Woody Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Good observation EC. You hit the nail on the head . Most of what we banter around here on Club A - really doesn't matter. But Christianity is so simple . So simple that a young child could understand. That - it doesn't leave much for the intellectuals and talking heads to talk about. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Pagan beliefs are much the same Woody. Its all pretty simple IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 They are for sure of ONE substance as it is very clear the Holy Spirit is what God is. How many is ONE? Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. So now we see the Father and Jesus are one substance. You know I have no doubt that Jesus knew what He was telling us! Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? It is so simple that 5'th grade level can see that. The Father is in Him, they are one and the same substance! Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Paul was telling this to those of whom he knew to have Christ in them. You see "Christ in you" is the Father in you, one Spirit one God and it is by Spirit as that is what He is. The Father not only gave of Himself in our Redeemer, but He also gave to us His Son, born of Mary, the Prince of the Father and yet one of us. Don't you see now that the Father knew us and our frailties as well as the Son. 1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Quote: So basically no-one knows, and everyone has bible verses to back up their argument. Here is the real question - does it really matter? Quote: Good observation EC. You hit the nail on the head .Most of what we banter around here on Club A - really doesn't matter. Is how we view the triune God/trinity really a salvational matter? When I pray, sometimes I pray to each member of the Godhead seperately; sometimes together. Being a former JW, it took me a while to accept the HS as a seperate divine entity (or member of the trinity). To be honest, I don't have an opinion one way or the other. Did Jesus have a beginning? Maybe but it was before creation. Maybe not. I still believe He is God. Is the Holy Spirit simply the active power of God pereating the universe, or a seperate divine Being? I don't know. It is still divine. Do I believe the members of the Godhead are three aspects of the same being or 3 seperate members of the same close-knit family? Yes. No matter which it is He/they are still God. Is it a salvational issue which of these view is correct? IMO, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzarkWoman Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Quote: So basically no-one knows, and everyone has bible verses to back up their argument. Here is the real question - does it really matter? Quote: Good observation EC. You hit the nail on the head .Most of what we banter around here on Club A - really doesn't matter. Is how we view the triune God/trinity really a salvational matter? When I pray, sometimes I pray to each member of the Godhead seperately; sometimes together. Being a former JW, it took me a while to accept the HS as a seperate divine entity (or member of the trinity). To be honest, I don't have an opinion one way or the other. Did Jesus have a beginning? Maybe but it was before creation. Maybe not. I still believe He is God. Is the Holy Spirit simply the active power of God pereating the universe, or a seperate divine Being? I don't know. It is still divine. Do I believe the members of the Godhead are three aspects of the same being or 3 seperate members of the same close-knit family? Yes. No matter which it is He/they are still God. Is it a salvational issue which of these view is correct? IMO, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Gibs, You're not convincing me...or much anyone here, judging from the posts. You don't address the valid questions and points people raise, brushing aside valid Scriptural references and contexts to instead present your own perspective...even when I demonstrate how your own references could make a case for the opposing perspective. Thanks for the input, though. I will for now side with the others here on this point - is what you are proposing so important our salvation hinges upon it? Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Gerhard, and all here is a verse that lays in the dust that Jesus is another God. Yes He, Jesus and The Father are truly ONE substance! They are not two different God's formed from ONE substance, but they are the very same substance. Again the Father was and is yet in Christ! Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. The only God that could be in Christ is, YHWH, Yahweh King of Israel. Our Father who art in Heaven. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Quote: But "God ...", according to the Scriptures, "... is one" - one in substance and or essence I respectfully disagree. Jesus is flesh and bone - glorified and incorruptible; but flesh and bone nonetheless. As He is we shall be. He Himself says so: Quote: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.(Luke 24:39) God the Father is spirit; and the Holy Spirit is Spirit. Yes; all 3 are God; but no they are not one is substance and essence. Sidebar - Notice Jesus didn't say He was flesh and blood. What can we deduce from that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Gerhard states, "Anyhow, it is simply not written anywhere, "Jesus and The Father are truly ONE substance!" That is Gibs, saying. Ironic, that the saying Jesus is of the same substance as the Father, comes from the TRINITARIAN Confession of God. Hey Gibs?" How do you read, This, "Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one." 