Members phkrause Posted January 9, 2013 Members Share Posted January 9, 2013 Then, from a personal struggle I have, is it morally right to have plastic surgery? There is nothing I can find in the 10 Commandments...and God has revealed to me nothing else regarding it. Can you, as a Christian, answer that question for me? I would tend to say on this, that its a personal thing between you and God. I know that's not a great answer, but only God knows your motive's for wanting plastic surgery. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 1. There is enough information there. It's either right or it's wrong. 2. So? I chose to share it. 3. It's a question about morality and this is a thread about morality. (Have to log off for a while...off to robotics club!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Originally Posted By: Bravus Right. Those who disagree with your position are damned and attackers of God. I think we're done here. Why not logically argue against my conclusion? :-) But remember my promise earlier? Here you have displayed a moral outrage, when you claim you live by subjective moral standards. If you do live by subjective moral standards, why would my response be wrong? :-) I have now gone back and amended my original conclusion, to re-assess and qualify my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 1. There is enough information there. It's either right or it's wrong.2. So? I chose to share it. 3. It's a question about morality and this is a thread about morality. (Have to log off for a while...off to robotics club!) There is not enough information here. You would have to qualify your motives. But to answer your question: Is plastic surgery of itself wrong? Of course not if used for medical reasons. Is it wrong to use it in the pursuit of vanity. Of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I have already dealt with this point with Bravus. It is a common fallacy of equivocation, using one word with two meanings in the wrong way to suit the argument... I am NOT Bravus...but if he asked the question as I have, I have good company.... So, since **I** have ask the question, and you haven't answered it with me, I ask you to indulge me the question.... A person, whomever it may be, understands absolute morality. Does absolute morality allow for personal growth and understanding of absolute morality? If so, can it still be considered absolute if we allow for personal growth and greater understanding of the absolutes? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 There is not enough information here. You would have to qualify your motives. But to answer your question: Is plastic surgery of itself wrong? Of course not if used for medical reasons. Is it wrong to use it in the pursuit of vanity. Of course... I believe there was enough information given. How do you know it is absolutely not wrong if used for medical reasons? Likewise, how do you know it is wrong to use in the pursuit of vanity? Are there varying degrees of vanity in which it might be absolutely wrong? If so, who is to decide where the threshold lies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Originally Posted By: Twilight II I have already dealt with this point with Bravus. It is a common fallacy of equivocation, using one word with two meanings in the wrong way to suit the argument... A person, whomever it may be, understands absolute morality. Does absolute morality allow for personal growth and understanding of absolute morality? If so, can it still be considered absolute if we allow for personal growth and greater understanding of the absolutes? You might want to rephrase your question, as it is not very clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Originally Posted By: Twilight II There is not enough information here. You would have to qualify your motives. But to answer your question: Is plastic surgery of itself wrong? Of course not if used for medical reasons. Is it wrong to use it in the pursuit of vanity. Of course... I believe there was enough information given. How do you know it is absolutely not wrong if used for medical reasons? Likewise, how do you know it is wrong to use in the pursuit of vanity? Are there varying degrees of vanity in which it might be absolutely wrong? If so, who is to decide where the threshold lies? 1. The pursuit of vanity is wrong absolutely. 2. The pursuit of healing and health is not wrong. I think you are equivocating and confusing the standard of absolute morality, with the response to absolute morality. Like I pointed out to Bravus, unless you discuss them seperately, you are always going to be equivocating, which is self defeating logically... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted January 10, 2013 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2013 Quote: From Twilight --I think you are equivocating and confusing the standard of absolute morality, with the response to absolute morality. Like I pointed out to Bravus, unless you discuss them seperately, you are always going to be equivocating, which is self defeating logically... I think we are reading and looking for an understanding of your presuppositional argument by asking for an application of it in real life. This would help us to establish the value of it in practical or pragmatic application. to suggest equivocation is to suggest someone is in some way avoiding the truth, where i see an attempt to learn and understand. But then i am often naive, perhaps i am in error. i do believe that to hold to the premise that God's word is true and all reality is woven from that truth does present personal challenge to those who think and believe otherwise, and you cannot avoid a conflict. And there are philosophers who have defended themselves philosophically in this conflict in quite a variety of ways. The supremacy of God has been asserted in many ways. Hopefully to enable each