i SO wish they would quit saying this...

[Restin]

I wish the pastors, leaders, and such, would quit using Sister White's comment that when the church perfectly reflects the character of Jesus, He will come. I guess they say it to goad all the church members to hurry up and become perfect, or Jesus can't come back here the second time. But I find that statement so discouraging I can hardly endure it.

[Guest]

:)

[Gail]

Restin!!! So good to see you again!

I wish that when pastors quote that they would a good idea as to what that means, to inspire the members to look at Christ instead of turning away in discouragement.

We needn't worry about our performance any further than taking it to God for help. While self-reflection is helpful, there is nothing we can do to be perfect. All our efforts are tainted with sin. BUT we have a Saviour! His blood not only covers our imperfection but when we give Him the problem and ask for help, He is faithful to help us.

As the Holy Spirit brings to our minds the sinfulness of sin, He will also bring us to Jesus.

Do not despair!

[Ellen]

Good answer Gail. God is looking for perfect motives and intentions, even though our actions don't always measure up to God's perfect standard, He knows our hearts.

-That's why we have detailed stories of David, for instance, how imperfect can one man be, but there is no doubt his heart was perfect.

[Gail]

Exactly, Ellen! It is the HEART that is in question. That is why I love those accounts of Mary with the perfume or Rahab lying in order to save the Hebrew spies. The motives were godly even if the means were faulty. They were equally blessed.

[Gail]

So... What do we do when our motives are not good? I would venture to say, Bring those also to Jesus.

What else can we do?

[Gail]

One last thought:

When Jesus deals with me, He does it gently. He is so much easier on me than others are, or than I am on others. THAT is what I would like pastors to say more than just what is referred to in the opening post and leaving it at that.

[Woody]

Restin -

The Good News is that whatever in the world that needs to be done - is not our concern. Whatever it is: IT's GOD's JOB to do it.

[debbym]

i do not take this in anyway a burden to then make this perfect reflection happen, and see how i am measuring up.

i see this as something to give me hope when the world will be in it's final throes.

time will become more and more difficult, and we will be hated and tested, and our faith stretched and exercised more and more.

so when i am in this ordeal, it will be a source of great encouragement to know that God is doing something in me, and when he is finished, then Jesus will come. To Know God is working to bring glory to His Character through me, as he did with Jesus, will mean much then. We are participating in the vindication of the Character of God. I am so aware it is a work that God is doing. Yes we accept it, and exercise our faith, but God is bringing His purposes about not me.

debjm

[Restin]

As always, it helps so much to come here with my questions. Sometimes I get stuck on some topic that doesn't make sense to me, but here have the chance to review it from the viewpoint of others knowledgable in the SDA faith. I like the idea of "perfect motives and intentions" in my relation to Jesus.

When I hear this comment of Sister White (very frequently BTW) my conclusion is that it means Jesus can never come, or at least not another hundred years or so, by the looks of things!

[Gail]

Well, the good news is that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. HE is promised to be the one that does that in us, and not we ourselves.

I think that is a GREAT gift to look forward to!

[debbym]

Yes, It is the work of God in us, but we are to work with God in receiving this experience.

God will not violate our will, he will not impose His Character on us. and it is not an easy or natural thing for us to be like Him.

debbym

[JoeMo]

I respectfully disagree debbym. I think turning our lives over to Jesus is the most easy thing in the world, but we make it hard. Whenver we are under the illusion that we can somehow personally "contribute" to our own salvation or make ourselves more worthy (beyond simply believing in and surrenduring to Jesus), we run into the problem of wondering if the can ever be good enough. We can never be good enough; and it is so difficult insisting to ourselves that we overcome and achieve anything by our own (by our own effort). Like the song says, Jesus paid it all! All to Him I owe! By surrounding ourselves with His presence and taking in the exceedingly abundant grace (unmerited favor)that He so freely offers, we receive not only forgiveness of sins, but supernatural power to overcome any barriers between us and our Redeemer. It's all Him! This is a "no-quote" zone,

or I would post pages of scripture to show this. Just read Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, and Hebrews with the mindset that "God is for me; His grace is all-sufficient". Your spiritual battle is to trust in Him and rest in Him. He is God - He is perfectly able to win the battle agaist evil without our help. That doesn't mean that He won't use us. But how He uses us is up to Him - not us.

[debbym]

i am not referring to some kind of struggle to become right with God. Every religion that is righteous by works based is truly teaching this. This is what Martin Luther stopped doing when he began his war against error, and proclaimed righteousness by faith. The Christianity of his day was profoundly operating on righteousness by works, and yes that was a painful ordeal for those torturing themselves and fearfully buying favors and praying the dead out of purgatory.

Yet there is a struggle against sin even unto death. God does discipline his own. it is not a cakewalk to be a Christian and hold your ground for Christ. Meeting the enemy everyday with a thus says the Lord is interesting not because we have to work so hard, but because there is an enemy working against our connection to heaven. A greater faith is demanded everyday. and growing faith is not a party. Yes we deepen our praise to God, and our joy, and our love and obedience, but it is not for the compromising.

God's will crosses our natural selfish will. If self sacrifice is no sacrifice, then it is not a sacrifice. Apostle Paul loved God and rejoiced to suffer for Christ, but he did not deny the struggle with the natural heart.

if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

It is not the blessing we receive that we have. It is the blessings we hold onto when the enemy works to remove them from us, that we have.

when we keep trusting when our child is perishing, when I am fired for Sabbath keeping, when my spouse is unfaithful, when I am taken to court under false accusation, or win the lottery and all my earthly dreams come true, when I am hated because I live for God's glory... this is not a cakewalk. When your faith endures everything because of God has said you can, in his word, you will understand your dependency on His word. I don't think submission to God by faith and crossing our natural inclinations is a light matter.

