The Trinity?

[Gordon1]

'God the Father' is a Biblical term.

'God the Son' & 'God the Holy Spirit' are not terms found in the Bible.(KJV)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: LynnDel

What do you mean about Jesus being a "literal son?"

One who was brought forth in the days of eternity, as described in Proverbs 8:22-30 and Micah 5:2.

And as spoken on the second page of Patriarchs & Prophets.

"And the Son of God declares concerning Himself:" Pr. 8:22-30 quoted.

Here is Mic 5:2

ESV | ‎Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

Where does it say Jesus was created?

And Prov 8 is talking about wisdom. John 1 & Col 1 are very clear in stating that "ALL thinngs" were created by Christ.

[Gordon1]

Where does it say Jesus was created?

It never says created.

It says brought forth.

Proverbs 8:24 - When there were no depths, I was brought forth.#2342

[Hebrew #2342] - bear, calve, travailed, travail (with child).

[Gordon1]

And Prov 8 is talking about wisdom.

Yes, this speaks of "Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1 Corinthians 1:24

"..the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom,

which God ordained before the world unto our glory." 1 Corinthians 2:7

[Gordon1]

There are three Hebrew words translated as 'wisdom' in Proverbs 8.

[Gibs]

The Father "possessed" Him, Jesus of Himself, He was not a born being or a created one like the Angels and Satan, but out of the Father Himself who is Spirit. Possessed means an extension, to procure, acquire.

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

He too then was equal Deity, His Name also YHWH, Yahweh. Isaiah tells us He was "HIS", the Fathers Redeemer.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and "his" redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

In His foreknowledge The Father knew He would need a Redeemer, one equal to Himself to carry out the one and only way it could be done.

He gave "His" Redeemer to us and He Jesus is then also our Redeemer. In so doing, He The Father gave of Himself!

It would take several fairly long talks to give a full explanation of this as far as man can Comprehend, the writings of Enoch reveal more on this too.

He, Jesus was Truly God, The Father, with us, Emmanuel.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

I have had a few people tell me recently that to believe in the Trinity is to believe in the anti-Christ because it comes from the Catholics. So, what about this and why was it that even Ellen White did not believe in the Trinity in her very early years?

Ellen White wrote only what God showed her, and God did not reveal the Trinity to her until the late 1880s and 1890s. She didn't write her own opinions or the opinions of other SDAs. We don't know what her private opinions about the Trinity were during her early years because she didn't talk about them. The main point here is that Ellen White never found it necessary to go back to her earliest writings and change them in order to make them conform to her later teachings. Her husband, James White, condemned the Trinity doctrine as a whole, but it is significant that Ellen White never condemned the Trinity per se. What she condemned were the false views that some people held regarding the Trinity, such as the beliefs of John H. Kellogg.

Here are a few significant statements by Ellen White about the Godhead:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. CH 222

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do,

I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be "the express image of His person." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have

615

everlasting life." Here is shown the personality of the Father. {Ev 614.3}

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

The Pre-existent, Self-existent Son of God.--Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3}

[John317]

I have to wonder why it is that some have deemed it necessary to teach me about the Trinity. I already believe in the Trinity and don't need lessons about it. All I asked was why some people don't believe it it.

The reason is that some SDAs are trying to go back to the beliefs of the early SDA pioneers who did not believe in the Trinity. But what they evidently don't take into account is that our early Pioneers made mistakes, and their beliefs regarding the Trinity were mistaken. They did not even agree among themselves regarding the Godhead/Trinity. They were right to reject the Catholic and Methodist views of the Trinity, but it is wrong to base our doctrines today on the views of the Pionners. They wouldn't want us to base our doctrines on the Pioneers but on the Bible. Basing our doctines on the Pioneers is the same as basing them on church tradition. Ellen White clearly did not believe what most of the Pioneers said about the Trinity. See the EGW quotes in the post just before this one. Also, most SDAs today don't realize that there were SDA pastors in the 1800s who did believe in the Trinity, and they weren't told by the GC to change their beliefs. Elder James White wrote an article in the R&H in which he said that the Trinity doctrine was not to be a test of Christian character or of church fellowship. In 1913, two years before Ellen White's death, the editor of the R&H wrote an article in which he stated that "the SDA Church believes in the Trinity." Soon afterwards, Ellen White appointed this same editor to be one of the members of the Ellen White Estate, something she wouldn't have done if she thought he was leading the church astray.