kind of person to recognize it and to find rejoicing in the truth. deb deb Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Quote: From Twilight --I think you are equivocating and confusing the standard of absolute morality, with the response to absolute morality. Like I pointed out to Bravus, unless you discuss them seperately, you are always going to be equivocating, which is self defeating logically... I think we are reading and looking for an understanding of your presuppositional argument by asking for an application of it in real life. This would help us to establish the value of it in practical or pragmatic application. to suggest equivocation is to suggest someone is in some way avoiding the truth, where i see an attempt to learn and understand. But then i am often naive, perhaps i am in error. i do believe that to hold to the premise that God's word is true and all reality is woven from that truth does present personal challenge to those who think and believe otherwise, and you cannot avoid a conflict. And there are philosophers who have defended themselves philosophically in this conflict in quite a variety of ways. The supremacy of God has been asserted in many ways. Hopefully to enable each kind of person to recognize it and to find rejoicing in the truth. deb deb Until we come to the place were we can separate the two, then discussion is very difficult. Equivocation is the switching of a meaning of a word, when the word has more than one meaning, to justify a position, with the incorrect meaning. This also can apply to concepts etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 10, 2013 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2013 What is morality? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 1. The pursuit of vanity is wrong absolutely.2. The pursuit of healing and health is not wrong. I think you are equivocating and confusing the standard of absolute morality, with the response to absolute morality. Like I pointed out to Bravus, unless you discuss them seperately, you are always going to be equivocating, which is self defeating logically... Thanks for your opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 You might want to rephrase your question, as it is not very clear. It's a straight forward question, Twilight...Let's use you as the example... You understand "Absolute Morality" and you live it...Does this morality allow you to grow? IOWs, if you believed that "thou shalt not kill" also, ONE DAY, extended to a varient of that, say "Thou shalt not call a person a bad name".... the result is that not only do you have an understanding that you should not kill, but now, you understand that to call a person a bad name is tantamount to killing his ego and so, you refuse to call anyone a bad name.... Are you allowed to grow with an understanding of Absolute Morality? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Originally Posted By: Twilight II You might want to rephrase your question, as it is not very clear. It's a straight forward question, Twilight...Let's use you as the example... You understand "Absolute Morality" and you live it...Does this morality allow you to grow? IOWs, if you believed that "thou shalt not kill" also, ONE DAY, extended to a varient of that, say "Thou shalt not call a person a bad name".... the result is that not only do you have an understanding that you should not kill, but now, you understand that to call a person a bad name is tantamount to killing his ego and so, you refuse to call anyone a bad name.... Are you allowed to grow with an understanding of Absolute Morality? I'm not Twilight, but I'd like to put my 2 cents worth in on this idea. This post of yours is a rehash of the idea that not having perfect knowledge of a subject means there can be no objectivity in our knowledge of that subject. This is a false assumption because it means there can be no objectivity where human beings are concerned. Of course personal growth is possible with Absolute Morality. Just because my perception of something changes doesn't mean the object of my perception has changed. For example, let's look at what we percieve to be a "solid" object. It looks solid and to have very little empty space in it until we look very deep within that object and then we find that even "solid" objects have more empty space in them than anything else. Did the object change just because I looked at it with enough magnification to see all the empty space? NO. Just the same with morality. It doesn't change just because my perception of what is, or is not, moral changes. Only my perception changes. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Quote: Of course personal growth is possible with Absolute Morality. Just because my perception of something changes doesn't mean the object of my perception has changed. Fair enough. But If my perception of "absolute morality" changes (lets say "matures") over time; does that mean that, since my previous views of "absolute morality" were wrong, that I was in sin? After all I did "miss the mark", cuz my views on morality were relatively wrong when compared to that yet-to-be learned "absolute morality". Twilight seems to claim that absolute morality is from the bible. What happens to the 60 - 70% of the people in the world who have never had the opportunity to learn of Christ or read/hear the scriptures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Originally Posted By: Neil D It's a straight forward question, Twilight...Let's use you as the example... You understand "Absolute Morality" and you live it...Does this morality allow you to grow? IOWs, if you believed that "thou shalt not kill" also, ONE DAY, extended to a varient of that, say "Thou shalt not call a person a bad name".... the result is that not only do you have an understanding that you should not kill, but now, you understand that to call a person a bad name is