Moderators Gerr Posted January 29, 2013 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2013 There is not a shadow of doubt but that our Redeemer was the Father extended for our Salvation. Jesus always spoke as being subserviant to the Father because like Jesus stated, He was sent forth for a great task. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by him as his right. This was no robbery of God.--The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906, p. 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Yes Gerry because He came forth from God and then of course is God but not another God, Remember, Philip, you have seen me you have seen the Father. Sure it is no robbery of the Father to worship the son as to worship Him is to worship the son and visa versa! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Quote: Sorry, John 3:16 is not smoke and mirrors. It is a plain balck and white statemant. John 3:16 does not say Jesus was not created and then goes on to say in the same breath that Jesus was "begotten." As I said, begotten is a word with a meaning. It's not just a magical sound that can mean what you want it to mean, or not mean anything at all. It does indicate the following chronological flow: not existing --> begotten --> existing. This is not rocket science. It should be clear to even to most obtuse. It is even more obtuse to ignore John 1:1-14, and John 17:5. I do not accept Arius' position to be even a starting place for discussion. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I never was concerned to know Arius's position, don't need it, all I need is His Word. If Jesus isn't the Father manifest in the flesh then if we worshipped Him as God we are in trouble. But He is the Father manifest in the Flesh, Jesus says enough to settle it quick if accepted! Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? "Jesus was free from all sin and error; there was not a trace of imperfection in His life or character. He maintained spotless purity under circumstances the most trying. True, He declared, "There is none good but one, that is, God"; but again He said, "I and my Father are one." Jesus speaks of Himself as well as the Father as God, and claims for Himself perfect righteousness." (MS 141, 1901). {7BC 929.4} " To human eyes Christ was only a man, yet He was a perfect man. In His humanity He was the impersonation of the divine character. God embodied His own attributes in His Son--His power, His wisdom, His goodness, His purity, His truthfulness, His spirituality, and His benevolence. In Him, though human, all perfection of character, all divine excellence, dwelt. And to the request of His disciple, "Shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us," He could reply, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" "I and my Father are one" (John 14:8, 9; 10:30). . . . {TMK 111.2} Enoch says the Father sent forth His Thoughts, Word and Wisdom. We know Him as the Word and Wisdom and for sure He is the Fathers Thoughts! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 29, 2013 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2013 Yes Gerry because He came forth from God and then of course is God but not another God, Remember, Philip, you have seen me you have seen the Father. Sure it is no robbery of the Father to worship the son as to worship Him is to worship the son and visa versa! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Oh, so now you agree that the Son and the Father are distinct persons and not one and the same person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Gerry, Gerry, The son of man born of Mary is yes a person and the Fathers Wisdom Word and Thoughts Enoch stated. We know the Word and Wisdom were made Flesh and dwelt among us. Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Yes I've always stated the son born of Mary is another person, but not another God. There just is no other God to get involved in this. To worship the Son Jesus is to worship the Father, if it weren't it would be robbery of God the Father. Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Trinitarians worship another god if they don't see it is the Father that is in Christ. He Jesus is not another preexistant God. He is the preexistant one because it is the Father that is in Him. Get it straight! Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 On the Trinity, check out these links below, first is some history about it and the second is Trinity in Adventism, History of Trinity, http://www.2001translation.com/Trinity.html Trinity and Adventism, http://www.enjoying-the-spirit-filled-life.com/introduction-trinity-adventism.html Personally I don't need all that is brought out there but some may appreciate it. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Well, Gibs, you may not concern yourself with Arius' position, but your thought presentation treads pretty close to it. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Don't be mistaken, Arius was a Protestant. His opponents were in the majority and so wrote the history books. Only natural that he's smeared as a heretic today. But there's something wrong with drinking the majority Catholic position, as we are warned in Revelation 14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Or answer Terry Hill's question: What did these leading SDA pioneers all have in common? • Joseph Bates (1792-1872) • James White (1821-1891) • J.H. Waggoner (1820-1889) • John N. Andrews (1829-1883) • John N. Loughborough (1832-1924) • Uriah Smith (1832-1903) • S.N. Haskell (1833-1922) • A.T. Jones (1850-1923) • E.J. Waggoner (1855-1916) They were all Anti-Trinitarian. The Prophet Still Speaks: http://theprophetstillspeaks.