The Trinity?

[John317]

John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [HO THEOS], and the Word was [THEOS]God. 2 He was in the beginning with [HO THEOS] God.

In the Greek language, if the definite article is missing, the general interpretation is not that thing, but qualitatively like that thing.

The main purpose of the definite article in Greek is identification. When the definite article is not used, it means that the noun is describing the quality or essence of the person. In the case of the last clause of John 1: 1, it means that the Word is just like the God in the second clause. The Word and God are two distinct Persons, but they are both "God," that is, both are deity. The Bible is clear about this in many verses.

So you have the NEB, "and what God was the Word was."

It is saying the same thing about Christ that you find in Heb 1: 3, the Son is the "exact representation" or "perfect image" of the Father's essence.

[Dr. Waite]

This is basically where Uriah Smith erred. He, Uriah, was attempting to understand the mystery of Christ. It is noteworthy that Ellen White never made this attempt. I see Uriah not as other men see him, as an aryan, but as one struggling to find a worthy description of this mystery. By venturing into this he was standing on Holy ground. I will follow Sister Whites example here, not Uriahs (a man I have great respect for).

I see Gibs making a similiar mistake, shall we then say, "Gibs is aryan"? I don't think that is the case (but maybe it would be correct, I don't know for sure). I see Gibs making the same fundamental mistake Uriah Smith made, venturing onto Holy ground trying to explain the mystery of the Father and the Son.

The prophet has revealed enough for me to settle the matter. They are two distinct beings, with "persons" that are the express image of each other. They have always been, always will be. "Time" is meaningless to them, as there is no beginning, no end. It is enough, for me, to conclude, the Father and the Son have always existed since eternity. I don't pretend to understand that mystery!

And although we may try to reason in regard to our Creator, how long He has had existence, where evil first entered into our world, and all these things, we may reason about them until we fall down faint and exhausted with the research when there is yet an infinity beyond. We cannot grasp it, so what man is there that dares to take that Bible and say this part is inspired and that part is not inspired? I would have both my arms taken off at my shoulders before I would ever make the statement or set my judgment upon the Word of God as to what is inspired and what is not inspired. {7BC 919.5}

[John317]

Jesus is God, but is so on an exceptionally different basis. The very existence of the Father was not dependent on the prerogative of another. Not so the Son. His very existence was dependent on the prerogative of the Father to have a Son.

Both God the Father and Christ are self-existent. In eternity, Christ did not derive His existence from the Father. Christ's life is "original, unborrowed, underived." (DA 530)

When Christ was born on earth, He became the Son of God in new sense. At that point, the Father became Christ's literal daddy. That was not the case before.

"Son of"= "of the order of." In heaven before He came here as a baby, Christ was the only Son of God in the sense that He was the pefect reflection or image of the Father's glorious character. He was also the Son of God in the sense that He Himself was God essentially and equal with the Father in the highest sense.

Before His birth as a baby, "the Son of" in refernce to Christ did not signify the way He came into exitence. It referred to who He was and what His status was. As John 1: 1 and other verses show, Christ was God. He was not God in any way inferior to God the Father. Col 2: 9 says that in Christ's body lives the whole fullness of the Deity. IOW, there is as much of the essence of Deity in Christ as there is in the Father.

[John317]

That manipulation is to understand the predominant biblical usage of HO THEOS as referring to the Father only perhaps in order to appreciate and recognize preeminence and a contrast between the Father and His only begotten.

The Bible also uses HO THEOS in reference to Christ, and it often uses THEOS without the definite article in reference to God the Father.

[John317]

John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [HO THEOS], and the Word was [THEOS]God. 2 He was in the beginning with [HO THEOS] God.

.... What are the odds that the definite article would just happen to be missing when referring to Christ and not missing the two times it refers to the Father?

What do you mean "the odds"? The reason it uses the definite article for the Father as "HO THEOS" is for the same reason that it uses "HO LOGOS" for Christ.

The definite article is used for the purpose of identity. In other words, the definite article is used with "THEOS" in order to show a distinction between the Word and God. Otherwise the reader could think that God and the Word were the same Person.

As it is, while the Word is Deity and equal with God the Father, the Word is not one and the same Person as the Father.

