The Trinity?

[Ted Oplinger]

Gibs, your cavalier use of the Scriptures to mean only what you want it to say destroys your argument. I am much less inclined to believe your perspective now, than when you began your posting. You cannot even discuss the inconsistencies within your perspective. Pity.

Later,

[Gibs]

Ted it is not I who is cavaliering anything or use of scripture,

You need to go back and seriously read my original thesis on this, and take the time and really read it. You are not reading and understanding much of what I have posted.

I gave you solid scripture for what I have posted and you make something of them they don't say.

The scripture states one God and only one and you can’t make 3 from a one.

The Holy Spirit is solidly what God is, not another God

Jesus is the Father in Him, not another God, THE God is in Him, Yahshua Jesus tells you Yahweh is His Father and your Father and His God and your God..

When He was here as one of us that Deity was covered and hidden in humanity.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

What I mean is this.

So really read through this thread. There are a lot of verses backing each statement.

The last one Gibs posted seems to support both.

So possibly it has a complexity that we might not understand. Or to a degree both sides are right. I mean this is a God and things just may not be as we see them with our human concept and conditioning.

So I ask does it matter? Great topic for discussion. Great thing to try and figure out.

But in the end does it change how you worship? Does it change the message of your God? Will it change your opinion of your God either way?

You ask: "Does it matter?

I believe it does.

"Jesus Christ gave us an example that we should follow. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1 Peter 2:21

Who did Jesus Christ say is "God"? Who did Jesus Christ worship? Was it ever recorded that he worshiped a "unity of three co-eternal persons"? Did Jesus Christ ever say "God is a unity of three co-eternal persons"?

He said: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. " John 4:23-24

He DID NOT say: but the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the unity of three co-eternal persons in spirit and in truth. For the unity of three co-eternal persons seeketh such to worship them.

[epaminondas]

That depends by what you mean by the Trinity. If it's merely a collection that includes the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, yes, it exists and is Biblical. But anything more, like the following is not Biblical:

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A set consisting of the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit which is each individually fully our God, but added together don't add up to three Gods. Although the set (a set is a collection not containing duplicates) is one god, each member is not fractionally god. All three members of this set are equal in rank and one did not create the other.

The first problem is a logical one. We know (theologians not included, like Johnny English, they know nothing) that 1 + 1 + 1 != 1 (!= means "is not"). We also know that 1/3 != 1.

Now, if in order to believe any concept demands one believes something one knows is not true, what nonsense cannot claim to be fact? Of course, here the theologians invoke magic - everything is possible for God. Can God create a stone too heavy for Him to lift? If one has to invoke magic to make a concept believable all nonsense can be believed.

Secondly, many words are used in a vague way by proponents of the Trinity. What do they mean by "substance?" Matter, energy, cellular tissue, plasma? Because all life we know on Earth can be taxonomically defined (categorized as belonging to this or that species and subspecies), does that mean things in heaven are the same? People who bring in "substance" here don't know what they are talking about.

Thirdly, Jesus unambiguously and clearly stated there is only one God, the Father. See John 17:3. Jesus clearly put himself in a category apart from the Father.

Quote:

ACV: John 17:3. And this is eternal life, that they should know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou sent.

And Paul said:

Quote:

ACV: I Corinthians Chapter 8

[5] For also since there are things called gods, whether in heaven or on the earth, as there are many gods and many lords,

[6] yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

These two quotations are clear and unambiguous. Any in support of the Trinity are vague and can be twisted this way and that.

Gerhard goes on and on about God being spirit. Greek had only the definite article with the indefinite implied in all cases where the definite is not used. And in any case, what exactly is the "spirit" you are going on about? Is it flesh, is it energy? Nee man, jy praat nonsens.

The words god and lord in the New Testament can even refer to humans or pagan gods.

Search for "One Hundred Scriptural Arguments For the Unitarian Faith" in Google and look at that list. I can refute a few, but even if only fifty are still standing, trinitarians have a problem.

Jesus said he didn't know the exact time of the second coming, making him not omniscient. Nowhere does it say that that was only while he was on Earth. Trinitarians invent this last part.

All arguments for the Trinity are easily refuted. Go to sdaforums dot org and look at the part about the trinity.

