"If it is the Lord's will" - what does this mean?

[Robert]

Let's not get into a self-defense debate. This is concerning the question - do you, as a believer, have a time in your life when God does not intervene with keeping you safe and alive any longer?

For example, look at the following:

James 4:13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

Your thoughts?

[Robert]

Now I don't want to get into the debate "does God kill". Having said that there is evidence that when one shuns God bad things happen.

Take King Saul for example. The Bible says that he forsook the Lord (perhaps premeditated apostasy):

1 Samuel 31:1 Now the Philistines fought against Israel; the Israelites fled before them, and many fell slain on Mount Gilboa. 2 The Philistines pressed hard after Saul and his sons, and they killed his sons Jonathan, Abinadab and Malki-Shua. 3 The fighting grew fierce around Saul, and when the archers overtook him, they wounded him critically. 4 Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me." But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it.

Now look at why Saul died:

So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

How did God kill Saul?

I like Ellen White's statement:

"God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown."

Saul drove God away. The result? Saul's demise.

So this explains why some die. A believer, who turns his back on God, can bring trouble on himself/herself.

But what about those believers who do not apostatize and die before they reach a ripe old age?

[Q.E.D.]

Same old nonsense.

[Robert]

why does Bad things happen to Good people

Keep in mind what Jesus said: "there is none good but one, that is, God"

God is the measuring stick of what it means to be good!

Maybe you mean why do bad things happen to believers? I think the answer is sin.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin....

Death comes to every person because of iniquity (sin). Some live long lives, but yet they die. Some believers live short lives.

Ultimately isn't this mess God's problem? I didn't say His fault, but His problem because He knew Lucifer would rebel against His agape love and establish his own brand of love - i.e., the love of self.

Does God, out of mercy, allow a believer to retire early to his/her dusty bed? The Bible seems to acknowledge this.

[Robert]

Same old nonsense.

Why is it nonsense?

[Robert]

Here's the story of a believer who died prematurely due to a sickness:

John 11:1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.... 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick." 4 When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death (i.e., the 2nd death). No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." 5 Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days....He (Jesus) went on to tell them (the disciples), "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."..."Lazarus is dead"....17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. ....20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. 21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died."

Now why did Jesus allow Lazarus to die? He could have prevented it.

[Robert]

Here's another one where believers died prematurely:

Let's first look at the setting:

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34 There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. 3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart (mind) that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died.

We all sin, but we do not fall over and die the next minute. The sin here was lying to the Holy.

I remember telling God that if such and such happened I would sell my son's piano and give the money to the church. Such and such happened and I pocketed the money. That was 20 years ago. I didn't fall over and die, but I have acknowledge my sin. Lying to God is lying to the Holy Spirit.

Why did the believers, Ananias & Sapphira, die prematurely? Why did God allow this?

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Same old nonsense.

Why is it nonsense?

Your theories attack basic Biblical principles and the sovereignty of God.

And now here you go again with "If God is love how can He let someone die and not protect them from death or injury?"

Your answer will be "It's due to sin because God has to withdraw his protection from them and let them die as the result of some kind of sin in their lives and therefore God allows Satan to destroy them."

This may all be well and good until you apply it to the ultimate destruction of the wicked at the end of time because of your theory that "God will never directly destroy even the wicked lost."

Just watch and see where all this goes when the "players enter upon your enchanted gamefield."

[Robert]

Quote:

...you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal?

Notice that they could have kept some of the money for themselves. The money was theirs. They could have said "here is 50% of the money", but they didn't. They basically said "here's all the money" while keeping some for themselves. That's a lie!

What's the issue here?

The Holy Spirit was working mightily in the early church. All the members "were of one heart and mind". Christ was being perfectly reflected in their midst because "no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had."

In other words the Spirit of God was working through the members of the early church in such away that they were perfectly reflecting God's agape love - "a love that is not self-seeking."

Now Satan comes along and convinces two believers to bring sin back into the picture. What sin? The sin of self-righteousness - a pretend righteousness if you will.

You see self-righteousness is a lie. It's not the Holy Spirit producing good things through you, it's you pretending to be righteous.

The sin of Ananias & Sapphira was about looking righteous (which is self-righteousness) while keeping a portion back for themselves.

In other words their motive wasn't actuated by agape that comes from God's Spirit, but rather from their love of self. It's the sin of looking good on the outside for the praise of men, but on the inside it's done for a selfish motive.

Because Ananias & Sapphira reintroduced this lie (self-righteousness) God allowed them to expire.

Why?

[Robert]

This may all be well and good until you apply it to the ultimate distruction of the wicked at the end of time because of your theory that "God will never directly destroy even the wicked lost."

[Robert]

Because Ananias & Sapphira reintroduced this lie (self-righteousness) God allowed them to expire. Why?

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Self-righteousness is a lie. It's always done for selfish reasons. Here's the best example:

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men : they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments....

That is, the Pharisees dressed to be noticed. They looked all holy on the outside, but on the inside, well here's Christ:

25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence! .... 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every impurity. 28 In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

You see self-righteousness is the one sin that can keep you out of heaven. It's the sin against the Spirit of God.

A self-righteous person doesn't need God because he is righteous in his own eyes. This sin is very dangerous. Perhaps that's why God allowed Ananias, with Sapphira his wife to pass on. That doesn't mean they are eternally lost.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

This may all be well and good until you apply it to the ultimate distruction of the wicked at the end of time because of your theory that "God will never directly destroy even the wicked lost."