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 The true understanding of this is important because trinitarian worship is worship of another God if you can't see that it is the Father in Christ. What is his name? You see before Bethlehem the Redeemers name was "Yahweh of Hosts", the Fathers Name. So when He came in Mary He is Yahshua, or some spell it Yahushua which means Yahweh Saviour or Yahweh our Messiah. Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. You do worship the one and only true God in worshipping Jesus unless you are seeing Him as a coexistent god with no name. You see God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19. Well my God is Yahweh. It you don't see Yahweh in Christ what is the name of the god you see in Him? 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 The true understanding of this is important because trinitarian worship is worship of another God if you can't see that it is the Father in Christ. What is his name? You see before Bethlehem the Redeemers name was "Yahweh of Hosts", the Fathers Name. So when He came in Mary He is Yahshua, or some spell it Yahushua which means Yahweh Saviour or Yahweh our Messiah. Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. You do worship the one and only true God in worshipping Jesus unless you are seeing Him as a coexistent god with no name. You see God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19. Well my God is Yahweh. It you don't see Yahweh in Christ what is the name of the god you see in Him? 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 It is not right to call it trinity as that is a misnomer. The Holy Spirit is what God is and it is the Father that is in Christ not another God. If one don't see that in the worship of Jesus that it is worship equally of the father one is worshipping a strange God. What is his name? My Redeemer is Yahweh, my Father is Yahweh. My Redeemer is Yahweh Messiah. He came in the body prepared for Him. Where and who is the other god that could be in Him and what is his name? I know of only one God. Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. LORD in all capital letters is , YHWH, Yahweh! Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 It is not right to call it trinity as that is a misnomer. The Holy Spirit is what God is and it is the Father that is in Christ not another God. If one don't see that in the worship of Jesus that it is worship equally of the father one is worshipping a strange God. What is his name? My Redeemer is Yahweh, my Father is Yahweh. My Redeemer is Yahweh Messiah. He came in the body prepared for Him. Where and who is the other god that could be in Him and what is his name? I know of only one God. Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. LORD in all capital letters is , YHWH, Yahweh! Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Joeb, the following verse answers you, 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. What God? Don't you know his Name, there is only One God, so it is not difficult. EGW was not a trinitarian. Many pull out things to support it but can't be done. It was some slick well orators of deception that brought in the Trinty doctrine. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 31, 2013 Moderators Share Posted January 31, 2013 Yes Gerry because He came forth from God and then of course is God but not another God, Remember, Philip, you have seen me you have seen the Father. WRONG!!! Hebrews says: "But of the Son He (the Father) says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever...... therefore God (the Son), your God (the Father), has anointed you..." Heb 1:8-9. Definitely TWO persons here. BTW, since what you are saying is just a repetition over and over again, I'd like to hear your position on the Holy Spirit. Is the HS a person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 31, 2013 Moderators Share Posted January 31, 2013 What God? Don't you know his Name, there is only One God, so it is not difficult. EGW was not a trinitarian. Many pull out things to support it but can't be done. The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1} The Pre-existent, Self-existent Son of God.--Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2} Life, Original, Unborrowed, Underived.--Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.--The Desire of Ages, p. 530 (1898) There is none so blind as one who refuses to see. Originally Posted By: gibs It was some slick well orators of deception that brought in the Trinty doctrine. Why would anyone do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Quote: 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. What God? Don't you know his Name, there is only One God, so it is not difficult. EGW was not a trinitarian. Many pull out things to support it but can't be done. It was some slick well orators of deception that brought in the Trinty doctrine. For me, Gibs, I know whom I worship. True, it is not a difficult thing to believe...it takes faith. Hebrews 1:1-13 and Colossians 1:13-20 present some very distinct problems for your perspective, as does John 1:1-14 and John 17:1-5. Each of those passages contain language which portray equality of relationship between distinct manifestations of a plural Deity, which your perspective (simply brush all things into a Father Deity) simply cannot explain sensably. In Hebrews 1, commanding the angels to worship the Son (something only Deity can accept) is commanded blasphemy if the Son is not Deity; worse issues arise if the Son is, indeed, not Deity. As I spoke before, agape love cannot be demonstrated to created beings through a singular Deity. Only if Deity is plural (as supported by the Hebrew) can such love be ultimately demonstrated to created beings as the essence of life. If God is agape (as per 1 John 4:8), then to make the selfless aspect of this love seen and work, there