The trinity came in about 250 - 400 AD when Rome was in bad trouble and the Christians needed a powerful god. Jesus was elevated to god status, and while they were at it, so was the Holy Spirit. Athanasius admitted it needed magic to be believable.

The wide belief in the full blown trinity concept speaks volumes for the intelligence of people. The full blown trinity concept is so clearly logical nonsense and not Biblical, even a slow pre-schooler will notice that.

And show me where in the New Testament it says we should pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said we should pray to "our Father." And go through Paul's writings and see whom he prayed to and advised the recipients of his letters to pray to.

[Dr. Waite]

Jesus said: John 4:22 "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Did the Jews during the time of Jesus worship a trinity? or a "unity of three co-eternal persons"?

Jesus said: we(the Jews) know what we worship.

Do you know what you worship?

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted it is not I who is cavaliering anything or use of scripture,

You need to go back and seriously read my original thesis on this, and take the time and really read it. You are not reading and understanding much of what I have posted.

[epaminondas]

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I never said Jesus was "another God". I did say He is as much God as the Father. Very subtle distinction.

The inevitable conclusion is that Jesus and the Father are one and the same, not merely one in purpose and in full agreement. The quote above is an example of smoke and mirrors.

Quote:

I do remember posting 3=1 and 1=3

Absolute nonsense. Even a grade school kid will know that. I suppose it's the old mystic knowledge, gnosticism in part and too wonderful for mere mortals to understand - that's to say magic. Any concept that needs magic to make it acceptable is to be rejected.

[Gibs]

Jesus didn't role play anything. That is not a reality at all.

The absolute reality is The Father and the Deity of Christ are one and the same. At Bethlehem that was mysteriously blended of which we can not fully understand with our finite minds here.

But we do know Deity was blended with the seed of David born of Mary with our fallen and sinful nature. Yes He overcome from where we must and took no power but is ours to overcome. "Christ in you" is that power!

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

The trinity doctrine takes from those who believe it who their Redeemer actually is.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

His Spirit guides one into all truth.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And more, "things to come"!

There is only one God involved and that is the Father, and He was the God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Read 2 Cor. 5:19.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Gibs, here are statements that I have not seen you address:

1–3 (Prov. 8:22–27; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:15–17; Heb. 1:8). The Eternity of Christ.—If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore.

The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. RH April 5, 1906.

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. 1980 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (1126). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. (ST Feb. 13, 1912).

[Gibs]

Yes Gerry, those points you bring up are all addressed in my thesis or answers to questions many have brought up.

As I have stated there is only one way Jesus could rightly proclaim "I am the first" is only if He is in fact The Father in Him. The Father is first, but Jesus could rightly state it as it is the Father that is the Deity in Him.

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Possessed means, extension, procure. He was not a born or created or formed one in the beginning before the works of old, but that is when the Father extended Himself into His and then latter our Redeemer.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

When Christ is in us, the Father is also,

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Why would He when He knew who was in Him! His Father in the body of flesh, was Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem.

I have stated Yahweh of Hosts was the creator of all things and the Hosts and even Satan, He was sent to do this. The Father had given to Him ALL HIS POWWER!

But when the total mission is completed Gerry and I have posted these more than once so for now, just carefully and with His Spirit to open up to you read 1 Cor 15:24-28.

Those verses are absolutely profound, with a profound understanding if you catch the meaning. They also cinch the truth of the Fathers vestment in Him, Jesus and finally returned that now once again after a long, long time the Father is ALL IN ALL again as He was in the earliest beginning, before possessing His and then latter our Redeemer.

I've stated most of these statements in replies that if read and my original thesis there wouldn't be all this questioning.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

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The absolute reality is The Father and the Deity of Christ are one and the same. At Bethlehem that was mysteriously blended of which we can not fully understand with our finite minds here.

Magic. If it were not for magic the full blown trinity concept would have been untenable. What is there that couldn't claim to be true if one is allowed to invoke magic?

[Gibs]

epaminondas,

You are right,yes we have a real Saviour, not a magic one that don't exist. We surely must know who He is and that is a must.

Here is the quick and easy way to see there is no trinity and who Jesus is,

First of all the place to start is at the beginning and that is,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Possessed there means, extension, or procured.

We can make this easy with some hard facts, scripture by Jesus,

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Well it is plumb clear that in time Jesus is not the first, so what is the answer?

