The Trinity?

[Guest]

May God be with you in your move.

But those quotes do not say "The Holy Spirit God" or "God the Holy Spirit"

They say the spirit OF God. And the power OF God.

"Oh, that the power of God may rest upon the people."

And in the one place where it does say "The power of the Holy Spirit" notice that it doesn't say to pray TO that power, but FOR that power. That is an important distinction.

[Gibs]

Joeb,

Keep in mind this verse in your thinking,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

He, Yahweh, LORD of Hosts was possessed of Yahweh the King of Israel in the beginning.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

LORD of Hosts was used 245 times in 235 verses in the KJV in the old testament.

The name Jesus Christ never was used until He, LORD of Hosts was incarnated into Jesus Christ the body prepared for Him to come in.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Jesus was that body.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gustave]

Can you explain "eternal generation" and cite biblical texts that support such a purported phenomenon?

Christ is called 'The Word' of God...

...This is a description of what we can fathom as a creation of God.

...I.E. that the words you speak are formed in YOUR OWN mind.

We are all finite creations / creatures of an "infinite God"...

...We are informed that Christ "is" 'The Word', or Verbum Mentis of The Father.

...Just like the words "you speak" produces a picture of yourself.

John 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Contrary to the Anthropomorphite teachings of Seventh Day Adventistism....

...Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheranism, Calvanism, Baptists, etc.

...Believe that prior to the Incarnation God was pure Spirit.

...Therefore God the Son is an ETERNAL Generation of God the Father.

...Like the sounds you make have existed as long as you've existed.

Since God The Father has eternally existed God The Son is ( and always has been ) eternally Generated...

...This is why the holy Apostles calls The Son the actual 'Word of God'.

...Because He is actually and literally the Word of God.

In Adventist theology God The Father was and is a flesh & bone "hominid God"...

...With all the organs, members and parts of a perfect man.

...The ONLY Being with "immutability".

Creature Christ however in Adventist theology was capable of moral mutation...

...A mutable creature Christ with a "conditional deity".

...The deity was real but was "on loan" or "gifted" to creature Christ.

If Creature Christ was able to "tow the rope" and meet the conditions of this gifted deity....

...Then creature Christ would be able to keep it ( the deity ).

...If creature Christ sinned His gifted deity would have been extracted by Ultimate God.

...And creature Christ would have rotted in the tomb.

So says Ellen & James White along with every other Arian anti-Trinitarian that created the SDA Church...

...The SDA Church is still stuck with this teaching today.

...Because to deny it would be to deny Ellen's status as a prophet.

[8thdaypriest]

HE had to be "made like unto" His brethren in EVERY way. I personally believe that HE emptied Himself of His divine nature before His incarnation. He gave it into the hands of His Father. "Into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."

As a human being, He took the nature of Abraham. He had to pass every test as a human. He depended upon the Spirit of His Father, just as we do. The only difference was that He was filled with that Spirit from conception. We must consent to that infilling. So Yeshua had somewhat of a "head start." If HE did have an advantage, it was balanced by the test. He was given into the hands of men under the control of demons. His mind was tormented by every demon of HELL, fighting for their existence and power.

If HE had "cheated" and used a power that is not available to us, then HE would have proved the Father unjust to require obedience. There is a study at my website: prophecyviewpoint.com called "Dominion," which goes into much more detail on this. You can view the written study or listen to the teaching while the notes scroll by.

God needed just one human being who would NOT bow in any way to Satan, who would keep covenant without fail. If HE had such a human, HE could then give the dominion (which Adam lost) to that man. With the dominion of earth, Christ takes LORDship of everything connected with this dimension - hence "all judgment is committed to the Son." That is what the judgment in Daniel chapt 7 is all about. At the conclusion, dominion is given to the Son.

[8thdaypriest]

I like 1 Cor. 15:45: "the last Adam (Yeshua) was made a life-giving spirit." That kinda says it - the Spirit Comforter, who is "in us" and "with us" is Christ. Interesting how HE spent 40 days on earth, then ascended 10 days before Pentecost. The greeting/victory celebrations took 3 days. THEN He would have entered upon the 7 days of consecration for the priesthood (See Lev.) and on the 8th day He became our High Priest - and He poured out the Spirit. We are to thank the Father for ALL things - including the Spirit. The Father gives the Spirit. (Jn 15;26, Lk 11:13). He is the source. His Spirit filled His Son, which enabled His Son to once again be omnipresent. Christ prayed that His followers would be "one, as You, Father are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us." "I in them, and You in Me" (Jn 17:12,23). The Father and His Son were "one" because they shared one Spirit - the Spirit of the Father. But now we are talking about the nature of the Holy Spirit, not the DNA of Yeshua.