must be Deity who loves (Father), Deity who is loved, and returns a responding love ("beloved", the Son), and a spirit of love between them (Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth), even though all are truly One in the truest sense. This a singular Deity cannot do, and it is this point that tips the balance for me. Saying each is only a presence of the Father, to my understanding, turns agape love between "persons" into the ultimate expression of love for self - which the Bible would define to be sin. Such also fails the ultimate expression of agape as found in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. The Father could be justifiably seen as "seeking His own worship" in commanding angels to worship Himself in the Son; if the Son were Deity in His own right, then the commanding the angels to worship the Son becomes the ultimate expression of selflessness and denial of jealousy/coveting, as I understand the issues to be. Father then becomes worthy to be seated on the highest throne, completely emptied of self. Not even the appearance of selfishness could be seen. As for me...I do believe the redemption of our race could not be possible without the Son of God being fully Deity in His own right. God the Son was sent by God the Father to be joined to the human race for all eternity, so that the dead human race could have its connection to the source of life re-established in the Man, Jesus Christ. It is the only way I can see the image of God (as we were created in - Genesis 1:26,27, and whom Jesus is - Colossians 1:15) could be restored to the human race. It would require the Son to be as emptied of self to be joined to humanity, as it was when the Father commanded angels to worship the Son. That is why I believe they now share a throne - both have fully demonstrated what agape is by their emptiness of self. As for EGW not being "Trinitarian" - that depends on how the word is defined. Did she believe the Catholic definition? No, not that I can see. Did she believe Deity to be plurally expressed in the Scriptures with a Father role, a Son role, and a Holy Spirit role? Most decidedly yes. It is apparent in many of her writings quoted elsewhere in this thread. "Slick orators of deception"? When I weigh the balance of Scriptures (including the ones you quote from your perspective, but I from mine), I must conclude the same could very well be said for the perspective you hold to - slick orators coming in to cause confusion and disarray to the work of the eternal Gospel in these last days...no need for fighting words. As for me...I do believe the redemption of our race could not be possible without the Son of God being fully Deity in His own right. God the Son was sent by God the Father to be joined to the human race for all eternity, so that the dead human race could have its connection to the source of life re-established in the Man, Jesus Christ. It is the only way I can see the image of God (as we were created in - Genesis 1:26,27, and whom Jesus is - Colossians 1:15) could be restored to the human race. It would require the Son to be as emptied of self to be joined to humanity, as it was when the Father commanded angels to worship the Son. That is why I believe they now share a throne - both have fully demonstrated what agape is by their emptiness of self. We must each be convicted by the evidence we understand. You have your perspective; I (and others) have a different understanding. Blessings, brother Gibs Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The Deity, the Father, expresses Himself by Spirit as that is what He is. He came to us in Jesus Christ in Spirit and then Christ made mediator then can dwell in us by the same Spirit. Jesus Christ possessed the Deity of the Father and when it is completed what He is sent forth of the Father to complete, it is returned then to the Father. Read carefully 1 Cor. 15:24-28 and notice when all is said and done the Father is ALL IN ALL finally again. That should light a little glimmer of light I do believe. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Joeb, the following verse answers you, 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. What God? Don't you know his Name, there is only One God, so it is not difficult. EGW was not a trinitarian. Many pull out things to support it but can't be done. It was some slick well orators of deception that brought in the Trinty doctrine. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The Deity, the Father, expresses Himself by Spirit as that is what He is. He came to us in Jesus Christ in Spirit and then Christ made mediator then can dwell in us by the same Spirit. Jesus Christ possessed the Deity of the Father and when it is completed what He is sent forth of the Father to complete, it is returned then to the Father. Read carefully 1 Cor. 15:24-28 and notice when all is said and done the Father is ALL IN ALL finally again. That should light a little glimmer of light I do believe. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. As I demonstrated earlier in this thread, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 does not read to me the same as your reading. I read these verses as having the context and grammar structure of a demonstration of a plural relationship within a plural Deity, not a singular Deity residing within a created being. Too much emphasis is being placed upon a specific phrase, using a construct foreign to the context of that passage, in my understanding. That, to me, signals trouble....but maybe not to you. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Come on Ted, Let's read this again, 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. The end has come, He, Jesus delivers up the Kingdom to the Father. He has put down and taken care of all the power and authority. All that has been in rebellion without doubt. