Will the real Jack Sequiera please stand up

[Robert]

And I reply (to the police officer), "but I didn't break the posted speed limit - how can you charge me with his crime?"

Was Jesus guilty of a crime (i.e., sin)? I hope your answer is "no"!

Now you are expecting me to believe that God's law condemned Christ for crimes He didn't commit? Please!

No ethical law will charge the innocent with the crimes of the perpetrator - no law!!!

Ez 18:20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

In other words guilt can't be legally & ethically transferred from the transgressor (i.e., sinners) to an innocent man (Christ).

[Robert]

How does the gospel solve this ethical problem?

At the incarnation God the Father combined our corporate humanity, in Mary's womb, with Christ's Deity.

By corporate humanity I mean a life that all of us, male & female, share. We are simply the multiplication of Adam's fallen life. That life Christ, as God, took upon Himself. He took us into Himself in order to legally redeem us from the curse of the law.

You see the law requires that you die. Did your humanity die "in Christ"? Paul says "yes" - that's common knowledge for those who know the gospel:

Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self (our life from Adam) was crucified with him (why?) so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with....

So "in Christ" your life, my life from Adam, died in Christ Jesus. Hence you have been delivered from under the law through the body of Christ.

Here's Romans 7:6 "we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound".

[Robert]

That life Christ, as God, took upon Himself. He took us into Himself in order to legally redeem us from the curse of the law.

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption." [Ellen White]

[Robert]

Notice God's solution for our humanity indwelt with sin:

Rom 6:6 (last part) "so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with...."

Now go to Romans 8:3 "God condemned sin in the body (sin in the flesh) ...."

How? Again, not by trying to improve on humanity, but by condemning our fallen humanity polluted with sin.

You see Christ, as the son of man, never sinned, but yet He took our humanity polluted with sin. So the minute the son of man was born He came under the condemnation of the law.

Again, not for sinning, but because He retained our humanity indwelt with our bent-to-self (sin - iniquity). Proof?

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law....

To be under law means the curse, not for just disobeying, but for having indwelling sin. The law condemns all sin, not just our failure in our outward behavior. So God condemned sin at its source - indwelling sin.

[Robert]

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Some, I have read, insist that "born under the law" means under the regulation of the Jewish government. In other words He was subject to their secular laws. Some have said He was born under the ceremonial laws.

Well, all of the above is baloney (for lack of a better word). Here's the contextual reason that Christ was "born under the law":

Verse 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law....

The phrase "under law" means condemnation - see Gal 3:10, but also Romans 3:19

"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, (why?) so that every mouth may be closed and all the world (the human race) may become guilty before God."

You see Christ came to deliver us from "under law" to "under grace". Why? The law condemns sinners! He took the curse, by assuming us, so that we could be delivered from its curse.

Again, Romans 7:6

"Now, however, we are free from the Law, because we died (in Christ - see Rom 6:6/7:4) to that which once held us prisoners."

You see the law places us in death row, the minute we are born, awaiting execution:

Gal 3:23 "the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith (Jesus) should be revealed. 24 And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith. 25 Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.

Folks, we have been legally delivered from under the law. No longer when you sin can the law say "you must die". The law can't touch us because of our position "in Christ".

[Robert]

That's why legalists HATE Jack Sequeira! If those who are law oriented want to throw stones they need to dig up Paul's bones and stone him. Why? Jack got it from Paul and Paul was hand picked by Christ Himself!

The fact is, Mr. Traditional SDA, we believers are NOT under law. The law can't touch us. We are righteous "in Christ" alone.

Does that mean I can have sex outside marriage; drink beer; kill; murder, etc and the law can't touch me?

Yes! That's what it means.

Now the law of the land may touch me, but God's law won't touch me. Why? As far as it is concerned I died when Christ died.

Now, the law can't condemn me, but as a lifestyle I won't be able to conscientiously condone these sins. Why? My mind (heart) is no longer in harmony with my sinful nature. The two are opposed to each other because of the new birth.

But right now I don't want to write about "works of faith" because that's not my point here. My point is that Christ has legally delivered the human race from under law. Those who have accepted Christ have moved from death to life and the law can no longer demand of them obedience in return for life.

[Gibs]

I for one Robert don't agree with your assement of what Paul taught. You choose and pick what suits your fancy. Now I don't know Jack Seq. and make no comment of his teachings.

The solid truth is Paul taught what Jesus did and this kind of statement by Jesus should make ones of your theology sit up and think,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Self must die, to never be ressurrected again. Never to live anymore by the flesh but by the Spirit, that is Christ in you and Paul states that is our hope of Glory.