Well it is ridiculously easy. He was the Father extended from Himself answers it and so many more questions. Yes Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem was exactly the same age as the Father because He was out of the Father Himself.

But know at the same time He was not a born, created or formed being but is one and the same substance as the Father. Jesus then ends the mystery of this with this statement,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Then at Bethlehem the babe in Mary was her son and the Father in Heavens Son. Heaven was emptied of Yahweh of Hosts as He came in that Babe. Now for sure He had the Divine Nature unstained in any way and on the other, being the son of Mary, the seed of David 4,000 yrs after the fall He also had our fallen and sinful nature. He must overcome from where we must, not as God but as one of us and that He did or Satan would have yelled out foul play, He took an advantage!

That Jesus never did. He used only the same power we are privileged to have!

Now the great point of this is, when we come to him and in full surrender and death of self, then He comes in and is the new and powerful master in the soul temple. We now have His Divine Nature and the same power as he had to overcome all things. Christ in you is the same as the Father in you as they are one.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

This is the way He has made, this is the plan of salvation that all His will be over comers with Him and we are His, He has bought us.

He in us, "Christ in you is the hope of Glory". Do we have an excuse? I say no!

When we have come in repentance we are truly forgiven and given power then to walk above sinning. He is our victory giving us power over all the evil of this world.

It is clear to me that it is of utmost importance to know who our Redeemer is. For sure and no doubt about it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Yes He was the Fathers Redeemer and later became ours at Bethlehem.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

The Father had possessed Him in the beginning of His way.

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Our Father knew before all things He would need a Redeemer. He did not create one or one wasn't born of Him nor did He form Him, but He the Redeemer was an extension of Himself.

You see the Redeemer is also the preexistant eternal one, able to truly proclaim "I am the first". Don't we know there is only one first?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

That depends by what you mean by the Trinity. If it's merely a collection that includes the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, yes, it exists and is Biblical. But anything more, like the following is not Biblical:

Quote:

A set consisting of the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit which is each individually fully our God, but added together don't add up to three Gods. Although the set (a set is a collection not containing duplicates) is one god, each member is not fractionally god. All three members of this set are equal in rank and one did not create the other.

A “collection” or a “set” ---what’s the difference? It still is no more than Epaminondas-wisdom and adding up that gets no one anywhere.

A collection may contain duplicates, a set not. Asking that question shows you don't know much about mathematics. And South Africa had a good schooling system when I went to school there in the fifties and sixties. Seems to me, like everything else...

[epaminondas]

Quote:

the Father extended from Himself

It's without statements like these that the trinity can't exist. Essentially you are saying the Father divided into two, like an Amoeba.

By contrast all statements and Biblical quotes against the trinity are simple and straight-forward. Even so, the vague and unclear will continue to be preferred by those living in a world of words and ideas as opposed to a world of fact and reality. There's nothing anybody can do about this. Look up Occam's Razor.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Deity must necessarily have at least 2, and from the New Testament, 3, manifestations of the same Deity.

Where is this in the Bible? Why stop at two or three? The Hindus will agree with you, though.

[Gerr]

Yes Gerry, those points you bring up are all addressed in my thesis or answers to questions many have brought up.

As I have stated there is only one way Jesus could rightly proclaim "I am the first" is only if He is in fact The Father in Him. The Father is first, but Jesus could rightly state it as it is the Father that is the Deity in Him.

Convoluted reasoning! So, when Jesus was praying after His baptism, it was the Father in Him who was praying? And when the answer came from heaven, whose voice was it? The Father in heaven talking to the Father in Jesus?

And when the Father told His Son, "Sit at my right hand," the Father was talking to the Father in Jesus to sit at His right hand?

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

Quote:

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

ESV | ‎Ge 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

"One flesh," so then, what does this mean? That Adam was Eve, and Eve was Adam?

Quote:

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

You have been quoting a number of passages that has nothing to do about proving your case. On the contrary, it disproves your position. Phil 2:6-11 is talking about TWO different persons! Verse 9 says, "Therefore God has highly exalted Him [Jesus] and He [the Father] bestowed on Him [Jesus the Son] the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father."