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. He MUST reign until His appointed job is done. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Death will be the last thing destroyed, no more death! 1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. Only the Father is excepted who gave Him this great undertaking. Now we will see He, Jesus, when all is subdued, then He is returned to be subject again to the Father. 1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. He is to reign till all is under His feet, that is now done and so the vestment of the Deity of the Father comes back to Him. No Redeemer is ever be be needed for all eternity. He is ALL in ALL once again after many ages. Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. We all want to see that day! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 1, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 1, 2013 The Deity, the Father, expresses Himself by Spirit as that is what He is. He came to us in Jesus Christ in Spirit and then Christ made mediator then can dwell in us by the same Spirit. Jesus Christ possessed the Deity of the Father and when it is completed what He is sent forth of the Father to complete, it is returned then to the Father. Read carefully 1 Cor. 15:24-28 and notice when all is said and done the Father is ALL IN ALL finally again. That should light a little glimmer of light I do believe. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. The Father was the God in Jesus, the Father is the Spirit, and of course, the Father is the Father - the same person operating in 3 modes, pure and simple, right? The antitrinitarian monotheistic modalism was a heresy that the early church had to contend with. I see that it is still alive today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Come on Ted, Let's read this again, 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. The end has come, He, Jesus delivers up the Kingdom to the Father. He has put down and taken care of all the power and authority. All that has been in rebellion without doubt. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. He MUST reign until His appointed job is done. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Death will be the last thing destroyed, no more death! 1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. Only the Father is excepted who gave Him this great undertaking. Now we will see He, Jesus, when all is subdued, then He is returned to be subject again to the Father. 1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. He is to reign till all is under His feet, that is now done and so the vestment of the Deity of the Father comes back to Him. No Redeemer is ever be be needed for all eternity. He is ALL in ALL once again after many ages. Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. We all want to see that day! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. You seem to be operating under the fallacy that if you repeat something S.....L....O....W......L......Y, it might change my mind. The truth be told, Gibs, reference what Gerry just said above: this is a subject the early church had to face - before the Papacy grew to power. The Gnostics also taught such a view of God...and were wrong. As I said above - it is extremely difficult to deny the Deity of God the Son without ultimately reaching the heresy of the Gnostics or that of Arius as the logical conclusion to your argument. For me, I am convinced the true Biblical view of Deity is not a "monotheistic modal model", nor do I think the Biblical view is what the RCC has historically taught to its adherents as the "Trinity" I know you think the "Trinity" is a Catholic teaching infiltrating the SDA church, but I do think that is a straw man argument. I will respect your right to disagree with my perspective. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 If the Deity of Christ is not the Deity of the Father in Him He would have no Deity Ted. He the Father is the only Deity there is and will ever be. Trinitarians make Christ one without Deity as they see another God and there is none. Jesus was the man the Father come in. It was Yahweh Redeemer before Bethlehem that came in Jesus. He was not a born being or a created being or a formed being! He postitively is the Fathers extension sent forth of Himself in His Redeemer. How else could Jesus claim "I am the first". Only one way, He and the Father are one as He tells you and you will not believe Him so I guess for sure you will not believe me. Paul tells you God, yes the Father was in Christ, 2 Cor 5:19 and you won't believe him. Jesus tells Philip, you've seen me you've seen the Father, and you won't believe that. You have to see by Spirit, His Spirit must be in you or you don't see Him in Jesus. No Philip didn't see Him physically as He is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God not another God. There is but one God and scripture is adamant about that. There is not a trinity of Gods. There is but ONE that is God and that is the Father ONLY, He is the Holy Spirit, He alone could be in Christ. In Christ the Father was with us covered with humanity, the body prepared Him. That body was the son of Mary and the Son of God in a union with the Father of which we can not fully comphrehend. Emmanuel, God with us. Only the Father is God. The Father is not ALL IN ALL here yet and notice this verse, Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Jesus goes to the one He is of and who sent Him. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me . You forget God is the Holy Spirit and is not limited in any way shape or form. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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