His law must be in the heart, if is not that one is under the law. When it is in the heart it is that ones law also, it is love, love only can and will fulfill the law. When the law is the love of one to do he no longer is under the law but is one of the law. Then With, Of and For Him!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Okay, then we are under law and Paul is a liar?

[Robert]

If you do not understand Paul you'll go off the deep end in your theology. You'll branch off into legalism, which is condemned by Paul.

You need to understand Romans 7:1-6

Now, dear brothers and sisters -- you who are familiar with the law -- don't you know that the law applies only to a person who is still living?

If you are dead the law no longer applies to you, i.e., it no longer has jurisdiction over your life.

2 Let me illustrate. When a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.

In the illustration the woman represents us. The 1st husband the law. The 2nd husband, Christ.

In order for us to get with the 2nd husband, Christ, we must be divorced from the law. If we are married to the law and Christ (as in salvation by works and faith) we are committing spiritual adultery. That's Paul's point.

Now in the "illustration" of Paul's the law dies, but in the application (verse 4,6) the law can't die. Why? The law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he is living. So who dies?

The gospel solution is found in verse 4:

4 The law no longer holds you in its power (has jurisdiction over you), because you died to its power (jurisdiction) when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit....6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ on the cross, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God (not under fear of the law), not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law (obey and live, disobey and die), but in the new way, by the Spirit (agape written on the heart).

[Robert]

Here's Jack:

Romans 7:1-6

Here's a portion:

If you are not delivered from under the law, and you call yourself a Christian, you are guilty of committing adultery, because the illustration says, if the woman marries the second man while she’s still married to the first man, she’s committing adultery. I have a feeling that we have a lot of spiritual adulterers and adulteresses in this church. Because they still want to be under the law.

[Guest]

[Robert]

In other words you can't depend on Christ's righteousness and your law keeping at the same time. That's spiritual adultery. You are either married to the law or you are married to Christ. The hybrid of that is Babylon, of which Laodicea needs to repent and exit.

[skyblue888]

Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything. It imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, and all the pardon of sin. It is obtained through faith, the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood that is of value beyond estimate. This righteousness of Christ is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. This is not our obedience, but the obedience of Christ in and through us.

sky

[Gibs]

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

And Paul said that one. And I say do nothing, reap nothing!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

That's why legalists HATE Jack Sequeira! If those who are law oriented want to throw stones they need to dig up Paul's bones and stone him. Why? Jack got it from Paul and Paul was hand picked by Christ Himself!

The fact is, Mr. Traditional SDA, we believers are NOT under law. The law can't touch us. We are righteous "in Christ" alone.

Does that mean I can have sex outside marriage; drink beer; kill; murder, etc and the law can't touch me?

Yes! That's what it means.

Sequeira got this from Paul??? The Paul who said these?

ESV | ‎1 Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, ‎10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. ‎11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

ESV | ‎Ga 5:21 I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things [Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, ‎20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, ‎21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. Gal 5:19-21] will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted By: Robert

Now the law of the land may touch me, but God's law won't touch me. Why? As far as it is concerned I died when Christ died. Now, the law can't condemn me,

So now, man is more just than God!!!

Originally Posted By: Rob

but as a lifestyle I won't be able to conscientiously condone these sins. Why? My mind (heart) is no longer in harmony with my sinful nature. The two are opposed to each other because of the new birth.

Those who have experienced the new birth of the Spirit have this for witness:

ESV | ‎Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ‎23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. ‎24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

ESV | ‎Eph 4:28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

ESV | ‎2 Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Originally Posted By: Rob

My point is that Christ has legally delivered the human race from under law. Those who have accepted Christ have moved from death to life and the law can no longer demand of them obedience in return for life.

Christ did no such thing!!! Here is what He did:

ESV | ‎Ga 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

ESV | ‎Mt 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

ESV | ‎1 Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. ‎9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. ‎10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

[Gibs]

It is a peculiar people that know they can in Christ and His Merits become overcomers!

