hch Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Deb, The church is no longer united on basic scriptural truths, ie the Sabbath question. Some members buy their lunch Sabbath after church. And the hermeneutics that should be used to guide the SDA understanding of honest and true interpretation of scriptures are not always followed consistently. Case in point: Revelation 13 links to Daniel 7. They share symbolism: sea, lion, bear, leopard, beast with no description (Daniel 10 horns - Revelation 2 horns) and earth. All these elements are in both places, but earth in Daniel 7:17 is (literal) thus it is not treated the same as it is in Revelation 13 where it is symbolic. And unfortunately if our thoughts or ideas are out of harmony or agreement with the church, there is no way to get them examined. History shows this so well in the Ford debacle. (I am not for or against him, I never took a dog in that fight.) But when his ideas were new, the willingness to look into them was just not there until they started to catch on. Then we spent how many Millions to silence him? I live in the shadow of a premiere SDA institution of higher learning. I briefly spoke to an SDA authority, Dr. G about my study in Daniel and Revelation. His latest book did not see it that way - end of discussion. Bro. K spoke to the Theological group, he was fascinated with my questions and took my name, etc. Have not heard back (2 years). Gave Dr. R and Bro. X a copy of my studies. No further contact. However Dr. B (a well known SDA scholar and author) said that he read the material and he asked some great questions. Unfortunately, his questions revealed that he only skimmed the material since they were all answered within the text and he was surprised by the answers that I shared verbally. I love my church dearly. But I have come to the conclusion that when it makes it into the KINGDOM, not all of the would-be saints are going to be in that number. So much for hermeneutics. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Well Gail - they are my thoughts but you stole them. I claim that they were in my head before yours. lol Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Gail and Woody, Without quoting you, Thank you for your kind words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Without quoting you JoeMo - it is my original thought that I thank you for your thanks. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 hch, You say that you have come to the conclusion that when your church (I assume you mean SDA's) makes it into the KINGDOM, not all of the would-be saints are going to be in that number. Who are you to judge? God can save anyone He wants to save - He's the judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I got to the part about quoting each other after I did it when my hand was on the send button. Really I will do better on that front and not impose on the editors. I was impressed with how my first few posts were improved by editors. But Woody, I don't see how Christ conformed to the world: He transformed it. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 hch - you asked if it is the purpose of the church is to help us in the process of conforming to the image of Christ in us or is the church to comfort us while we have one foot in Heaven and the other firmly planted in the world? Again - my answer is both. He most certainly comforts all of us sinners - for while we were yet sinners - He saved us. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 JoeMo I like to think that I learn as I grow. Up front, I confess: I am a big fan of the Spirit of Prophecy. So I know that Christ walks in the midst of the 7 Churches and that He has and will always have 7 churches. The remnant SDA Church is Laodicea, but it is not the only church. If Jesus removes a candlestick from His presence, He will replace it with another. But He will not be removing Laodicea. Introducing people to Jesus and the gospel is part of the endtime work that needs to be done. Proclaiming the nearness of Christ's coming and that we are living in the Day of Atonement in preparation of His Advent is another very important part of the gospel message. We are commissioned to come into the fullness of Truth (Present Truth) in preparation for Jesus to Come. I know many SDA's that white wash the graves of Jones and Waggoner with praise and platitudes, then these "saints" treat new light with the same respect that the SDA leaders showed it in 1888. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I' sorry Gail, that's 2 words if you count A Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Word is a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation ... or it is a short talk or conversation. It does not have to be singular. It can be plural in form even though it is not spelled out as 'words'. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Woody, Would he? It has been such a long time since I posted in orange, I didn't remember ALL the rules. Stan did tell me a long long time ago me not to quote but I only remembered it as the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy not anything about each other. But you and JoeMo have helped me to overcome my ignorance. I repent. I have changed my ways! Do you know when Stan's birthday is, maybe I can bake him a cake? Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Good Idea of baking him a cake. But I would do it sooner rather than later. You are forgiven friend. You are forgiven. In my eyes you are spotless. But my opinion does not matter unfortunately. I would appeal to those in charge and see what can be done to butter them up. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 JoeMo, I love my kids. When I came home during a rain storm, my son had blocked a culvert with some plywood that was draining water from our yard. The yard was flooded and he was having a grand time in the "pond." I told him not to let the water get much higher or it would go into the house. He started to remove the dam to let the water drain. I stopped him. He was standing in the water in front of the dam pulling on the plywood. With the amount of water that he had captured and the 2' culvert, I feared that removing the plug from the drain would cause him to be sucked into it. After discussing the danger with him, he took a safe position, popped the plug and the water was gone in an instant without taking any kids with it. If I had not been there or if he had been hasty to pull the plug, things might have been different or even deadly, If people in my SDA Church or any church don't choose to follow God's instruction in a timely manner as my son chose to follow mine, I cannot imagine a happy outcome for the negligent. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 What if I believe that the church and God are pulling me in opposite directions? I don't hear God audibly in English (many would call that scitzopheria), but I do believe He speaks to me through circumstances, impressions, ideas, and dreams. And quite honstly, sometimes he impresses me to do or say things that a "good" Adventist would frown upon (Questioning the lifelong infallibility of Mrs. White, for example). Does that make me a "Badventist"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 We are not saved by following God's instructions and we are not lost by being negligent. I am negligent but I am saved. I don't follow all of God's instructions ... yet I am saved. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 JoeMo Follow God. A Sadventist will be devoid of the leading of the Holy Spirit. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Woody, That foolishness is rather commonplace in the belief system of many if not most SDA's. But when the love of God is in our heart, we do obey Him. If we don't obey God, Jesus cannot possibly be motivating our actions. If our motivation is not Christ centered, it neglects the basic principles of salvation. Salvation without Christ is an impossible myth. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Well Praise God hch - I am not alone in my beliefs anyways. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 ...and agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted January 11, 2013 Administrators Share Posted January 11, 2013 mrs white was human, and frail and weak and faulty and a sinner as we all are. we do not follow e.g.white, neither do we follow apostle paul, or peter, and barnabas... or john for that matter. all of these people were erring vulnerable sinners, serving the Lord. The bible can be hard to understand and conflicting, but we do not depend on our ability to interpret the bible, or our ability to perfectly obey. God speaks to us and guides us through the Spirit speaking through the scripture. get grounded in the word, in hope and love. Love the truth and it will keep you. continue to be sincere and honest, and let the word cut away everything that the Spirit reveals is not right. we have the mercy of God and we follow a savior who is touched with the feelings of our infirmities. We hope in one who has all power and authority in heaven and earth, who is able to teach us and lead us, and empower us to follow where he leads. if you are looking to your church to lead you then you will be in trouble, you are not to follow erring people. look higher. we are living in a time like never before.... it is true. The attacks on faith and growing your faith are real and not getting lighter. debjm aka 1 Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 Amen Woody, We've had this discussion, so I'll keep it brief. We are saved slely by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We are reconciled to the Father thanks to what Jesus has done for us. He died for all sin - past, present, and future. Nothing good that we do can make Him love us any more than He already does; and nothing bad we do can make Him love us any less. I am redeemed! Thank you for the confirmation hch. By His grace, God is whom I intend to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 deb, I was blessed by reading your post. Being a non-alien to the earth makes me human too. And that is good in spite of my frailties of which Mrs. White has no monopoly. Why is being human good, because the plan of salvation as I see it was designed to save humans not angelic aliens (devils). Jesus became human not angelic to save people. But I suspect that human's really do follow Peter and Paul and whoever they feel has the best take on the gospel to make the Bible more understandable rather than the Holy Spirit. When we forget the Holy Spirit's inspirational role in the Bible, we loose sight of His role to make the Bible relevant to us. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 debjm, Thank you for your always-uplifting posts. I perceive that you are a rather conservative Christian (I'm not); but you say things in a way that really blesses me. God is with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 JoeMo and Woody, I know where you are coming from. And I must agree to disagree. Sometimes things that folks believe to be settled are not really settled except in their minds. We obey those who we love. And if we don't obey God, we do not love Him enough to receive the love that He offers us in Jesus Christ. We are not reconciled to God through Jesus if we don't reach the point that we allow Jesus to live in us and manifest His love and obedience through us. Good sounding words detached from obedience through Jesus are but music to sinners' ears that will drowned out the words Great job My beloved. To stop with the point that you both agree on is to stop too soon. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 I never said that disobedience was OK. In fact, I think grace includes the power to overcome sin and obey God's desires. I am saying that sometimes we don't obey; and sometimes we make mistakes. Sometimes they are intentional. I'm just claiming the promise in 1 John that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness; and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Disobedience is NOT OK; but it is forgiven because of the grace (unmerited favor) freely offered by Our Lord Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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