What To Do When You Disagree With The Church?

[debbym]

Thank-you again for your positive response JoeMo,

but i don't think i am conservative or liberal in my Christianity,

i do suspect i am radical. and i imagine you may well have some radical Christian traits too, so i think there is some resonation.

I think we need Christ's radical acceptance of one another, whether we disagree, or think differently then our church or not. And Jesus was very radical, and not in step with his religious leaders at all. The Spirit is leading us all to unity, and we all have lots of rough bumpy things in us to be worked on for that to come about. It is OK to be somewhere in that process.

I believe the truths of scripture were written to grow faith and love, not written for those who will never believe. I think this may be a radical belief, and i have no idea if my church believes this or not.

[hch]

If we would treat the church as kindly as we have been treating each other on this thread, some of the disagreeable situations would get resolved.

[OzarkWoman]

Me too JoeMo

[debbym]

i have a better definition for grace, Grace, graciousness is the very character of God. God is kind, and his kindness reaches me through his tears of love and mercy towards me.

because of his love, because of his heart of kindness and graciousness, and mercy toward us, we can have assurance, and our need for forgiveness met. when his acceptance of me as a sinner is seen as a freely dispensed unmerited favor standing alone i am not changed by receiving it.

it seems in my mind, when i see grace as this unmerited favor separated from a relationship to God's heart of long suffering love, i lose the relationship, and when i lose that i love the motivation and the dynamic of family relationship with God..

when i see my church extending this patience and love, in every teaching... then it is in context. then it touches me and the blessing lands.

when i think differently, it is a good good thing to talk to my church, to talk to my teaches, those the Lord has place in my life to help me learn of heaven and the word of God, and to learn of his Character.

every teaching has it's place in revealing the Character of God. If i disagree then likely i am in a position to learn something about God's character, the nature of sin, and the nature of my relationship to him.

This is not to say the knowledge and understanding of the Church is complete, no it is still growing, there is always more light.

to know God is to have power to over come and obey, to not know Him leaves openings for our failures, and my failures are many, i need to know God more and more all the time.

debjm

[Gail]

How true... I wonder if this realisation in itself would help heal over some damaged feelings.

[Woody]

hch you said that when the love of God is in our heart, we do obey Him.

Yes. I suppose I might possibly agree to some degree. But then I am like a yo-yo. The love of God then is in my heart and then out and then in and then out and then in and then out.

(You get the picture)

Praise God - my saved status is not like this yo-yo. I don't serve a yo-yo God. I don't have yo-yo salvation. My salvation is secured even though my works are a yo-yo.

[debbym]

healing happens in the presence of God.

there went out virtue from Jesus,

healing virtue that healed people,

just being with Jesus.

debjm

[hch]

Woody, I was a professional "Roller Coaster" Christian for years. I know the yo-yo feeling.

When I started studying the book of Daniel rather than what we write about Daniel, slowly, the LORD turned me about.

At first it was sudden. I told God that I was a mess and if He did not do something NOW (actually I gave Him 14 days) I was out of here. And I told Him where I was going and what I was going to do with my life.

He took care of the problem immediately. And then He asked me why I had waited so long to ask for help.

Then slowly God changed me. Then He took everything away.

I turned my meager 401K into a year's salary overnight. And quit my job to study Daniel. Lost it $$$ overnight.

My wife left with the kids.

Went back to work. Wife came back. Got fired. She left again.

Then the bank took the house.

But by then I knew God's voice and our relationship was solid. I praised Him for taking the house, and I refused to move until He told me it was ok.

That was easy. I did not have any money to put gas in the car or any place to put our stuff or any way to get it there if I did have a place to put it.

The new owner gave me 4-weeks to move. God gave me 6. And when I moved, the Lord provided more money to meet my needs than if I had sold the house outright and not lost it.

That was a God thing.

So I continued to study and write. On April 27, 2011 at 12 noon, I published my book Echoes of Doomsday, (Earthquake, Tsunami, Meltdown, Wars and The Sunday Law Solution)

At 6PM on that very day - a Mega Tornado ripped apart the community that I had so recently left. It decapitated the house that the bank stole (that had been remodeled, but sat vacant).

With my eyes, I beheld it but it did not come near me.

God found me; loved me; lead me away from danger; and has provided for me ever since.

I could be in a high paying job and not living from hand to mouth, but God is teaching me how to live a life of faith that is totally dependent on Him.

One of my professional licenses has expired and the other is due to expire next week. This morning the Lord impressed me to keep it active, not to have it to fall back on in case of my need, but that it might be a blessing to others.

