Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Of course though Tom, if you want, as a moderator to deny the use of logic in this discussion, then I suppose logic has to be abandoned. Sorry, this has tickled me, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2013 OK, let's go back to that 'equivocation' argument. Two separate things: God's absolute objective morality, and human responses to that. I'll try to keep them separate. My question is how we get direct access to the former, without the latter intervening. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 OK, let's go back to that 'equivocation' argument. Two separate things: God's absolute objective morality, and human responses to that. I'll try to keep them separate. My question is how we get direct access to the former, without the latter intervening. Well the first point is that God has revealed His absolute standards of morality to humanity. The second is that we suppress that truth in unrighteousness, because of sin. So the logic would then be, that we have to avail ourselves of the first and recognise the second as our love of sin and turn away from it, so that we can be in a place where God can communicate His morality to us without our sin stained glasses getting in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Quote: Well the first point is that God has revealed His absolute standards of morality to humanity.The second is that we suppress that truth in unrighteousness, because of sin. So the logic would then be, that we have to avail ourselves of the first and recognise the second as our love of sin and turn away from it, so that we can be in a place where God can communicate His morality to us without our sin stained glasses getting in the way. Who in the physical or human realm is going to be the "judge of what is absolute and what is relative morality? You, Twilight? Maybe SDA's as a group should decide for the whole planet (We have the "prophet"!) No may be all Christendom should vote; and the majority wins? Nope? How about just us that hear God's voice? What I'm getting at is that even if I concede that there is an absolute standard for morality, who in this physical realm knows without a shadow of a doubt what "absolute morality" is unless they throw "faith" into the mix.? Don't tell me it's what's in the Bible, either. 60% to 70% of the world would disagree with you on that. Also, I'm with Tom on the rules of logic and the definition of logical fallacy, etc. This is a discussion about morality, not the laws of logic or the rules of engagement for a high school debate meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2013 OK, take out my editorialising from a few pages ago, and we're left with this. I think that it's fair to characterise the claims of those who subscribe to the notion of an absolute morality as follows: "My morality and God's absolute, objective morality are identical. Therefore I am right, and more than that I am morally good. Those who disagree with me are closing their eyes and hearts to God's absolute, objective morality, and therefore are wrong, and more than that are morally evil." Is this fair? Unfair? Partial? Please explain how this is not the direct consequence of saying: Quote: Well the first point is that God has revealed His absolute standards of morality to humanity. The second is that we suppress that truth in unrighteousness, because of sin. *Unless* those who argue for the existence of an absolute morality are willing to turn that critical lens on themselves too, and recognise that they, too, are Fallen and have an incomplete understanding of what God has revealed. Genuinely trying to understand. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Quote: Well the first point is that God has revealed His absolute standards of morality to humanity.The second is that we suppress that truth in unrighteousness, because of sin. So the logic would then be, that we have to avail ourselves of the first and recognise the second as our love of sin and turn away from it, so that we can be in a place where God can communicate His morality to us without our sin stained glasses getting in the way. Who in the physical or human realm is going to be the "judge of what is absolute and what is relative morality? You, Twilight? Maybe SDA's as a group should decide for the whole planet (We have the "prophet"!) No may be all Christendom should vote; and the majority wins? Nope? How about just us that hear God's voice? What I'm getting at is that even if I concede that there is an absolute standard for morality, who in this physical realm knows without a shadow of a doubt what "absolute morality" is unless they throw "faith" into the mix.? Don't tell me it's what's in the Bible, either. 60% to 70% of the world would disagree with you on that. Also, I'm with Tom on the rules of logic and the definition of logical fallacy, etc. This is a discussion about morality, not the laws of logic or the rules of engagement for a high school debate meet. Strawman, this discussion is not about whether I can be the sole judge of morality... I am also not sure where this fervour for banning discussions of laws of logic has come from... Without it we cannot even discuss the questions at hand. How can we ban the discussion of logic and logical fallacies, if we are trying to reason our way through this discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 We cannot discuss anything if we abandon logic and forbid the use of informal logic language... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 "My morality and God's absolute, objective morality are identical. No one has claimed this, so your argument starts on a false premise and a strawman. The discussion is whether morality is subjective, objective or "other". So this post is irrelevant to the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 *Unless* those who argue for the existence of an absolute morality are willing to turn that critical lens on themselves too, and recognise that they, too, are Fallen and have an incomplete understanding of what God has revealed. Genuinely trying to understand. We need to establish something here. The basis for the claim that absolute morality has been revealed is from the Bible. The basis for the claim that people suppress that knowledge of that absolute morality is also from the Bible. The foundation of this argument is a biblical one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2013 Fair enough. But my question is related: if morality is absolute, so what? What are the implications for how we would live? And, even prior to that: how do we know morality is absolute? How do we discover this truth? Both very important questions, and ones you've so far been content to elide. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2013 I don't think anyone is 'banning' logic. Just suggesting a focus on the topic. That will involve using the tools of logic, but when the discussion becomes about hammers rather than houses, that's when there's a problem if the topic is houses. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Twilight, I find it very difficult to carry on a meaningful dialog when you consistently refuse to adderess challenges to your flawed methodology by simply calling the equivalent of a "technical foul" based on your personal rules of engagement. If this is going to be a discussion about the validity of your rules of logic and debate, I give up - I'm outta here! If this is going to be a discussion about the merits of absolute vs. relative morality, I'm in! Your call... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Quote: The foundation of this argument is a biblical one. You've already lost more than half of the planet by that assertion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Fair enough. But my question is related: if morality is absolute, so what? What are the implications for how we would live? And, even prior to that: how do we know morality is absolute? How do we discover this truth? Both very important questions, and ones you've so far been content to elide. I have been making the argument, I suspect (judging by the various ad hominem responses), that it has not been understood... The God of the Bible claims an absolute standard of morality, He also reveals that absolute standard through His Bible. That very claim is based on Gods authority, so it is circular. But here is the kicker for those that want to deny that, without that there is no basis for morality whatsoever... Lets flip the argument over. If absolute morality cannot be comprehended, then we cannot be judged by it and God is unfair. Now as a non-Christian, I can understand that you might make this argument Bravus. But it is totally beyond me, why professed Christians would support that argument as some have done in this thread? I can only think, they have not thought through the issue logically, to its absurd conclusion, the only alternative I can think of is that it is a direct attack on Gods right to judge sinners as sinners, for whatever misguided reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Twilight, I find it very difficult to carry on a meaningful dialog when you consistently refuse to adderess challenges to your flawed methodology by simply calling the equivalent of a "technical foul" based on your personal rules of engagement. If this is going to be a discussion about the validity of your rules of logic and debate, I give up - I'm outta here! If this is going to be a discussion about the merits of absolute vs. relative morality, I'm in! Your call... I reject your claim here. I have addressed nearly everything that has been presented so far. As to the other charge, I have given my reasons for rejecting certain arguments. If my logic is faulty, please explain why, but just claiming it is faulty is an argument appealing to opinion, which is arbitrary and therefore illogical. Do you think I should accept an arbitrary argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2013 Right. Those who disagree with your position are damned and attackers of God. I think we're done here. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Still...assuming there is an absolute morality, what of it? How are we to know what these are and how do we apply it in our lives? (Not directed at anyone in particular, just made a quick reply) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I don't think anyone is 'banning' logic. Just suggesting a focus on the topic. That will involve using the tools of logic, but when the discussion becomes about hammers rather than houses, that's when there's a problem if the topic is houses. Logic and morality are both subsets of the same transcendental arguments. Ban the use of one and all you have a futile beating of chests with no rational basis for critique... Now if we want to ban critique, then ban the use of informal logic in the discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Right. Those who disagree with your position are damned and attackers of God. I think we're done here. Why not logically argue against my conclusion? :-) But remember my promise earlier? Here you have displayed a moral outrage, when you claim you live by subjective moral standards. If you do live by subjective moral standards, why would my response be wrong? :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Still...assuming there is an absolute morality, what of it? How are we to know what these are and how do we apply it in our lives? (Not directed at anyone in particular, just made a quick reply) Depends on your worldview. If you are a Christian, then God reveals His standard of absolute morality to you, so that you can understand it and avoid the judgement by accepting Christs sacrifice and payment for the breaking of that absolute moral standard. If you are not a Christian, then why would absolute morality bother you anyway? But the basis of Gods absolute morality is the Ten Commandments. Anyone with a Bible can be aware of those standards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Quote: The foundation of this argument is a biblical one. You've already lost more than half of the planet by that assertion. Heres the kicker... Does that make it wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Originally Posted By: cricket Still...assuming there is an absolute morality, what of it? How are we to know what these are and how do we apply it in our lives? (Not directed at anyone in particular, just made a quick reply) Depends on your worldview. If you are a Christian, then God reveals His standard of absolute morality to you, so that you can understand it and avoid the judgement by accepting Christs sacrifice and payment for the breaking of that absolute moral standard. If you are not a Christian, then why would absolute morality bother you anyway? But the basis of Gods absolute morality is the Ten Commandments. Anyone with a Bible can be aware of those standards... Then, from a personal struggle I have, is it morally right to have plastic surgery? There is nothing I can find in the 10 Commandments...and God has revealed to me nothing else regarding it. Can you, as a Christian, answer that question for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Depends on your worldview. If you are a Christian, then God reveals His standard of absolute morality to you, so that you can understand it and avoid the judgement by accepting Christs sacrifice and payment for the breaking of that absolute moral standard. If you are not a Christian, then why would absolute morality bother you anyway? But the basis of Gods absolute morality is the Ten Commandments. Anyone with a Bible can be aware of those standards... Then, from a personal struggle I have, is it morally right to have plastic surgery? There is nothing I can find in the 10 Commandments...and God has revealed to me nothing else regarding it. Can you, as a Christian, answer that question for me? Because of the personal nature of your question and the vagueness of your motives for considering plastic surgery, I would be very cautious to answer and I would not think this thread is the place for such a discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 So, you don't know. Okay. I just thought that there might be an absolute moral standard that would apply universally. It's okay. No one else I've ever asked can answer me either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 So, you don't know. Okay. I just thought that there might be an absolute moral standard that would apply universally. It's okay. No one else I've ever asked can answer me either. 1. You did not give enough information in your query. 2. It is a personal matter in a public forum. 3. It is off topic. You can of course message me privately if you do want to discuss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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