Some bad translations ignore this and render the last clause, "and God was the word." That is precisely what the apostle John is NOT saying.

[Gail]

Some bad translations ignore this and render the last clause, "and God was the word." That is precisely what the apostle John is NOT saying.

Or, "the word was a god."

[John317]

Quote:

James White, The Throne of Grace (sermon), March 5, 1870

Some men say that they will not believe anything till every objection is removed, and every point cleared up. But I believe wherever I see the weight of evidence. Just give me the weight of evidence and I am there. Judges, justices, and courts, have to decide questions upon the weight of evidence, and why not we? I dare not wait until every objection is answered, and every difficulty taken out of the way. It is a fearful thing to stand back mulishly until every possible chance to doubt is removed. Show me the weight of evidence, from the Bible, from experience, from the influence of the spirit of God, and I think I am always safest on that side. When I take a position like that, as it usually involves some self denial and cross-bearing, I believe I meet the approbation of my Lord. I may expect to meet the blessing of God, sufficient to see all things clearly.

I know of no better way to really go after a BIBLICAL pursuit of truth. Show me the WEIGHT of evidence.

I agree with James White. And if you study his beliefs closely, you will see that James White's beliefs regarding the Godhead were not static but were undergoing changes. It's significant that he died in 1881, before Ellen White wrote her clearest statements about the Godhead and about Christ's deity and the Holy Spirit.

I hope you will stay here and keep studying and discussing the weight of evidence.

The problem is not with the evidence but with misunderstanding the evidence.

See, for instance, posts 619907, 619913, 619914, 619916.

[Dr. Waite]

[Gordon1]

Are you positive that the Greek participle genomenos is from gennao?

John you're right - thanks for catching that - careless of me.

gennao derives from genomenos (through #1085 genos = kin)

The meaning remains the same.

Christ "being made so much better than the angels."

[John317]

...Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:3-4

My Bible says that the Son of God was "made" so much better than the angels and as a result " by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they".

Genomenos, translated by the KJV as "made," is actually from the verb ginomai (Strong's #1096), and is usually translated in Hebrews 1: 4 as "became."

Gennao is Strong's #1080, meaning "to beget, generate, to be born, be produced, to give birth to."

Please notice that in Hebrews 1: 4, genomenos is aorist middle deponent nominative.

What significance is this?

A deponent verb is one which is Middle and Passive in form, but Active in meaning, or function. (See The Essentials of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, page 50; The Elements of New Testament Greek, J.W. Wenham, page 93; A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, page 163.)

Therefore in Hebrews 1: 4, it cannot refer to Christ's being "begotten" or "made" in the sense of being brought into existence. If that were the case, the Greek word would be gennao, not ginomai, and it would be passive, not middle deponent.

Notice that in Heb 1: 7 when it speaks of the angels having been made, it uses the Greek word, poieo, "to make, form, construct," the verb from which we derive the word, "poem."

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

...Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:3-4

My Bible says that the Son of God was "made" so much better than the angels and as a result " by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they".

Genomenos, translated by the KJV as "made," is actually from the verb ginomai (Strong's #1096), and is usually translated in Hebrews 1: 4 as "became."

Gennao is Strong's #1080, meaning "to beget, generate, to be born, be produced, to give birth to."

Please notice that in Hebrews 1: 4, genomenos is aorist middle deponent nominative.

What significance is this?

A deponent verb is one which is Middle and Passive in form, but Active in meaning, or function. (See The Essentials of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, page 50; The Elements of New Testament Greek, J.W. Wenham, page 93; A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, page 163.)

Therefore in Hebrews 1: 4, it cannot refer to Christ's being "begotten" or "made" in the sense of being brought into existence. If that were the case, the Greek word would be gennao, not ginomai, and it would be passive, not middle deponent.

Notice that in Heb 1: 7 when it speaks of the angels having been made, it uses the Greek word, poieo, "to make, form, construct," the verb from which we derive the word, "poem."

If it is "Active in meaning, or function", do you believe like the Roman Catholics that there is and "eternal generation" of the Son of God?

[Gordon1]

Micah 5: 2 says nothing about Christ's being "begotten"-- or coming into existence-- in the days of eternity.