[John317]

'God the Father' is a Biblical term.

'God the Son' & 'God the Holy Spirit' are not terms found in the Bible.(KJV)

But the Bible does call "the Son" "God" and it also does call the "Holy Spirit" "God." Ergo= the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Three divine Persons are God-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are referred to in Matt. 28: 19 as having one name, and that name is "God," or YWHW.The Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As Ellen White said:

Quote:

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63.

Also:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. CH 222

Quote:

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. 7 MR 267

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Where does it say Jesus was created?

It never says created.

It says brought forth.

Proverbs 8:24 - When there were no depths, I was brought forth.#2342

[Hebrew #2342] - bear, calve, travailed, travail (with child).

Did God the Father give birth in heaven to a child named Christ?

Prov 8: 24 is talking about Wisdom, and it doesn't mean that God "brought forth" a child named Wisdom or Christ.

You'll notice that Wisdom in Proverbs is a woman. Christ is not a woman. If you take Prov 8: 24 literally, it would mean that there was a time when God did not have wisdom.

We need to do a word study of Strong's #2342. See The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, pages 296 & 297. Setting up Christ as the Savior of the world did cost the Godhead a great deal of pain. It was not an easy decision for God to make.

Can you show that "possessed" (Prov 8: 22); "set up" (v 23); and "brought forth" are all referring to the beginning of Christ's existence in heaven?

I believe those expressions all have to do with Christ's being appointed to be the Savior of the world.

As long as you are using Ellen White as an authority, it would be good to notice that she says Christ is "self-existent." Only God is self-existent. It means that Christ did not come into existence through anyone outside Himself. The Father is also "self-existent."

The Godhead is eternal. That is, the Godhead has no beginning. And Ellen White clearly teaches that Christ is a part of the Godhead. CH 222.

[Gibs]

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

John 8:42

Christ "proceeded forth and came from God" (1st birth in days of eternity - Micah 5:2),

neither "came I of myself, but He sent me." (2nd birth to Mary when sent by the Father).

[Gibs]

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

So we do see they are literally one, The Father was in Him was His Divine Nature.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Gibs,

With all due respect, I did read your thesis. Quite well. I simply find your exegesis incomplete and lacking.

You quote Deut 6:4 as an example. While in English, it appears to support your premise, in the Hebrew, it does not. You quote the KJV version; is adds the word Lord at the end, where in other English versions and the Hebrew, it is not there. I do realize other versions (like the RSV and ASV) also include the extra Lord, but I keep in mind it is a supplied word.

The NASB and the New KJ versions have it rendered as this:

NASB - Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

New KJ - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

The Hebrew Transliteration: Listen, Israel! YHWH Elohim YHWH one!

It can also be correctly translated "Listen, Israel! YHWH Elohim YWHW same!

While I make no claim to be a scholar in the ancient languages, there are certain points to language and grammar all have in common, including imperatives, proper names, noun adjectives, and plurality. The principles are all that is needed to transliterate this correctly.

All of those are present here, Gibs. "Listen, Israel!" is in the imperative. The people are being commanded to give special attention to these words.

YHWH - the proper name for our God as He interacts with humanity. In the Old Testament, I have not seen this name used outside of this context at all. It is first seen in Genesis 2, where God is seen creating man. Who does the New Testament credit the creation of man to? Not the Father, but the aspect of Deity who became Incarnate - Jesus.

Elohim - the word used to describe God in general. It is extremely important, as this word is never singular in the Old Testament. It is used as the noun for "God" and as an noun adjective to describe God. God is always depicted as being a plural Being. This is plainly seen in Genesis 1, where God (Elohim) says in His intention to create man, "Let US make man in OUR image". The plurality is upheld. Both the New Testament and the Spirit of Prophecy declare the creation of man to be a joint experience between the One we address as Father, and the One we address as Jesus.

one/same - this word is used to denote both singularity and equality, particularly when used as an adjective, as it is here. In this context, it is describing Elohim and YHWH to be one and the same.