[8thdaypriest]

Most scholars agree wthat 1 John 5:7 was added by Jerome under threat of death. It is not in ANY ancient Greek manuscript before the time of Jerome.

Matt. 28:19 was also inserted into the Byzantine text, approved and paid for by Constantine. The two older Greek manuscripts have the page that contains Matt 28:19 torn out. There is an older Aramaic manuscript which contains this verse, but it reads "in my name" NOT "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Here's a link: hppt://www.israelofgod.org/Constantine.html

I do NOT agree with everything at this website, but thought he did a great job researching the manuscript evidence for Matthew 28:19.

We could understand that God the Father said to His Son, "Let US make man in OUR image."

[Gibs]

Never the less whether you hold that 1 John 5:7 ought to be, it is absolute truth as the Holy Spirit the father and the Son are literally one, 1 and not in purpose only.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It was the Father in Christ and not another God, LORD of Hosts incarnated at Bethlehem aprox. 2,000 yrs. ago. He came in the body of the man prepared for Him, Jesus Christ.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Notice in the verses below, that one can no more pluck them from Christ's hand than the Father's because "I and my Father are one."

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

ONE, 1, SOLE! Just 1!

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Dr. Waite]

Never the less whether you hold that 1 John 5:7 ought to be, it is absolute truth as the Holy Spirit the father and the Son are literally one, 1 and not in purpose only.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It was the Father in Christ and not another God, LORD of Hosts incarnated at Bethlehem aprox. 2,000 yrs. ago. He came in the body of the man prepared for Him, Jesus Christ.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Notice in the verses below, that one can no more pluck them from Christ's hand than the Father's because "I and my Father are one."

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

ONE, 1, SOLE! Just 1!

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

"The love of God was Christ's theme when speaking of his mission and his work. "Therefore doth my Father love me," he says, "because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." My Father loves you with a love so unbounded that he loves me the more because I have given my life to redeem you. He loves you, and he loves me more because I love you, and give my life for you. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you." Well did the disciples understand this love as they saw their Saviour enduring shame, reproach, doubt, and betrayal, as they saw his agony in the garden, and his death on Calvary's cross. This is a love the depth of which no sounding can ever fathom. As the disciples comprehended it, as their perception took hold of God's divine compassion, they realized that there is a sense in which the sufferings of the Son were the sufferings of the Father. From eternity there was a complete unity between the Father and the Son. They were two, yet little short of being identical; two in individuality, yet one in spirit, and heart, and character." {YI, December 16, 1897 par. 5}

[o2bwise]

I know I have been away.

Gustave, using Scripture alone, are you sure that when Jesus is referred to as "the Word of God" (which I think I have seen twice in the NT), it is to be taken completely literally?

I mean...He was an actual personage walking about, was He not?

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

I know I have been away.

Gustave, using Scripture alone, are you sure that when Jesus is referred to as "the Word of God" (which I think I have seen twice in the NT), it is to be taken completely literally?

I mean...He was an actual personage walking about, was He not?

Blessings,

Tony

Yes, He was, He was with 'God' and WAS ( is ) 'God'...

...Elle White and her fellow religious understood The Father & The Son.

...Within the context of the Greek and Roman Pantheon of gods.

...This was Ellen's teaching on the subject.

[8thdaypriest]

Gibs quotes John 10:30 "I and my Father are one", to say that "the LORD" and "the Father" are one being - who indwelt a body named Jesus Christ.

Are husband and wife "one" being? But they are made "one" flesh.

Jesus prayed,

NKJ John 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. (Joh 17:20 NKJ)

So - are all of the redeemed going to be absorbed somehow INTO the Father Himself - so that there will only be ONE being existing when it's all done. I don't think so.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

I see this thread has 50 pages. I have not read them all.

Let me just say where I'm coming from on this issue.

