out in your life, and you will know more Bible than you know now....