The conclusion: Either YHWH is the aspect of the plural God designated the role of Creator/Redeemer of man, or YWHW is plural, being equated to the plural Elohim. Either way, the language points me to a plural Godhead, which I see sustained in the Old Testament, and not just maintained, but expanded to three separate Agents in the New Testament - a Trinity, a plural 3 that are one and the same - a "Father" role, a "Son" role, and a "Comforter/Teacher" role (what is given the name "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost").

Christ Jesus affirmed this plurality/singular nature of God when He was asked what the greatest commandment was (Mark 12:28-33), and applied it to Himself in His Good Shepherd teaching in John 10:27-30. Even 1400 years after Moses wrote Deuteronomy, the Jews knew exactly what Christ was saying, for the picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy - saying He and the Father were one and the same.

Jesus further emphasizes this in John 14, in answer to Philip's question. Christ responds with the exact same one and the same principle seen in Deut. 6:4.

There is more, but time fails me for this post. Suffice to say, rather than strengthen your argument, Deuteronomy 6:4 actually takes it apart.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

What all of them are saying is that the Elohiym is one YHWH. The Elohiym of course is YHWH King of Israel and YHWH of Hosts.

They are one, to worship one is to worship the other. Our Father in Heaven is not Jealous if we worship Yahweh of Hosts nor is Yahweh of Hosts, Jesus, jealous if we worship Yahweh King of Israel.

There just is no basis for Trinity in scripture. If EGW was a Trinitarian she would never have made the following statement.

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Yahweh the Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Christ was the one and only true God with us. Emmanuel!

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

I have had a few people tell me recently that to believe in the Trinity is to believe in the anti-Christ because it comes from the Catholics. So, what about this and why was it that even Ellen White did not believe in the Trinity in her very early years?

Ellen White was initially a Methodist, a denomination that subscribed to the Trinity...

...When Ellen and her family this previous belief was authorized.

...Because William Miller, the founder of the Millerite movement was a Baptist.

...And Baptists also accepted the Doctrine of the Trinity.

William Miller, after the third time his date setting didn't produce the return of Christ...

...Gave up on his teachings and renounced all date settings as error & returned to his church.

...Miller also urged everyone else to return to their former churches.

This mass exodus left only a core group that was held together by their strong dislike of the Trinity...

...Soon this group started to squabble over other teachings.

...Despite their unified hatred of the Trinity Doctrine.

The first thing that the group that Ellen White associated herself with did....

...Was to lay down dogmatic statements about; "The Personality of God".

...Then lambast the Methodists and other Christian groups for their rejection.

...Of a Three-in-One God ( Trinity ).

To understand and decrypt the Seventh-day Adventist Trinity...

...One must first understand what the Personality of God Doctrine was to SDA's.

...What it specifically meant to them.

To Ellen White ( and all the other Arians ) God was a "Unity"...

...NOT a "Compound Being".

http://vimeo.com/18518548

[phkrause]

Here's a link to the Nook of the Complete Jewish Bible. Its only a sample but has some interesting reading about some of the names etc. If you do have the Nook you can download this to it, I'm assuming it will cost a few bucks.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/sample/read/9789653590151

[Gibs]

Who was first, the Father or Christ? The right answer and only answer is of course the Father was first as He only extended Himself into His Redeemer of which He knew He would need and who is also our Redeemer.

Then since Christ was the same substance as the Father, He rightly could say,

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

He too is the eternal preexistant one because He and The Father are truly one. Yes one and the same substance and to then do the part of Redeemer. He could not stated this if He were another separate God.

Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit are not another God, but both are the one and only TRUE GOD there is and will ever be.

The day is approaching that the Father again will be all in all again before extending Himself to be our Redeemer. Read and comprehend, These verses cantain a profound understanding!

Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

( His Father is He that is excepted! )

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So You see now Christ returns to the Father His Deity vested in Him that He may be all in all again. Do you not see how profound those verses are and the cinch to the fact of no Trinity!

You also need to realize that no more, for ever and ever will a Redeemer be needed again, the sin problem is now finished for all eternity!

1Jo 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Gibs,

Quote:

What all of them are saying is that the Elohiym is one YHWH. The Elohiym of course is YHWH King of Israel and YHWH of Hosts.