What did I write early on?

Quote:

"Now I don't want to get into the debate 'does God kill.'"

So that's not my purpose.....

We will see. Anxiously awaiting the results. . .Let the game begin.

[Robert]

Then I am lying to you?

My aim is to discuss the subject of this post. Others may take it another direction, not me. You are welcome to discuss the topic.

[Robert]

A self-righteous person doesn't need God because he is righteous in his own eyes. This sin is very dangerous. Perhaps that's why God allowed Ananias, with Sapphira his wife to pass on. That doesn't mean they are eternally lost.

It's not that Ananias & Sapphira were like the Pharisees. No, they were believers who were also experiencing God's agape love too....So I believe they will come up in the first resurrection. I know they were believers because of Acts 4:32

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had."

Then of course we read, "Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit...?'"

So he was a believer, experiencing God's agape love, who was deceived by Satan....But before that he and his wife were reflecting the self-emptying love of God.

[Robert]

So here, in the book of Acts, you have God's church perfectly reflecting His love and then along comes Satan (through Ananias and Sapphira) and ruins the church fully reflecting God's love.

I believe that's why He allowed Ananias and Sapphira to die.

[bonnie]

Then I am lying to you?

My aim is to discuss the subject of this post. Others may take it another direction, not me. You are welcome to discuss the topic.

[bonnie]

It is very dangerous isn't it? There is more than one way to be self-righteous.

Quote:

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had."

Then of course we read, "Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit...?'"

So he was a believer, experiencing God's agape love, who was deceived by Satan....But before that he and his wife were reflecting the self-emptying love of God. [/quote']

So God doesn't or won't destroy those whose heart is filled with Satan and have lied to the Holy Spirit? Nice...Robert's selected messages.

[Robert]

So God doesn't or won't destroy those whose heart is filled with Satan and have lied to the Holy Spirit?

Destroy is a strong word considering the context of "Ananias and Sapphira". All we have is, "'You have not lied to men but to God.' 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died."

We can't add to record....God apparently allowed both to die as a warning against self-righteousness.

Keep in mind prior to this the church was perfectly reflecting God's self-emptying love.

Satan, through "Ananias and Sapphira", brought back "self" into the picture.

[Robert]

We can't add to record....God apparently allowed both to die as a warning against self-righteousness.

So God allowed something bad (death) as a warning to others not to go the same route. This does not mean "Ananias and Sapphira" are lost.

[Robert]

Nice...Robert's selected messages.

Is this necessary, Bonnie? Let's try, by the grace of God, not to be condescending.

[bonnie]

Now Satan comes along and convinces two believers to bring sin back into the picture. What sin? The sin of self-righteousness - a pretend righteousness if you will.

You see self-righteousness is a lie. It's not the Holy Spirit producing good things through you, it's you pretending to be righteous.

Other forms of self-righteousness are just as much a lie and just as dangerous.

There will be a day of reckoning for all.Many will be surprised,as in those that tell others what God wants of them and explains to God, I didn't have to,so I didn't. Or God,pay attention here,I didn't have to but I did anyway.

For years you have wrapped your claimed beliefs around the legalist,those you define as doing something because they Have to in order to improve their chances of eternal life,while piously claiming I,Robert,don't have to.

Whether it is your definition of a legalist,or defining yourself as being under the "umbrella of grace" The I have to,or the I don't have to mentality just isn't going to cut it.

If you truly in your heart believe that "you should be working for the wealth of others and maintaining your excess for your own use is "self seeking",living as the early church,you would be living a much different life.

Not perfectly of course,no one can,but your belief would be reflected in your actions.If true,you would be unable to hide it. You would not be driving a very expensive vehicle,showing it off online while there are those hungry around you. Condemning in very strong words those doing exactly as you are doing while exempting yourself(and yes you did with "I don't have to"

If your words reflect true conviction on your part,You do have to

The sin of Ananias & Sapphira was about looking righteous (which is self-righteousness) while keeping a portion back for themselves.

In other words their motive wasn't actuated by agape that comes from God's Spirit, but rather from their love of self. It's the sin of looking good on the outside for the praise of men, but on the inside it's done for a selfish motive.

Because Ananias & Sapphira reintroduced this lie (self-righteousness) God allowed them to expire.

Why?

[bonnie]

Is this necessary, Bonnie? Let's try, by the grace of God, not to be condescending.

Actually,I am not being condescending. This is exactly what you do.Select those texts that you think bolster your point of view and your claimed beliefs,leaving out all those that don't.

It would be like me quoting the bible "If a man doesn't work,he doesn't eat" to mean that any person not working should not be helped.The bible says that is true

[Robert]

For years you .....

Bonnie, the subject is "do you, as a believer, have a time in your life when God does not intervene with keeping you safe and alive any longer?"

Let's stop

[Robert]

Actually,I am not being condescending.

Let's stick with the topic....

[bonnie]

Bonnie, the subject is "do you, as a believer, have a time in your life when God does not intervene with keeping you safe and alive any longer?"

Let's stop

The subject is not a "time in my life"

It is...........

If God wants you to die,you will.If He doesn't,you won't.

This is what you have claimed in two previous threads.

Now if you can quit skirting the questions and try answering directly and honestly,I will be more than happy to answer you. Stop trying to deflect away from what you have claimed over and over