tantamount to killing his ego and so, you refuse to call anyone a bad name.... Are you allowed to grow with an understanding of Absolute Morality? I'm not Twilight, but I'd like to put my 2 cents worth in on this idea. This post of yours is a rehash of the idea that not having perfect knowledge of a subject means there can be no objectivity in our knowledge of that subject. This is a false assumption because it means there can be no objectivity where human beings are concerned. Of course personal growth is possible with Absolute Morality. Just because my perception of something changes doesn't mean the object of my perception has changed. For example, let's look at what we percieve to be a "solid" object. It looks solid and to have very little empty space in it until we look very deep within that object and then we find that even "solid" objects have more empty space in them than anything else. Did the object change just because I looked at it with enough magnification to see all the empty space? NO. Just the same with morality. It doesn't change just because my perception of what is, or is not, moral changes. Only my perception changes. Good analogy. The only thing I would qualify is that the Holy Spirit is convicting all of humanity of sin, all the time... How would you add that into your argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Quote: Of course personal growth is possible with Absolute Morality. Just because my perception of something changes doesn't mean the object of my perception has changed. Fair enough. But If my perception of "absolute morality" changes (lets say "matures") over time; does that mean that, since my previous views of "absolute morality" were wrong, that I was in sin? After all I did "miss the mark", cuz my views on morality were relatively wrong when compared to that yet-to-be learned "absolute morality". Twilight seems to claim that absolute morality is from the bible. What happens to the 60 - 70% of the people in the world who have never had the opportunity to learn of Christ or read/hear the scriptures? Actually, that standard is revealed in the Bible clearly. But the Holy Spirit also convicts people of that standard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Quote: I would qualify is that the Holy Spirit is convicting all of humanity of sin, Sorry, I would disagree. I believe the scriptural reference to your assertion is (John 16:8-10) Quote: 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. He is speaking to His discplies. He speaks of convicting the world (finding them guilty of) of sin because THEY don't believe in Him. We know that the "THEY" that are being referred to is not the disciples, since they are referred to as "YE" in the following verse. So who is the "THEY" referred to in verse 9? It is the world of unbelievers who are convicted (found guilty of) of sin. We believers (the "YE" in verse 10) are convicted (found guilty of) of righteousness. That sounds like a good thing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 This post of yours is a rehash of the idea that not having perfect knowledge of a subject means there can be no objectivity in our knowledge of that subject. This is a false assumption because it means there can be no objectivity where human beings are concerned. Of course personal growth is possible with Absolute Morality. Just because my perception of something changes doesn't mean the object of my perception has changed. For example, let's look at what we percieve to be a "solid" object. It looks solid and to have very little empty space in it until we look very deep within that object and then we find that even "solid" objects have more empty space in them than anything else. Did the object change just because I looked at it with enough magnification to see all the empty space? NO. Just the same with morality. It doesn't change just because my perception of what is, or is not, moral changes. Only my perception changes. well, here I think we are going to agree to disagree.... It isn't the absolute morality that changes...it's ME that changes...I am the dynamic..and my relationship to that absolute morality... You see, because I understood ABSOLUTE morality, the standard, at first, and then I understood that there is more to this standard than I understood before, then the size of the standard changes...and I also change as well.... that is not to say that I give up on the Absolute Morality, as it allows me to change. It is trustworthy to continue to follow it..because I grow and understand and it's Morality grows with me... So, morality is no longer Absolute....but it is worthy to follow, and it allows me to grow and I can watch it worthiness grow with me... Now, I know, for you rational intellectuals, that makes no sense...You will pooh-ha this to your delight...and that's ok...I trust my loving Savior, and not some loving set of rules...I am bowing out of this, as I have seen enough that Twilight just likes the attention that he is getting....but this is weariness....and not a good discussion...making mountains out of mole hills... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Neil D - I'll join you ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 It isn't the absolute morality that changes...it's ME that changes...I am the dynamic..and my relationship to that absolute morality... So, morality is no longer Absolute....but it is worthy to follow, and it allows me to grow and I can watch it worthiness grow with me... Now, I know, for you rational intellectuals, that makes no sense...You will pooh-ha this to your delight...and that's ok...I trust my loving Savior, and not some loving set of rules...I am bowing out of this, as I have seen enough that Twilight just likes the attention that he is getting....but this is weariness....and not a good discussion...making mountains out of mole hills... I think your continued ad hominem attacks are judgemental, arbitrary and unnecessary. If you want to be taken seriously in discussions, you need to deal with this habit of engaging in emotionally loaded arbitrary ad hominem attacks. But to address your main point. You are basically arguing: 1. Morality is absolute, but I can't understand it fully so it isn't absolute. 