We are workers together with God, just like the gardener. Yes God brings the increase, but he blesses our labors. He asks us to plant and weed and bring water, but all the miracle of life and growing is God's part. God wants us to share with him in the labor for our blessing.

I don't do what God has asked me to do because what Jesus has done is not enough, i do what he asks me to do because what Jesus has done is enough, and makes it possible. God's unlimited favor does not include his saving me in sin, But saving me from sin.

and yes, i am debjm, my debjm account got lost when my computer died and i am on another pc. sorry i didn't mention it before, i am tech challenged.

debbym

[Gail]

Yes, I agree with that. In our communion with God He does ask us to do some hard things. He shows us things in our lives that we need to make right, like the way we treat someone or make restitution for something or give up an idol. Self argues!

In Hebrews 12 the author says, "in your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood". Jesus did just that. That shows me that sin has not become as repugnant to me yet that it was to Him. It is coming, and it is this work that God is doing in me along the way.

It is a wonderful work that the Lord does in us!

[JoeMo]

Your right - walking in faith is not a cakewalk - mostly because powerful evil spiritual influences are constantly thown our way to discourage us. The hardest thing for us to do is to try to fight that battle alone and naked. I sometimes forget that God provides the perfect armor for this battle. We need it! We're not just fighting against men - we're fighting against powerful spiritual forcrs in dark places!

Ahhh, debbym and debjm are the same person - that explains a lot! I was wondering over the coincidence that 2 members named deb could write such eloquent and spiritually rich posts.

Bottom line - we're pretty much on the same page.

[OzarkWoman]

That is the one thing I like about mu church. They don't harp on EGW, or even bring her up very much. I am glad about that.

[Woody]

Yes. Praise the Lord OzarkWoman that more of our churches are abiding by the wishes of our prophet and not quoting her from the pulpit.

[only by grace]

people that use this quote from sister White doesn't understand that as Christians we are all ready perfect. We are just in different stages of that perfection. Some still drink milk but the more mature ones have added more solid food to their spiritual diet.

[debbym]

Joemo,

You are certainly generous in your affirmations, Thank-you.

and i see you are highly motivated in your walk.

yes the conflict really is not between people, there are two much higher beings in conflict, we are really the battlefield.

If i could just remember this as i look around me each day, and realize every person i see is part of the battle field.

deb

[JoeMo]

To "see" what God is doing, we must "practice" His Presence. IMO this doesn't mean praying all the time; just practicing keeping Him in out thoughts. What works best for me is listening to Christian music on the radio in my car (I commute about 2.5 hours per day); leading praise music and team-teaching a Sabbath School containing folks that don't like the quarterlies. It's a real challenge to come up with worthwhile lessons from scratch.

I digress. Anyhow, I find that by trying to see what God is doing rather than what He is NOT doing; so I can do what He is blessing rather than ask Him to bless what I am doing.

[debbym]

To see what God is doing is to look through the eyes of faith.

To keep exercising faith though the day is a choice. God is growing our faith. But he wants us to experience the blessing of working with Him. Faith does get stronger as we exercise what faith he is giving us.

Yes! it is important to work with God rather then work against God and then ask his blessing.

debbym

[Ted Oplinger]

People wishing for perfection to be evidenced in every aspect of their - and others' - lives, use this quote, little realizing the work to make this possible Christ has already completed and made available. Yet, they are too familiar with battling the flesh themselves, with just enough help from God to make them feel good about their walk.The Bible says it is looking to, and staying focused on, Christ is what purifies us - not our efforts to "hurry up and get ready".

Deep down, I think this is what EGW was referring to at all in reference to our characters' completion and reflection of Christ - getting focused on and trusting Christ completely. The church - and individuals - to perfectly reflect His character is God's province of work. Ours is to trust it can be so.

On the one hand, I do know we are holding back - and we need to let go, and trust God to put in place the full testimony of Christ as evidence of His repeating the same victory as He had when He walked among us.

On the other, I do see the need to encourage those around me not to focus on perfection, as that is God's province, but to progress in trust Christ and His testimony.

I see us as humans trapped between Satan's lie - that the flesh, with all its imperfections, cannot be overcome by any means in our lives here on earth - and Christ's testimony, which says it can be. We waver between the two...not wanting to believe the lie, but too afraid to let go and fully trust the Word to make the impossible real and tangible. So...we go hide behind the trees, metaphorically...just like Adam and Eve.

I am thankful Christ patiently keeps calling to us, knowing exactly where we are. I believe it makes Him sad we take such pitifully tiny steps in life - but He is overjoyed that, even with such tiny steps, we are moving toward Him. That is the most important point!

He is waiting, though, on enough people willing to take that small step of trust in His Word, which will result in a true giant leap for all mankind.

Blessings,

[Gail]

Iron Deacon, I SO appreciate your words of encouragement and wisdom here!

Basically it boils down to this: If you look at yourself or anyone else you WILL be disappointed. We need to take everything to our Heavenly Father, who loves us with an everlasting love. He brings us along much more gently than the lessons that life gives.

[JoeMo]

TED and GAIL,

Amen to you two posts immediately above. Words written through the wisdom of the Spirit.