[Gibs]

Gerry, When Jesus was praying it was the man Jesus praying, His fathers voice was heard in response. He had to pray to His Father in Heaven as a man same as us.

The vestment, extension of Himself in Jesus of course was the Fathers vestment of Himself into His and then our Redeemer.

Sure there is the Father, a person, and then Jesus the man a person and a Son of His born of woman.

It is very plain to see. He Jesus had the Deity of the Father in Him and could have overcome Satan as God who was in Him but He must do it as one of us taking no power but we can have and from where we are. Yes for sure He took on Him our fallen sinful nature.

Satan was unable to get Jesus to reach within and use His power of being fully God in a body which Satan for sure knew He had. If Satan could have gotten Jesus to use His power as God, Satan would have won right then.

Tell me, what other God could be in Jesus but Yahweh? He was always Yahweh. First Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem and then after, Yahshua, Yah Saviour.

There is only one God and Father of all, His Name is YHWH, Yahweh.

Now,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Now Jesus tells us,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

So we see He too then is able to take the name of His Father of whom He is of and the equal as it pleased the father that in Him all fullness dwelt.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The one and only God there is and ever was and will be was in Jesus Christ and is still in Him.

"Christ in you" the hope of Glory is the same as the Father in you!

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God is Spirit, what is impossible to Him? Shall we the needing His redeemption limit Him?

Yes, there is absolutely no doubt whatever that Yah the Father and Yah the Son are ONE.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Whose hand would you be plucking them out of,

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand

The Father's or the Son's hand is one and the same!

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Gerry, When Jesus was praying it was the man Jesus praying, His fathers voice was heard in response. He had to pray to His Father in Heaven as a man same as us.

ESV | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ‎2 He was in the beginning with God.

Is John here talking about one person or two?

Quote:

The vestment, extension of Himself in Jesus of course was the Fathers vestment of Himself into His and then our Redeemer.

Now, if you could put what you just said into something I can understand, that would be appreciated.

vest•ment \ˈves(t)-mənt\ noun

[Middle English vestement, from Anglo-French, from Latin vestimentum, from vestire to clothe] 13th century

1 a : an outer garment especially : a robe of ceremony or office

b plural : CLOTHING, GARB

2 : a covering resembling a garment

3 : one of the articles of the ceremonial attire and insignia worn by ecclesiastical officiants and assistants as indicative of their rank and appropriate to the rite being celebrated

Extension - an enlargement in scope or operation; a property whereby something occupies space; a part constituting an addition

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

[joeb]

They are for sure of ONE substance as it is very clear the Holy Spirit is what God is. How many is ONE?

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. So now we see the Father and Jesus are one substance. You know I have no doubt that Jesus knew what He was telling us!

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

It is so simple that 5'th grade level can see that. The Father is in Him, they are one and the same substance!

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Paul was telling this to those of whom he knew to have Christ in them. You see "Christ in you" is the Father in you, one Spirit one God and it is by Spirit as that is what He is.

The Father not only gave of Himself in our Redeemer, but He also gave to us His Son, born of Mary, the Prince of the Father and yet one of us.

Don't you see now that the Father knew us and our frailties as well as the Son.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Hmmm.... According to your reading of these texts, that there can be no other meaning than literally one person, then this makes Genesis 2:24 mean that a husband and wife literally become one physical person.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall become one flesh.

This seems to be a very narrow and dogmatic reading of the verses you have quoted as we know a husband and wife remain physically separate, yet the wording of the text is basically identical to the texts you have quoted.

[Gibs]

Gerry, John is talking about Yahshua of Hosts His redeemer of Himself of whom the conference is between them. Yes the father set him out separate from Himself and still He the Redeemer is Himself. Is this impossible for our Father who is Spirit? No of course not.

Gerry there comes the time this vestment of the Father into a Redeemer is no longer needed. The sin problem will soon be done away with once and for all time, into all eternity. I've posted these before,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

He isn't to quit until His Job is done!

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. ( The Father is excepted! )

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Father has not been ALL IN ALL until then for ages. His vested Self into His and our Redeemer is no longer ever to be needed again.

So you see who our Redeemer really and truly is!

God only could be our Redeemer as none other could suffice. The highest angel was not sufficient.