Since I am totally dependent of God to meet the expenses to renew it, His will be done. The bills are current, but I don't have money to put gas in the tank today. That is His department, He will take care of it as He sees best.

My salvation is contingent upon my continued trust in my loving Savior. If I refuse to follow His leading, our ways will part.

So how does God know that I love Him? He sees me following where He is leading.

[CoAspen]

Sounds like you believe you're off the 'roller coaster'....that would make you 'one up' on Paul! You know, I do what I don't want to do....I die daily to self...thankfully Christ died for my weakness........

Woody seems to be experiencing the fight of Paul and the rest of us!

[phkrause]

Great testimony hch, I have had a similar experience. I do agree though with CoAspen, our roller coaster ride never ends totally, because Satan is still out there. The closer we get to God the harder Satan works, so up and down we go. The difference is, we know that God will always help us in each situation that Satan gets us into. Great post hch.

[Woody]

excellent comments pk and CoA

[Gail]

God IS great in all situations. I am happy for you guys all in here, because you have encouraged your brothers.

Disagreeing with the church... I am wondering if it is as simple as that. When I do that is it the church, someone in the church, a Biblical policy or the translation of one? Is it pride in myself?

When I run into trouble somewhere I find that some time with God or in Bible study or just some time to sleep on it expands my perspective. Sometimes my understanding or the information I have is limited, sometimes my mood is not in a good place, and sometimes the problem just blows over on its own (I love it when that happens).

My point is that circumstances vary. The answers probably vary, too.

[Gail]

BTW- Henry:

God bless you, man! The way has not been easy but may all be to God's glory!

[hch]

CoAspen,

I am not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as Paul.

I don't do the things I used to do. And I am not perfect.

But I don't beat up myself when I stumble into sin.

While praying, I was repenting one day and it hit me. Didn't you already confess that sin? yes. Don't you think God forgave you. yes. That can't be so. If God forgave you, why are you confessing something of which you have been forgiven?

Now when I am tempted or a particular sin comes to mind that I have repented of (when the devil is putting me on a guilt trip), I go to the PRAISE GOD mode. Thank you for forgiving me of this, for taking away the desire to do such, thank you for upholding me while Satan is seeking to do me in...

I believe God has taken care of the sins that I have confessed. I know that He loves me and I praise Him for His mercy and love and grace.

Perfect? NO. Forgiven? YES. Wanting to be like Jesus? YES.

So who's side am I on? the side that is tearing me down for my failings? Or the side that loves to turn sinners into saints?

[hch]

Gail,

Your comments are encouraging.

I recently offended a church member because I told him I was praying for him because of something he did. His attitude was How dare you judge me!

He went off on me and wanted to take it to the pastor and to the church...

I told him that if he thought they needed the blessing of my counsel, go for it.

He was quick to remind me that I had misspoken to him and I had made a stupid statement. He was right, but my comment was in response to what I perceived him to be saying rather than to what he really said.

The point: we do not always hear or process things as they are. Sometimes my mind plays tricks on me.

And Sometimes we can't agree what sin is sin.

[JoeMo]

hch,

Your testimony is amazing! I am so blessed by reading it! God chose you to pick a fight with the devil. He would not have chosen you unless He thought you could win. God is really leading in your life. You are fighting some hard battles. Remember, the bigger the battle, the sweeter the victory!

debjm,

Radical Christian? I like that! Resonate? I like that, too! Thank you for your sharing the depth of your spirituality.

Everyone else,

Thank you so much for the openness and honesty of your contributions. There is a lot of pure spirituality being shared here. Oh that other threads could show the same love and consideration for each other that is being shown here! May God fill all of us with His Spirit and love for each other and for His church!

I was at church tonight and I learned 2 things:

1. Jesus didn't die for me to make me valuable - He died for me because I already am valuable.

2. I didn't become the Christian I am by doing what I do; I do what I do because of the Christian that I am.

[hch]

JoeMo,

Have you ever heard that Church is a Hospital for sinners?

I believe it!

But Church is not a convalescent center for the incurables!

IMHO Church members have to reach the point in their lives where they die to self and recover their position as heirs to the kingdom.

But if they stagnate in their christian life, their usefulness to the Master dies and they live for self; which means that they are not in a hospital being mended for His service, but they are on life support - just prolonging their existence or putting off the inevitable.

My testimony is that I was on life support too long and almost died thinking I was right with God when He knew better.

As my worst enemy I did things that made my life more difficult than it would have been had I let God take charge.

But while this Day of Atonement has lingered, I can only praise God that He got me in time.