On the contrary, it clearly speaks of him "whose goings forth4163 have been from of old6924, from everlasting5769."

#4163 - issue

#6924 - the days of eternity (margin)

This position agrees entirely with Ellen White in Patriarchs & Prophets page 34:

She applies Micah 5:2 to God's "associate - a co-worker...Christ..the only begotten of God..the only being that

could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God...His 'goings forth have been from old, from everlasting."

She immediately follows with Proverbs 8:22-30 as a declaration from the "Son of God .. Himself".

Her words echo Scripture as she clearly lays the foundation for the five volume Conflict Series.

No smoke & mirrors, no vacillating theology, no "mystery we can't understand."

[John317]

gennao derives from genomenos (through #1085 genos = kin)

The meaning remains the same.

Christ "being made so much better than the angels."

Gennao (Strong's #1080) means to "beget, generate, give birth."

Genos (Strong's #1085), on the other hand, means "kind, family, race, sort, species, progeny."

The word "begotten" is a translation of the word "monogenes" (Strong's 3439) which is derived from "monos" and "genos."

"Monos" (Strong's #3441) means "only," "sole," "lone," "solitary." "Genos," as said already, means "kind, sort."

Therefore, "monogenes" with respect to Christ is correcly translated "one of a kind," "only," "unique." It is also translated in the NT as "only born" or "begotten."

Christ is God's one and only Son; there is no other like Him in all the universe.

Some have made the mistake of believing that "monogenes" is derived from gennao, whereas it is actually derived from genos.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Micah 5: 2 says nothing about Christ's being "begotten"-- or coming into existence-- in the days of eternity.

On the contrary, it clearly speaks of him "whose goings forth4163 have been from of old6924, from everlasting5769."

#4163 - issue

#6924 - the days of eternity (margin)

Could you please show evidence that the expression "goings forth" refer the beginning of Christ's existence?

The Bible uses precisely this same language to describe the Father.

When used of the immortal God, "everlasting" means without beginning.

Thus,

Psalm 93:2

Your throne is established from of old;

you are from everlasting.

This is saying that God has no beginning. He has existed for all eternity.

[John317]

This position agrees entirely with Ellen White in Patriarchs & Prophets page 34:

She applies Micah 5:2 to God's "associate - a co-worker...Christ..the only begotten of God..the only being that

could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God...His 'goings forth have been from old, from everlasting."

She immediately follows with Proverbs 8:22-30 as a declaration from the "Son of God .. Himself".

Her words echo Scripture as she clearly lays the foundation for the five volume Conflict Series.

No smoke & mirrors, no vacillating theology, no "mystery we can't understand."

Does Ellen White ever use "goings forth" ["origin" RSV] to refer to the beginning of Christ's existence?

Nowhere does Prov. 8 use language that describes Christ coming into existence. The language is referring to Christ as the One who is "brought forth" to do His work as Savior of the world.

Here are some crystal clear statements by Ellen White with no vacillating on the topic:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. CH 222

The above clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit felt pity for Adam and Eve and helped plan mankind's redemption. He obviously entered into the counsels and purposes of God.

Notice also that the eternal Godhead is composed of Three-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Do you beleive this?

She also says elsewhere that the Holy Spirit is one of "three holiest beings in heaven"--

Quote:

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

[John317]

Ellen G. White wrote that Christ "had ever-- i.e.,always-- stood at the right hand of the Father." PP 38.

She makes it plain that the "eternal Godhead" consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (See CH 222.)

Quote:

The eternal Godhead--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent, . . . confederating the heavenly powers with the human that man may become, through heavenly efficiency, partakers of the divine nature and workers together with Christ. {UL 148.4}

Does either the Bible or Ellen White suggest that "the eternal Godhead" has ever had a member added to it or substracted from it? In other words, was there ever a point when the "eternal Godhead" was comprised of one or two?

If the eternal Godhead has ever consisted of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, wouldn't you agree that it has always been so comprised?

[John317]

If it is "Active in meaning, or function", do you believe like the Roman Catholics that there is and "eternal generation" of the Son of God?

Absolutely not, and such a meaning is neither required nor implied in the language.