I do NOT believe God is a Trinity of 3 co-equal, co-eternal divine beings.

I believe the Father, beget a Son out of Himself - in His exact image.

THAT was "the beginning."

This Son then became the agent of His Father in creation, mediation, role modeling, salvation, judgment, governance and restoration.

This Son is to be worshiped BECAUSE the Father commands it.

I believe the Father gives His Spirit to those who ask Him. He gives His Spirit thru His Son, who is now at His right hand. We experience that Spirit as the presence of Christ with us.

There is NO COMMAND (or example for us) to pray to the Holy Spirit, worship the Holy Spirit, or serve the Holy Spirit.

John saw every being in heaven and on earth saying with a loud voice, "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, AND to the Lamb forever and ever! (Rev. 5:13) TWO beings are worshiped here - NOT THREE.

10 times Paul opened a letter with, "Grace to you and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ." What? He forgot the Spirit? He forgot to say, Grace to you and peace from the Holy Spirit ?? I don't think so.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

In '98 I self published a book titled "The Persons of God." I searched the EGW database for 4 years and found a window of 10 years where EVERY "three" statement was written. Marion Davis was her underwriter during those 10 years, and she was influence by Herbert C. Lacey.

Anyway - There are only 5 copies left - sitting in my closet.

In 1994, I was challenged by a dear friend who had come to believe that our God is NOT a Trinity. I was DETERMINED to correct this heresy!! I hardly spoke to my best friend for months.

I took out 3 legal pads and decided I was going to read thru the whole NT, and note any references which spoke to the issue.

On one pad I would put those references which suggested that God is ONE BEING who manifests in three ways.

On the second I would put those references that suggest God is the FATHER and source of all, who beget another being (a son) out of Himself, in His exact divine likeness.

On the third legal pad I would put those references that suggested that God is union of THREE distinct, co-equal, co-eternal BEINGS, in unity of purpose.

When I finished - the first legal pad had several pages filled with verses.

The third legal pad had only part of one page.

The second legal pad was not enough. I went thru 6 legal pads with verses which suggested that God the ultimate source of all, beget a Son out of Himself. That Son created all things, led Israel thru the wilderness, was worshiped as YAHWEH, and finally incarnated as a human being.

I am very big on "the weight of evidence." I NEVER say that my view is absolute truth. I will only say which way I think the weight of evidence falls, and why.

BTW

I removed any quotations from EGW out of my book, and posted the content at my website.

Anyone wanting to understand WHY some of us do NOT believe that our God is a Trinity, can view the study at my website.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

Rachel

[Gibs]

It is laid out very solid that there is but one God and none other and here is just one,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Even tells us who our Saviour is!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gordon1]

I searched the EGW database for 4 years and found a window of 10 years where EVERY "three" statement was written. Marion Davis was her underwriter during those 10 years, and she was influence by Herbert C. Lacey.

That's an interesting fruit of research.

Impartial students of EGW know she was not Trinitarian. Her foundational theology was consistent throughout her lifetime. Otherwise she would have been compelled to issue a world-wide confession that her teaching about God had changed.

True prophets don't make mistakes about God.

He doesn't call the double-minded to be His pen.

She knew from the start and so did the pioneers.

"Upon this foundation we have been building for the past fifty years." 1 Selected Messages 207. (1904)

"The truth that has stood firm against the attacks of the enemy for more than half a century must still be the confidence and comfort of God's people." 9 Testimonies 70. (1907)

[Green Cochoa]

I see this thread has 50 pages. I have not read them all.

Let me just say where I'm coming from on this issue.

I do NOT believe God is a Trinity of 3 co-equal, co-eternal divine beings.

I believe the Father, beget a Son out of Himself - in His exact image.

THAT was "the beginning."

This Son then became the agent of His Father in creation, mediation, role modeling, salvation, judgment, governance and restoration.

This Son is to be worshiped BECAUSE the Father commands it.

I believe the Father gives His Spirit to those who ask Him. He gives His Spirit thru His Son, who is now at His right hand. We experience that Spirit as the presence of Christ with us.

There is NO COMMAND (or example for us) to pray to the Holy Spirit, worship the Holy Spirit, or serve the Holy Spirit.

John saw every being in heaven and on earth saying with a loud voice, "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, AND to the Lamb forever and ever! (Rev. 5:13) TWO beings are worshiped here - NOT THREE.