They are one, to worship one is to worship the other. Our Father in Heaven is not Jealous if we worship Yahweh of Hosts nor is Yahweh of Hosts, Jesus, jealous if we worship Yahweh King of Israel.

Then you have just made my case that God is plural, not a single. Thank you.

Quote:

There just is no basis for Trinity in scripture. If EGW was a Trinitarian she would never have made the following statement.

Yet you have just declared one to be plural. A case can be made for a Trinity. Despite your many quotes, you have destroyed your own thesis, and your argument just cannot stand.

Your response is precisely why I stated your exegesis is incomplete and lacking. You cannot declare many to be one without saying at the same time one are many. The plural God being One and the One God being plural is the specific mystery of Deity depicted in Scripture.

This mystery is also at the very root of the Great Controversy, as the angel who became Satan was jealous for God's throne precisely because he would not consider Christ as God, equal to and the same as the Father, whom Satan readily admitted was God.

Why not just plainly admit you are irrationally opposing what you perceive to be a Roman Catholic teaching because it is taught by...Roman Catholics?

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Ted you are not seeing it, The father and Christ are one and the same, He sent forth of Himself the Redeemer, "His redeemer of Himself". 1 Cor. 15:24-28 proves that when it is all over, the Father is all in all again, He no longer needs to have of Himself a Redeemer, it is over.

1 Cor. 15:24-28 cinchs it, there is not any doubt about it, it is absolutely profound.

Are you worried Christ will not exist then, well you need not be as He is the Prince and next to the Father without doubt, but when it's all over He will not be the equal Deity He was when vested in Him to be the Redeemer.

At Bethehem the union of His the Fathers Deity and fallen man was mysteriously blended, before that He was Yahweh of Hosts in Heaven and all of Heavens commander.

When this is all completed He, Jesus wil be the commander of His Subjects whom He bought and shed His Blood for. He will be the Great King of all the Redeemed here on this earth.

There is and never was a basis for the Trinity doctrine, it is false and keeps the understanding of much from being seen. Quit listening to men and hear Him His Word and His Spirit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted you are not seeing it, The father and Christ are one and the same, He sent forth of Himself the Redeemer, "His redeemer of Himself". 1 Cor. 15:24-28 proves that when it is all over, the Father is all in all again, He no longer needs to have of Himself a Redeemer, it is over.

1 Cor. 15:24-28 cinchs it, there is not any doubt about it, it is absolutely profound.

Are you worried Christ will not exist then, well you need not be as He is the Prince and next to the Father without doubt, but when it's all over He will not be the equal Deity He was when vested in Him to be the Redeemer.

At Bethehem the union of His the Fathers Deity and fallen man was mysteriously blended, before that He was Yahweh of Hosts in Heaven and all of Heavens commander.

When this is all completed He, Jesus wil be the commander of His Subjects whom He bought and shed His Blood for. He will be the Great King of all the Redeemed here on this earth.

There is and never was a basis for the Trinity doctrine, it is false and keeps the understanding of much from being seen. Quit listening to men and hear Him His Word and His Spirit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, with all due respect, I do *see it*. I have duly noted your points. It is you who haven’t answered mine own points.

You task me to “quit listening to men, and hear Him, His Word, and His Spirit” – again affirming what many are convinced of being the very thing you say does not exist – a Trinity. Is this because you are contrary to what much a Christendom has set forth as truth, that you deem yourself as listening to the Spirit? Is it not rather you confusing an issue upon which the Great Controversy originally started – the equality of the person of Christ being fully God, equal to the Father in every way?

I do listen to Him and His Word and His Spirit, Gibs. I come convinced from His Word of what you say does not exist. I have put forth many statements and passages from Christ Himself, as well as the Old Testament affirmation of Deity’s plurality. I find in them evidence which discredits your thesis and affirms my conviction.

Earlier in the thread, you declared EGW did not believe in the Trinity. Yet, I can go to the first chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets, and within that chapter find plenty of evidence which refutes your claim, as she writes of Christ and the rise of sin in Lucifer in such a fashion, that He must have the distinct qualities of a unique and distinct being apart from the Father for the passage to make coherent sense.