That was one aspect of the Trinity doctrine that God influenced our Pioneers to reject. That "eternal generation" concept is not based on Scripture. Much in the Catholic theology is based on Greek philosophy. SDAs base our theology on the Bible and SOP, not on church tradition or pagan philosophy.

[ClubV12]

I thought these quotes from the Desire of Ages were especially interesting.

"..the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race." DA, pg 451

"The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied. Satan is vanquished...

The Father's arms encircle His Son, and the word is given, "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hebrews 1:6.

DA pg 451

Clasping hands, the Father hugging His Son. That is so beautiful, how descriptive, how tender, what a profound pact they made to save mankind! Amazing sacrafice. I love the way you tie in the Holy Spirit to this "counsel of heaven" John317!

[Gerr]

Gerry, to me it means our Father made to us a gift of Himself in Jesus Christ in whom He came. The fullness of the Father was in Him, ALL power was and yet is His.

You might say He the Father extended more than even His right Arm, yes His Full Power. The Father put it all in His hands!

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Then when His fullness is returned,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Are you saying that the Father was merely using the body of the physical Jesus to manifest Himself? So then, if the Father Himself was the person in Jesus, who was the Father in Jesus talking to after His baptism and at the mount of transfiguration?

[Dr. Waite]

Christ is God's "only-begotten Son". However, God has created sons and adopted sons also.

Quote:

There is but one way of escape for the sinner. There is but one agency whereby he may be cleansed from sin. He must accept the propitiation that has been made by the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world. The shed blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}[/quote']

[Gordon1]

John your penchant for argument, often expressed, does not lend itself to open inquiry, but doubt. If you ignore the plainest EGW statements in their setting, you'll not believe a plain student over a prophet. I'm not a debater, I know many relish this aspect of forums, but you can investigate what she meant in Patriarchs and Prophets. Or you can avoid it.

As you know, this is not an obscure volume or later church compilation like Evangelism where some have attempted to change her words with inserted titles and emphases. Quite regrettable & dishonest, but that's life in the big city. Patriarchs & Prophets lays out her theology & foundation for the Conflict Series (over 3500 pages) which culminates in The Great Controversy. As some have acknowledged, the Whites would not be able to join the SDA Church today because of the doctrinal change on this matter.(Officially in 1980)

The Bible has plenty of confirmation for this but Lexicons and commentaries only cloud the issue.

EGW wrote that the Ministry of Healing "contains the wisdom of the Great Physician." 9T 71. Pages 409-458 contain a section of four chapters outlining A True Knowledge of God. Adventists should consult this before lesser sources, if the Bible does not speak to them plainly.

[John317]

Questions for ya:

1. Why in P&P does Ellen White state that God had one with whom to counsel?

Are you familiar with the following:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. Here is love--the contemplation of which should fill the soul with inexpressible gratitude! Oh, what love, what matchless love! {CH 222}

Quote:

The eternal Godhead--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent, . . . confederating the heavenly powers with the human that man may become, through heavenly efficiency, partakers of the divine nature and workers together with Christ. {UL 148.4}

Quote:

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . .

Notice several points:

1) The Holy Spirit obviously entered into the counsels of God.

2) The "eternal Godhead" is comprised of "three holiest beings in heaven": the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

3) Do you really believe that Ellen White is teaching that the "fullness of the Godhead," the "Third Person of the Godhead," could not enter into the counsels of God-- especially since she says plainly in CH 222 that the Holy Spirit helped to plan the redemption of the human family?!!

[Dr. Waite]

[John317]

If you ignore the plainest EGW statements in their setting, you'll not believe a plain student over a prophet.

Let me know where you feel I've done this and we can talk about it.

[John317]

She also says elsewhere that the Holy Spirit is one of "three holiest beings in heaven"--

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

This quote comes from a stenographer's report when EGW spoke in a church in Oakland, California. There is NO evidence she reviewed or approved the Stenographer's report.

Ellen White regularly had her secreteries and professional stenogrphers record her sermons, because they were often published in the Review and Herald and also used in her books.

And yes, she did read them and approve of them with her signature or her initial. You will find them in the E. G. White Estate.