10 times Paul opened a letter with, "Grace to you and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ." What? He forgot the Spirit? He forgot to say, Grace to you and peace from the Holy Spirit ?? I don't think so.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[Ted Oplinger]

Green Cochoa,

Interesting handle there. I sense a story behind it...but I digress.

Going back over the ~50 (my personal posts/page settings make it ~40) pages of this thread, you will find the EGW stand argued from both perspectives, and each is dug into their position. Each side likes to say they have "proven" their point to complete clarity...but if that were true, then this thread would not be so long now, would it?

Yes, I do own a CD Library of EGW's writings, and did indeed look up the references quoted back and forth here as this thread unfolded...and remain of the belief EGW's writings were not meddled with by Trinitarian workers to convey the Trinity as church doctrine.

I find such "conspiracy theories" lacking in substance when researching our history as a people. I generally find these are more or less excuses found by people who want to find fault in my God's people are still around ~170 years after the Great Disappointment, when in the 1860's, EGW's writings contained the words, "Christ could have come ere this". There are some who have some genuine reservations about the certain issues, but it does seem these are far fewer than professed to be.

Good to have your input here.

Blessings in return,

[8thdaypriest]

Here is the section from the series on the Trinity question at my website, concerning Matthew 28:19:

BAPTIZING THEM - IN THE NAME

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Scholarly work by those familiar with the ancient manuscripts has revealed no Greek manuscript older than the time of Constantine, which contains Matthew 28:19. The page containing Matthew 28:19 was torn from every pre-Constantine Greek manuscript. One Aramaic manuscript survives. In that manuscript, Matthew 28:19 reads, “baptizing them in my name.” In other words, Christ commanded them to baptize in HIS name, and many other passages confirm that the disciples did just that.

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 8:16 “For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 19:5 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I do NOT deny that the Holy Spirit exists. I believe that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, because every good gift proceeds FROM the Father, and we are to thank HIM for every gift. And He IS Spirit (John 4:24). His Spirit has filled and empowered the glorified Christ so that "the last Adam has been made a life-giving Spirit (The Holy Spirit) (1 Cor. 15:45). That is WHY Christ said that He would be with us always, and "in" us.

To say that I am deceived because I do NOT accept statements published in the name of Ellen White, or that I am sinning against the Holy Spirit because I do not believe that the Spirit is a third divine being - ..............

If God is THREE co-equal, co-eternal divine beings, THEN God did NOT give HIS only begotten SON.

If the Holy Spirit is a third divine being who communicates between Christ and man, then Christ is NOT the ONLY MEDIATOR.

Blessings

[Gibs]

God is a Spirit and not another God!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

It is necessary that our unity today be of a character that will bear the test of trial. . . . We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed. {TM 30.2}

White, E. G. (1923). Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (p. 30). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

[Gibs]

The Unity comes only in the absolute truth and those who are guided by His Spirit of truth will be in Unity with Him and the rest who have received Him. This the Unity that counts.

Not unity in errors of which most of Christendom is in today in many aspects, men are following men and not Jesus Christ and His Word!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[o2bwise]

Hi Green Cochoa,

Quote:

Green Cochoa:

Why does the Bible say God will send "strong delusions" in the end so that people will believe a lie? That's a solemn thought. We might think we know the truth but be self-deceived. How can we avoid such a deception? Only through the Holy Spirit--which being you deny.

I gave the above some thought.

Not saying this was intended, but I see the above as some persuasive tactic as not so cool.

When two people disagree on something, the departure between the two is identical in magnitude. Do you know what I mean? Sort of like if I think the answer to a math problem is 2 and another person thinks it is 6, that person thinks I am off by +4.

Meanwhile, I think he is off by -4.

Essentially, the persuasive tactic is to highlight the difference and call it a "denial."

Well, sure. That person can do the exact same thing. He can assert YOUR departure from what he sees as the truth as being a "denial." One can call the other's position "delusion."

Well, of course!

And so what is gained?

On the subject of the Holy Spirit, I have a few copies of a video that delves into the alpha apostasy. It quotes folks like Ellen White, Kellogg, and others.