It is not robbery of the Father to worship our Redeemer as to worship Him is to worship the father and visa versa.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And so "Christ in you" is the Father in you!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

( We know for sure Yahshua, Jesus was not before Yahweh the Father, so He has to be The Father manifest. These verses, of Isa. is the words of Yahweh of Hosts)

Isa 43:14 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

( Remember Yahweh of Hosts and our Redeemer, the Father has put all in His hands to complete. Remember He was sent.)

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

It is not robbery of the Father to worship our Redeemer as to worship Him is to worship the father and visa versa.

So, in fact, to worship himself. This is narcissism taken to new extremes. The "is not robbery" expression is also extremely unclear and can therefore be twisted this way and that. It's a pity we don't have Paul to ask what he meant by that.

The trinity doctrine is built on statements like these. Sunday worship is not as illogical and unbiblical as the trinity, although it also is pure nonsense.

What about debunking some of the clear statements against the trinity from the Bible? Like John 17:3.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

ESV | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Bible translators were all trinitarians. This is not the only verse in the Bible wrongly given a trinitarian slant. The comma Iohanneum (look it up) and the "I am" passage are others. That's why I say theologians are inherently dishonest.

The literal translation of John 1:1 is:

"In a beginning was the word and the word was with the god and a god was the word."

The official way changes the common noun, "god," to a proper noun (a name), "God." "The god" indicates one, as the only one in context, of a group or one as the only representative of that group. Like you can talk of "the dog" if you're on an island with only one dog or the dog you are talking about is the only dog in context.

If John meant John 1:1 to be taken as trinitarians take it and John 17:3 to be taken as it stands, he contradicts himself and is therefore unreliable. He could have been clearer in John 1:1.

Here Jesus corrects the Jews who said he had claimed to be God and told them he had claimed to be the "son of God." Jesus also points out that the word "god" is loosely used in the Bible.

Quote:

ACV: John Chapter 10

[32] Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from my Father. Because of them, which work do ye stone me?

[33] The Jews answered him, saying, We stone thee not about a good work, but about blasphemy, and because thou, being a man, make thyself God.

[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?

[35] If he designated those men gods, for whom the word of God came to be (and the scripture cannot be broken),

[36] whom the Father made holy and sent into the world, do ye say, Thou blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?

It will need much smoke and many mirrors to overthrow this.

[John317]

...You quote Deut 6:4 as an example. While in English, it appears to support your premise, in the Hebrew, it does not. You quote the KJV version; is adds the word Lord at the end, where in other English versions and the Hebrew, it is not there. I do realize other versions (like the RSV and ASV) also include the extra Lord, but I keep in mind it is a supplied word.

The NASB and the New KJ versions have it rendered as this:

NASB - Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

New KJ - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

The Hebrew Transliteration: Listen, Israel! YHWH Elohim YHWH one!

It can also be correctly translated "Listen, Israel! YHWH Elohim YWHW same!

..."Listen, Israel!" is in the imperative. The people are being commanded to give special attention to these words.

YHWH - the proper name for our God as He interacts with humanity. In the Old Testament, I have not seen this name used outside of this context at all. It is first seen in Genesis 2, where God is seen creating man. Who does the New Testament credit the creation of man to? Not the Father, but the aspect of Deity who became Incarnate - Jesus.

Elohim - the word used to describe God in general. It is extremely important, as this word is never singular in the Old Testament. It is used as the noun for "God" and as an noun adjective to describe God. God is always depicted as being a plural Being. This is plainly seen in Genesis 1, where God (Elohim) says in His intention to create man, "Let US make man in OUR image". The plurality is upheld. Both the New Testament and the Spirit of Prophecy declare the creation of man to be a joint experience between the One we address as Father, and the One we address as Jesus.

one/same - this word is used to denote both singularity and equality, particularly when used as an adjective, as it is here. In this context, it is describing Elohim and YHWH to be one and the same.

The conclusion: Either YHWH is the aspect of the plural God designated the role of Creator/Redeemer of man, or YWHW is plural, being equated to the plural Elohim. Either way, the language points me to a plural Godhead, which I see sustained in the Old Testament, and not just maintained, but expanded to three separate Agents in the New Testament - a Trinity, a plural 3 that are one and the same - a "Father" role, a "Son" role, and a "Comforter/Teacher" role (what is given the name "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost")...

x10 And it's well worth posting and reading again!