2. My perception of morality is not absolute. 3. Therefore morality is not absolute. You are equivocating on the meaning of morality, which is why your argument does not make any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Twilight, I just wanted to pop in here and say that I now fully understand what you are saying. And, for the most part, I agree. I didn't appreciate all the rhetoric regarding use of logic and approaches to debate; but that's a difference in styles, I suppose. I believe that morality is absolute, and that God is never changing. It is the circumstance and situation that changes and God's moral judgement does not change. I don't believe we can know in every instance what exactly His judgement is, but I believe we can come close to knowing and can grow from that knowledge so that the next time, we'll be even closer in our walk with God. I do apologize for disrupting the thread earlier, but appreciate your attempts at answering my questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Quote: Of course personal growth is possible with Absolute Morality. Just because my perception of something changes doesn't mean the object of my perception has changed. Fair enough. But If my perception of "absolute morality" changes (lets say "matures") over time; does that mean that, since my previous views of "absolute morality" were wrong, that I was in sin? After all I did "miss the mark", cuz my views on morality were relatively wrong when compared to that yet-to-be learned "absolute morality". Twilight seems to claim that absolute morality is from the bible. What happens to the 60 - 70% of the people in the world who have never had the opportunity to learn of Christ or read/hear the scriptures? Good question. I take the same position Ellen White takes on this. That position is that the Holy Spirit is working upon the hearts and minds of all men, not just those who have access to the Bible. God takes each of us where we are and starts to work with us from that point, regardless of what/where that starting point is. As I see it this is the only way God can deal justly with all men. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Originally Posted By: joeb This post of yours is a rehash of the idea that not having perfect knowledge of a subject means there can be no objectivity in our knowledge of that subject. This is a false assumption because it means there can be no objectivity where human beings are concerned. Of course personal growth is possible with Absolute Morality. Just because my perception of something changes doesn't mean the object of my perception has changed. For example, let's look at what we percieve to be a "solid" object. It looks solid and to have very little empty space in it until we look very deep within that object and then we find that even "solid" objects have more empty space in them than anything else. Did the object change just because I looked at it with enough magnification to see all the empty space? NO. Just the same with morality. It doesn't change just because my perception of what is, or is not, moral changes. Only my perception changes. well, here I think we are going to agree to disagree.... It isn't the absolute morality that changes...it's ME that changes...I am the dynamic..and my relationship to that absolute morality... You see, because I understood ABSOLUTE morality, the standard, at first, and then I understood that there is more to this standard than I understood before, then the size of the standard changes...and I also change as well.... that is not to say that I give up on the Absolute Morality, as it allows me to change. It is trustworthy to continue to follow it..because I grow and understand and it's Morality grows with me... So, morality is no longer Absolute....but it is worthy to follow, and it allows me to grow and I can watch it worthiness grow with me... Now, I know, for you rational intellectuals, that makes no sense...You will pooh-ha this to your delight...and that's ok...I trust my loving Savior, and not some loving set of rules...I am bowing out of this, as I have seen enough that Twilight just likes the attention that he is getting....but this is weariness....and not a good discussion...making mountains out of mole hills... So, basically you're saying that because you observe and learn more about a rock it changes. This is a mighty slippery logical slope. This concept isn't a molehill. It's the very reason our society is collapsing. Relative morality, i.e every man does what is right in his eyes, is a very destructive force in our society today. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 12, 2013 Members Share Posted January 12, 2013 Twilight, I just wanted to pop in here and say that I now fully understand what you are saying. And, for the most part, I agree. I didn't appreciate all the rhetoric regarding use of logic and approaches to debate; but that's a difference in styles, I suppose. I believe that morality is absolute, and that God is never changing. It is the circumstance and situation that changes and God's moral judgement does not change. I don't believe we can know in every instance what exactly His judgement is, but I believe we can come close to knowing and can grow from that knowledge so that the next time, we'll be even closer in our walk with God. I do apologize for disrupting the thread earlier, but appreciate your attempts at answering my questions. Excellent response Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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