Kellogg stated in no unclear terms that the basis for his new beliefs was his newfound embrace of the Trinity, specifically the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

I actually think the video did a substantial job of showing that Kellog's embracing of the Trinity, including the personhood of the HS to be what Ellen White referred to with respect to the alpha apostasy.

If anyone would like a copy of the video, let me know.

Carry on...

Tony

[phkrause]

Here is the section from the series on the Trinity question at my website, concerning Matthew 28:19:

BAPTIZING THEM - IN THE NAME

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Scholarly work by those familiar with the ancient manuscripts has revealed no Greek manuscript older than the time of Constantine, which contains Matthew 28:19. The page containing Matthew 28:19 was torn from every pre-Constantine Greek manuscript. One Aramaic manuscript survives. In that manuscript, Matthew 28:19 reads, “baptizing them in my name.” In other words, Christ commanded them to baptize in HIS name, and many other passages confirm that the disciples did just that.

The CJB translates Matthew 28:19 like this:

Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,

[8thdaypriest]

In "The Desire of Ages" published 1896 under Mrs. White's name, the Holy Spirit was called "the third person of the Godhead." I obtained copies of letters written to LeRoy Froom from Herbert C. Lacey, in 1945. Lacey remembers fondly the inclusion of that phrase in "Desire of Ages" as it was one which he had used in a series of lectures at Cooranbong, Australia, on "The Personality and Work of the Holy Ghost." Lacey had come out of the Church of England and was an admitted Trinitarian. He remembered that Marion Davis (Mrs. White's underwriter took (copious notes) at his lectures.

I have posted the copied pages of the letter at these links:

Page one: click here

Page two: click here

Page three: click here

The "NOT FOR PUBLICATION" was stamped by Froom himself. He actually burned most of his correspondence before his death.

Lacey notes that Mrs. White referred to the Holy Spirit by the neuter "it."

I have seen that the publishers went back and changed the "it" to "He" when they republished writings by Mrs. White, in later years.

Personally - I have no problem referring to the Holy Spirit as "He" because I believe that "He" is Christ - the last Adam who was "made a life giving Spirit."

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[8thdaypriest]

Here are a couple of later quotes from Mrs. White:

"In the Psalms, in the prophecies, in the gospels, and in the epistles, God has by revelation made prominent the vital truths concerning the agreement between the Father and the Son in providing for the salvation of a lost race."

RH, Spt 24, 1908, pr. 1

"At what infinite cost to the Father and to the Son was the merciful, wondrous provision made for our redemption!"

Signs of the Times, August 12, 1908, pr.3

"(John 3:16 quoted.) One wonderful in counsel was our Helper. The Son of God left the heavenly courts and gave His life as the propitiation for sin. He came to declare that altho the agencies of evil had created rebellion in heaven, and sin had entered the universe of God, yet Christ and the Father would redeem the fallen race."

Signs of the Times, Feb. 17, 1909, pr.9

When you read any quotation from Ellen White which uses the word "three" in a reference to God or "the Godhead" look to see WHEN it was actually written. I am almost certain you will find that it was written between 1900 and 1910, except for the "third person of the Godhead" phrase included in "The Desire of Ages" by Marion Davis. Marion Davis was underwriter for Mrs. White during those 10 years.

"All communication from heaven to earth since Adam's fall has come through Christ."

(July 4, 1900) The Kress Collection pg. 126

"For ten days the disciples offered their petitions for the outpouring of the Spirit, and Christ in heaven added His intercession. This was the occasion of His ascension and inauguration, a jubilee in heaven. He had ascended on high, leading captivity captive, and He now claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it out upon His disciples

(SW Nov. 28. 1905)." SDA Bible Commentary Vol. 6, pg. 1055

"The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the only begotten Son of God, binds the human agent, body, soul, and spirit, to the perfect, divine-human nature of Christ."

Selected Messages vol. 1, pg 251

"In His humanity Christ was dependent upon the Father, even as humanity is now dependent upon God for divine power in attaining unto perfection of character."

Signs of the Times, July 3, 1907 pr.2

I really dislike arguing a point of doctrine using something from Ellen White. It makes me VERY uncomfortable. The Scriptures should be enough. But I spent 4 years compiling the material published in "The Persons of God" so I guess it is all right if I pass some of that material on to you.

If someone would very much value a copy of that book, send me a personal message.

Blessings

Rachel