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 JoeMoe, Jesus is one of us born of Mary the seed of David, yes Flesh and Blood, which He shed and also the Father was in Him reconciling the world unto Himself. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. JM, please read my thesis, the first post on this thread, your questions you will find are answered there. Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Gibs, How do you explain this? Quote: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.(Luke 24:39) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Quote: JM, please read my thesis, the first post on this thread, your questions you will find are answered there. Gibs, 1. Your thesis is not the first post on this thread; the first post is by OW. 2. My post did NOT say Jesus was FLESH and BLOOD; it said he was FLESH and BONE - that's what the bible says about His glorified body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 JoeMoe, He was filled with the spirit of the father when He was with us in the flesh, but now He is with us by Spirit, the Comforter. By the way His Spirit and the Fathers are the same, as there is ONE Holy Spirit. Since God is Spirit and the Father dwelt in Him by Spirit. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Quote: JoeMoe, He was filled with the spirit of the father when He was with us in the flesh, but now He is with us by Spirit, the Comforter. By the way His Spirit and the Fathers are the same, as there is ONE Holy Spirit. Since God is Spirit and the Father dwelt in Him by Spirit. So are you saying Jesus is a spirit? That goes against scripture. If the Holy Spirit and the Father are the same, why did they appear seperately at Jesus' baptism? You're confusing me by evading my questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 16, 2013 Members Share Posted January 16, 2013 So basically no-one knows, and everyone has bible verses to back up their argument. Here is the real question - does it really matter? I'd say no to your first part, there does seem to be disagreement though. As to your question, it depends. There are many that want to know and there are those that don't. So you can say it does matter to some. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Does it really matter? For many SDAs, state of the dead, Sabbath, second coming, EGW etc. are optional beliefs, not critical. They still belong to the club, get baptized, teach Sabbath School, go to seminary, write books. What's to worry for a few Roman Catholic teachings? Or Buddhist? Relax, they're people too. This is the ecumenical age, don't be a bigot. "We should chill and learn from the other Churches" "They've been around longer" Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Well folks it sure matters to me and many others with me, to know who our Saviour Is. Yes and He does reveal it! Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 What I mean is this. So really read through this thread. There are a lot of verses backing each statement. The last one Gibs posted seems to support both. So possibly it has a complexity that we might not understand. Or to a degree both sides are right. I mean this is a God and things just may not be as we see them with our human concept and conditioning. So I ask does it matter? Great topic for discussion. Great thing to try and figure out. But in the end does it change how you worship? Does it change the message of your God? Will it change your opinion of your God either way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Quote: So I ask does it matter? Great topic for discussion. Great thing to try and figure out. But in the end does it change how you worship? Does it change the message of your God? Will it change your opinion of your God either way? IMO, the nature of the Trinity, Triune God, or whatever you want to call them is beyond human understanding. It's fun to conjecture, debate and theorize over. But whether they are 3 distinct Beings or 3 aspects of the same Being does not impact the way I worship; nor does it change my opinion of God. I acknowledge that it may for some people; and that's OK. The only thing I am sure of is that none of them are "created beings" made from "created" stuff. They are all God, and all composed of "God" stuff - whatever that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 EmptyCross, Quote: So really read through this thread. There are a lot of verses backing each statement. The last one Gibs posted seems to support both. That was my rebuttal to Gibs earlier in the thread - several of the verses he used could very much be used in context to support the opposing perspective. This is a point he refuses to acknowledge. You are very right - this is a matter of good study and discussion. Now, the thread has shifted to the glorified nature of Christ... Gibs, you still do not have a viable argument in support of your thesis. You have stated Christ and the Father are one substance. Yet, in Christ is still fully human even now, with flesh and bones, per the Scripture. The Father's "substance" has never changed - per Christ's testimony in John 4, "the Father is Spirit", not "flesh and bone". That alone invalidates your point. Such glaring differences, along with your consistent refusal to grant what the context of the Scriptures say elsewhere, is what is destroying your thesis. Going back to Christ's statement, "I and the Father are one", as a catch-all is neither good Bible study nor good exegesis. The nature of our God is very complex, yet He is very understandable - nice paradox. Perhaps that is why He is able to use fools (like me) to humble those deeming themselves wise and mighty... Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ted, the context, is the key. Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him when He stated that? Here's what EGW said of that, "The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3} No Jesus was not another God made from a God substance but they are one! I bring this up as some have said He was, as there never was any God formed but Yahweh King of Israel! The following verse proves this, Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. And Isaiah makes it clear there is but ONE God, Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any. The crux of the matter is Jesus makes it known who He and the Father is and I've posted the verses more than one since and in my thesis, Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. There is many that believe this is a salvation issue and very well could be. The Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and so to worship the Son is to worship the Father and to worship the Son is to worship the Father! Jesus has revealed this very clearly if minds and hearts are not turned against the testimonies He has given. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ted, the context, is the key. Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him when He stated that? Here's what EGW said of that, "The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3} No Jesus was not another God made from a God substance but they are one! I bring this up as some have said He was, as there never was any God formed but Yahweh King of Israel! The following verse proves this, Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. And Isaiah makes it clear there is but ONE God, Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any. The crux of the matter is Jesus makes it known who He and the Father is and I've posted the verses more than one since and in my thesis, Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. There is many that believe this is a salvation issue and very well could be. The Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and so to worship the Son is to worship the Father and to worship the Son is to worship the Father! Jesus has revealed this very clearly if minds and hearts are not turned against the testimonies He has given. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Yes, Gibs, context IS key. And the context, again, can be used to support BOTH arguments. Again, you place too much emphasis upon that particular usage of the word "one". Perhaps you see it so, but it is clear I and others hear do not. Every verse you have used can also be seen from the facet of the Triune Godhead, and used just as well there. You haven't provided anything unique to your thesis. This is a contextual point you are unwilling to concede, for you seem to fear that in doing so, you lose the debate. All it tells me is that you are striving for understanding, just like the rest of us. Elohim (God) and YHWH were never "formed", Gibs. Christ was never "formed", either. As I refer again to Hebrews 10:10, Christ stepped into a body which was prepared for Him, not to be Him. Because of the conditions required of Christ's own covenant with humanity, He has accepted this body to be His permanent dwelling place. He will always be with us as our new Adam, the Head of our race. At the same time, He is also fully Deity, one with the Father He brings us to. That still leaves the Father apart, not in human form, but in unalterable and Divine glory of Deity, as Christ sits upon the throne the Father shares with Him. That, Gibs, is the mystery we strive to understand. It takes two (or more) persons to fully demonstrate what Divine agape really is. A Oneness that appears as 3 to us, and a 3 that are truly One in every aspect of self-sacrificing love, is the true mystery what we are striving to understand. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ted, You still don't recognize that it was the Father that was in Christ, Christ was of the Father Himself, of His own substance. He was not born or created or formed. Of the Father there never was a time but what He was. Jesus says this in so many words here Himself. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Philip was seeing the Father when looking at Jesus and did not realize it, but Jesus made it clear to him. Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? The Father extended Himself into His Redeemer Whom He gave to us in the body of Jesus Christ to be also our Receemer at Bethlehem. Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; No, absolutely no, I do not place too much emphasis on one! One is singular and stands alone. There is but ONE God and no other anywhere shape or form. Jesus Christ was God with us as it was the Father that was in Him! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Gibs, John 14:9 simply means that Christ was not a revelation of Himself but of the Father. The divinity of Christ was there the whole time but it was held back so that only the Father was revealed. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. The verse above is who one sees when seeing Christ, and that is who Philip saw and we should too, it can't be plainer. No Trinity, God the Father was in Christ! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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