"There is nothing so offensive to God as sin. Instead of making void the law of God by continuing in sin, every truly converted soul will be walking in the path of humble obedience to all of God's commandments. They will search the Scriptures that they might know the truth. Who hath bewitched the impenitent, the transgressor, that sin is chosen rather than obedience? It is the power of Satan that came to Adam and Eve in Eden, the deceiving, bewitching power of the fallen angel. . . . {UL 209.5}

How few talk about this great sacrifice of the life of Jesus to save the guilty sinner! If we appreciated this love manifested by God for our souls we would be elevated by taking hold of the merits of Jesus Christ, for without the righteousness of Christ man could not give to God perfect obedience. . . . {UL 209.6}

He condescended to this great sacrifice, not that sin in man should become a virtue, not that sin might be made righteousness. He took the steps that man is required to take in conversion. He went forward in baptism, and when He came up out of the water He kneeled down and offered up such a prayer to His Father as Heaven had never heard before. --Manuscript 25, July 14, 1887, "A Peculiar People." {UL 209.7}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

This is not our obedience, but the obedience of Christ in and through us.

Yes, but not without our cooperation. The problem is God will not work in us if we are depending on that work to save us. Why? That would build pride....

[Robert]

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

True, but those "things" have no merit. You are no better than the poor, wretched publican saved by grace.

[Robert]

the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? ....And such were some of you.

If you look carefully the church in Corinth was having problems not with legalism, but with living for the flesh.

Paul's question to them was why are you living like you did before conversion? They were a poor witness, however they were not considered "the unrighteous" because they had accepted Christ and "in Christ" they were perfect.

[Robert]

Mt 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Look at the context, Gerry. The question asked was what good thing must I do to gain heaven? His mindset was OC. He wanted heaven by law, not Christ's righteousness.

Anyone who wants heaven by law must obey the law in order to enter life. That's the terms of the OC.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? ....And such were some of you.

If you look carefully the church in Corinth was having problems not with legalism, but with living for the flesh.

Paul's question to them was why are you living like you did before conversion? They were a poor witness, however they were not considered "the unrighteous" because they had accepted Christ and "in Christ" they were perfect.

Is tjis not living for the flesh?

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's why legalists HATE Jack Sequeira! If those who are law oriented want to throw stones they need to dig up Paul's bones and stone him. Why? Jack got it from Paul and Paul was hand picked by Christ Himself!

The fact is, Mr. Traditional SDA, we believers are NOT under law. The law can't touch us. We are righteous "in Christ" alone.

Does that mean I can have sex outside marriage; drink beer; kill; murder, etc and the law can't touch me?

Yes! That's what it means.

[Robert]

... No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, ....

True....but be very careful. We aren't talking about being "under law", but under grace. Under grace you can't condone sin.

Take King David for example: We know how his nature consumed him for a season and that God sent Nathan the prophet to open David's eyes.

When God opened David's eyes he repented, but as you said there were consequences. When David's sin was brought out into the light did he say, "No, I like committing adultery...there's nothing wrong with it, it's great...it's fun...I think everyone should do it"? Did He say "and if some woman's husband gets in the way wipe him out"? No.

David committed terrible sins, but God gave him grace, not law. The consequences was the baby died because God did not bless the situation. Condoning know sin is living it as a lifestyle much like homosexuality. Homosexuals might have struggles....might fall into sin daily, but as long as they make Christ their righteousness the law can't touch them. Sooner or later Christ will deliver them from their sin.

[Robert]

Is this not living for the flesh?

It's the flesh in control, but not condoned. A Christian, even if he is struggling with sin must never say sin is okay. Sin is a killer...it's a deceiver. God hates sin, but loves the sinner (as you know).

[Robert]

Does that mean I can have sex outside marriage; drink beer; kill; murder, etc and the law can't touch me?

Yes! That's what it means.

Quote all of me, not just selected parts....

[M. T. Cross]

That's why legalists HATE Jack Sequeira! If those who are law oriented want to throw stones they need to dig up Paul's bones and stone him. Why? Jack got it from Paul and Paul was hand picked by Christ Himself!

The fact is, Mr. Traditional SDA, we believers are NOT under law. The law can't touch us. We are righteous "in Christ" alone.

Does that mean I can have sex outside marriage; drink beer; kill; murder, etc and the law can't touch me?

Yes! That's what it means.

Now the law of the land may touch me, but God's law won't touch me. Why? As far as it is concerned I died when Christ died.

Now, the law can't condemn me, but as a lifestyle I won't be able to conscientiously condone these sins. Why? My mind (heart) is no longer in harmony with my sinful nature. The two are opposed to each other because of the new birth.

But right now I don't want to write about "works of faith" because that's not my point here. My point is that Christ has legally delivered the human race from under law. Those who have accepted Christ have moved from death to life and the law can no longer demand of them obedience in return for life.

So if all that is true, why would I ever convert to Christianity? I can keep going as I am, and your God is still going to save me - right?