If Christ were a mere projection of the Father, then Lucifer/Satan had no object for his jealousy/envy to center upon. But the Christ could commune together with His Father where Lucifer could not go – the province of Deity. Then the Father declared to the angels Christ was to be afforded exaltation, worship, and obedience, just as they do the Father. These are actions that require at least two Beings. These would be a meaningless if Christ were not His own unique Person, but would be the focal point of Satan’s fury if Christ were.

You seem to demonstrate an unfamiliarity with her works which, again, works against your stated thesis.

You now quote 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 as convincing evidence of your viewpoint. Well, the context of that passage is the resurrection of the dead, whereby Christ has been declared to have participated in bodily – as in His own person, and not a mere projection of the Father.

I find it fascinating that verse 27 contains a direct reference to Psalms 8:6. That verse, with its context, says this:

Psalm 8:4-6

4 “what is man, that You take thought of him, and the son of man, that You care for him?

5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God, and You crown him with glory and majesty!

6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet.”

Yet this same context is quoted in Hebrews 1 and 2 to affirm the dual uniqueness of Christ – fully Deity and fully man, who is not ashamed to call me his brother (Hebrews 2:11, 17). This point would make no sense if Christ was not His own Being.

1 Corinthians 15:28 seems to be your exclamation point, yet it references Hebrews 10:10-13:

10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;

12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

Again, the context clearly references an action which can only be done by two unique Beings – sitting beside each other on the Throne.

Am I worried about Christ “not existing”? Goodness, no. Jude 24 affirms Christ is able to keep me from stumbling (now), then present me before the Throne (the Father sits) with great joy. That tells me Christ exists both now – and in the future. The context again provides yet another action which takes two Beings to do: present someone with great joy to another sitting upon the throne.

Further, Revelation 20:4-6 tells me that, in participating in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over me, and I will live as a priest of God and of Christ, reigning with Christ for 1000 years. Christ will be as existing then as He is now.

Again, the prophetic language written under Divine instruction/inspiration says “priests of God and of Christ”. The separation of persons is clearly seen in both the English and in the original Greek.

My final point is made on the very nature of agape love – the selfless, serving love cannot exist in a singularity. It takes at least two to demonstrate complimentary selflessness in love, as seen in a Father willing to serve in His Son, to do all those things His Son could not do Himself, while the Son is seen submitting all His will to the Father’s direction, instruction, and sovereignty.

Again, what the Bible teaches as the plurality of Deity, is very difficult to get our finite minds wrapped around, yet it is plainly there. This plurality does allow one to make the case for a Trinity – a Triune God (three is one/one is three) – in the New Testament. Christ’s own statements of pre-existence with the Father prior to His incarnation lead me to conclude He is either lying in saying He is equal with the Father (as His own unique Being), or else telling the truth to His being a unique Being pre-existing with the Father (not as the Father) in the Old Testament.

I give you ample verses from the Word which teach me a different thesis than that which you present...I think you need to re-assess what is a teaching from the Word versus what is a teaching from man.

Blessings,

[Gail]

Of interest is Ty Gibson's talk on how the concept of God's love would not even be possible without THREE.

[Gibs]

He revealed Himself to us through His Redeemer and by His Spirit which is Christ in you, which was the Father in Him, don't look like a mystery to me. Remember God is Spirit and as Spirit He can be in all and there is no place He isn't present there.

Like 1 Jo 5:7 states, - 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And Jesus says it too, - - Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Oh sure Trinitarians can't believe that! But He tells Philip,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

In other words, your looking at Him, He dwells in me.

It comes round and round but not fathomed.

Is it impossible for our Father who is Spirit for Him to extend Himself into our and His Redeemer? Can you limit the Omnipotent One?

There would be immediate war if another God came up,

Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

He even says His name is Jealous!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

No Ted the Elohiym does not make a case for the trinity! It is telling us only that Yahweh of Hosts and Yahweh King of Israel are one and the same. One isn't three.

The scripture always states the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are one but never that the one is three. Simply because the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are one but they are not thee diferent Gods.

Scripture stoutly denies that, in more than this one verse,

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Jesus then plainly tells you that God is a spirit!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

EGW says they are one substance!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

So basically no-one knows, and everyone has bible verses to back up their argument.

Here is the real question - does it really matter?