When I got down to the last week of the 6-weeks I had to vacate my house by Friday. I had no where to go. No money. And a choice. Tuesday morning was men's prayer group 6 AM. Go to pray? and fellowship? or stay home and pack and hope for a miracle? I went to pray.

Jason was there. he worked the night shift and was too tired to come that morning and all of a sudden he was awake. he came. He heard my need. Told his folks. They looked at the house Wed. Committed to purchase Thursday. And paid cash Friday. They let me stay almost 2 more weeks. Help me move out and I had some money to start over.

I bought a used truck and borrowed a huge trailer. Loaded it with almost 4000 pounds (2 tons). Drove over hills, highways, and back roads for 3 hours. Unloaded the trailer. Then headed back to get another load. Within a mile from where I unloaded (I was just starting back to get my next load) the bumper fell off the truck and the trailer went wild. No damage. Easy repair job. That could have happened when I had the trailer loaded and the story could have had a very different ending.

God was with me in the sale of the house that I no longer owned. He was with me during the move. And by His grace, I know He is real and His love is everlasting.

So why the trials NOW?

God is preparing me for the time of trouble. When I cannot buy and sell, I've been there and God was with me.

And when the money was all gone from my house, my mom fell and broke her hip so I moved in with her until she was able to get around.

Then with no money, no job, and a need to move back to my old neighborhood to be near my daughter's school, the Lord provided a run down mobile home. Entrance fees for both girls to go to school. It was hand to mouth, but they stayed in Church school. The bills got paid. And I went forward by faith taking on a world Vision child in Burma. It is still hand to mouth. But the Lord has provided as He sees best.

I thank God for the experience that He has seen me through. And through it all I have written several books that will be catching on when God's timing is right.

Blessings

hch (His child henry)

[debbym]

this issue of members who come to thinking that is not in agreement with the church in principle does have to be addressed for the health of the Church.

there have been and will be individuals who no longer really believe in the bible as understood by the Church, and take positions that are actually in contradiction. the answer is it is best if they gracefully acknowledge it, and find a place where they feel more comfortable. if there is a difference in principle it needs to be addressed.

but often they start working to evangelize their views from within the church, and this will also need to be addressed. it does happen, has happened and will happen again, i am sure. Given the nature of human beings, it is likely.

debjm

[JoeMo]

You ask why God is sending trials NOW?

God is preparing you for the time of trouble. When you cannot buy and sell, I God was with you.

Trials will continue until we are rescued by our King. With every victory, you are being strengthened with memories of overcoming; building those "faith" muscles and giving you encouraging remembrances of the battles already won, increasing your faith that you CAN indeed do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

That being said, I'm so sorry that you are facing so many trials. It must wear on you.

Father God, thank you for hch's testimonies here. They are a blessing to us and a testimony of your protective and love. Father, please build a hedge around hch, giving him rest from these trials. Bring him a season of abundance - not just money; but peace, happiness and rest. Thanks, Dad!

BTW - I agree that the church is a hospital for the sick (sinners) rather than a hospice for the terminally ill. But sometimes, it feels like some churches are centers of execution. I have seen teenaged girls banished (disfellowshiped) for getting pregnant, taking their whole humiliated families with them away from Christ. I have seen baptismal candidates turned away because they were wearing jewelry, struggling with quitting smoking/drinking/drugs while other long time members were still deeply steeped in the same habits. What kind of hospital turns away patients who are trying to get well while coddling those who are using the hospital as a hospice? IMO, the church is for them both - and Christ - the Great Physician will heal all those who wish to be healed. We (as men look at the outer man; while Christ looks at the heart.

[CoAspen]

Don't buy that and never will! Christ spoke to often through His parables of the single lost individual that He searched for. Only Christ knows who is truly lost, none of us has that knowledge. That is what makes the Christian God unique among all of the other Gods that people believe in.

[JoeMo]

CoAspen,

the balance that you show in all of your posts. We may not doctrinally agree on all points; but I thoroughly respect your thoughtfulness and honesty. Blessings to you!

[Woody]

[phkrause]

I absolutely agree JoeMo, the thing you really dislike, is those that can only tell you that your opinion's are worthless and you can't possibly know what your talking about.

[CoAspen]

Hate when I forget the no quote zone........

[hch]

Debjm,

the weeds can be difficult to distinguish from the flowers.

I used to pick weeds and give them to my mom because I thought they were pretty. But some of those pretty weeds out of control can really do a number on a church. But not as bad as the damage caused by the exterminators who indiscriminately practice weed control. And unfortunately sometimes the flowers that we admire most have been cross pollinated and corrupted so much that they are the real weeds that are suppressing the natural flora from doing what god would have it to do.