Moderators lazarus Posted February 5, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 5, 2013 About everything. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted February 5, 2013 Administrators Share Posted February 5, 2013 Intriguing thought! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I always tell people, I will not know if I'm wrong only if I'm right! So mean while I will continue to live in the best way possible, what is there to lose!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted February 5, 2013 Administrators Share Posted February 5, 2013 So, what if that is a possibility, what is the best thing to do? Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Lazarus, Wrong about "everything" is too broad for me to wrap my head around. If you mean "everything"; it's like were living the "The Matrix". I can't even conceive of the impacts that would have. If you're limiting that we are wrong about the spiritual realm, I'd rather be wrong living under the assumption that there is an all-powerful loving personal God that wants us to live with Him forever than be wrong living under the assumption that there is no God - and therefore no "absolute moral code" )whatever that might be). If we are wrong about everything, do you have any ideas about what an alternate or seperate reality might look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 5, 2013 Members Share Posted February 5, 2013 Excellent question/thought Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 6, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2013 There is no point in having an alternative ideas because they would be wrong too!. Everything means everything. Even the idea about being wrong about everything could be wrong! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 [ I took the red pill 27 years ago..... Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 I for one will not say "I told you so" (out loud) Thats a great question Laz. I would say that there are definitely things the SDA church is wrong about, Christianity as a whole. But on the same token there are things that every religion has got wrong and there are things that every religion has right. I had a great conversation with someone last night about this. What it comes down to is that everything we have to work with is filtered through a human perspective. Hard as we may try, using whatever means we use, that perspective is still at the bare minimum somewhat clouded by ego and personal agenda.With that comes misinformation. To answer Gails question of what to do if thats the case - go with what your heart and soul tells you is right. As I have mentioned a couple dozen times before - I believe there are a lot of paths leading up the same mountain. Seek your truth with honesty and purity and you will find that the path you are on is the one you are supposed to be on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Noah probably had days where he asked himself that question. So also John the baptizer. And possibly others just before they lost their life for standing firm on some point of Bible truth. Not so unthinkable that the question would have come up for those giving their lives to spread the gospel. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 7, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2013 His grace shall be sufficient to see us through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted February 7, 2013 Administrators Share Posted February 7, 2013 When you realize a truth that reveals your error(s), it just deepens your humility and capacity to be kind and merciful to others. debbym Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Adventist doctrine is always under attack. As a result I find myself wondering sometimes is this all true? I always come to the realization that it is. SDA put forth the best argument, from the bible and from history of what's happening in this world, especially from a spiritual point of view. Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 7, 2013 Administrators Share Posted February 7, 2013 This is a conundrum that turns Descartes defining idea that our existence is confirmed by the fact that we think. What if Descartes was wrong? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 What if Descartes said,"I think, therefore I am, I think." Those two added last words would change the entire thrust of his statement. If Descartes was wrong, maybe we "aren't"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 8, 2013 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2013 Exactly. Then it may be that we exist without a thought... I know people like that, very thoughtless. And maybe what we process in our head isn't really thinking. Or possible not our thoughts, but echoes of another reality. We are just passive mirrors of an existence not our own. Or maybe a highly programed interactive 3-D hologram in Sim City. But I could be wrong. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 So did Ahab, and Wilde Coyote , but there's no solid reason that either of these characters are real. Referencing arguably fictional characters that faced the same questions does not really help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Nope Tom - You're right. I sometimes think that I am the only sentient creature on the planet; and everything and everyone else - past, present and future - was planned out for my education and utter amazement. I am living in a sophisticated 3-D video game where two players (one good and one evil)from a different universe are simply manipulating me to record my response to various and sundry stimuli. Thanks you all for playing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 fcool, I prophecy an edit coming to your post soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 The question that I always asked, what if Christianity is just a "test" ? I know it may sound odd, but what if quite the opposite than what you think? What if it's not for salvation, but for damnation? Christianity and Islam are very ego-centric religions if you really think about these. It claims to be unselfish, but it's not. The proof of it is not very easily pinpointed to anyone who is wrapped around the "motivational factors", but let's just dissect the central part of it by looking at the same "judge-executioner" scenario. You are condemned to die. The judge in the courtroom condemns you to death. Another person who is innocent comes along and says - "I'm willing to suffer and die instead of this person, only if he accepts my gift to him". The judge says "fine with me... do you accept this guy's gift of life to you?" If you say that you do, then you are one of the most selfish and immoral person on the planet. If you were in for murder, then you've cause the death of two people by means of your crime without actually fixing anything. You who are criminal will go free. Two people who did not deserve to die are now dead. Even if you are touched by this act, and it turns you into a better person, then how could you sleep at night... knowing that this happened? You are not a "good person" merely by very nature of accepting such atrocity to escape death. Thus, the very act of accepting the "substitution atonement" is an incredibly selfish act. How can a relationship and knowledge of true God can begin with such a vile act of incredible selfishness? So, back to the question - what if it's quite the opposite. What if Christianity is a test you have to pass, along with many other tests of human integrity that you run into along the road. Can true God ask you to lie to yourself? Can he demand you to fool yourself into "knowing something" without actually knowing anything? That's the conclusion that I came up with. We are not here to "serve" God. You will only end up being slave to a religious order that will use and abuse you for whatever "cause from God" they decide is correct. How can you "serve" God that you've never experienced outside of a possibly fictional book that demands you to convince yourselves to interpret everything that's happening around you through it's own filtered worldview... in such a way that the book is never at fault - but you are . True God would never write such book IMO. It's a direct road to worshiping the book itself, and using it to justify just about anything through piecing few of the passages together. The real question is - do you believe what you do because it's an attractive believe? Do you believe it because you want to believe it? After all, Christianity paints a very attractive picture that people would want. But, what if it's an integrity test? What if it's a test between what you want (selfishly), and what is true and better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted February 8, 2013 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2013 Of course we can live in any philosophy or belief system in a narcissistic or egocentric manner, or we can live in any belief system in an unselfish manner. self centeredness is a developmental issue. it has to do with growing or not growing beyond our self interest. so people who are born into christian belief may for some various reasons become stuck in their childishness, and remain very young developmentally. or people who are born into atheism be also remain very immature. or we may grow beyond ourselves whatever our circumstances of birth or choice of religion or non religion. you do not have to become Christian to walk into heaven, you just have to love as Christ loved. And the Holy Spirit is there at every heart in this world, to lift anyone who is willing to be lifted at any moment in time, beyond their self interest, to love as Christ loved. there is something about showing interest in the needs of others, and even being accounted as doing this to Christ himself, and it is not the religious who are honored and rewarded\ for doing this. it is anyone who does it. i think every circumstance and choice we make is a test. i love being radical. debbym formerly debjm which account is now defunct due to technical difficulty. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 The men in those nice white suits have come, JoeMo - they are saying to put the controller down, step away from the console/TV, and take the red pill.... Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobiwan Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I feel it is not so much If we are wrong, (Though I did have my senior pastor tell me this last sabbath that God will punish me for as long as I deserve, if I make the wrong choice) You know "Choose ye ..." but choose wisely! The big question: Is there a God, and what is He/She like. The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan not between adventist and any other group should be our focus. Lucifers's opinion changed, and he thought he could do a better job. There were no doubt factions in his group who thought the same about their ability to rule in place of Lucifer. Christ and the Bible stories (when we dig and search below the surface) show us what God is like. His faithfulness, His love, His Mercy, His persistence in the many way He tries to show these characteristics to us, and much much more, was and is the the work of Christ. The being we call Christ worked very hard to show what God is like. He planted a garden for us, (every thing was good) water in the desert, angels food, visible evidence of His presence, wisdom beyond His years from exposure to the stories in the OT, healing and life restoration (not after the fashion of a lottery) (first in the Pool) . Christ says and demonstrates that He accepts responsibility for giving us the gift of choice. Christ invites us to be like Him, the record says we are (were) created in His image. He says He is coming back for us. It's recorded that He gave us a very simple job. That job is to tell the whole world the gospel (good news) about what God is like. In your words and deeds tell and show He is just like Me. Christ asks us to trust him and if we trust Him He will save us from all that causes us to ask or think about asking the question of this post. You ask, What if we are wrong? If we are wrong we will never know. What do we loose by trying to follow the example of Christ? Being like Christ is never wrong, and we loose nothing of value in our attempts. What do we loose? NOT A STINKING THING!!!!!!!! We are distracted though by measuring our success by taking a census on the result of our labor. I feel our focus is diverted from our "prime directive" of telling and showing.We are to busy counting. Leave the counting to the count. After all, Elijah was off by a factor of 7K. We may be wrong in our focus, but we need to always remember and never forget, He is Right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobiwan Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I used to have the same thoughts and questions. For a long time I thanked God over and over again for taking the beating that i deserved because of my sin. Using the wage concept from Romans 6:23 ... we think or conclude from this that,wages are paid by the boss and when you don't like the wages you go to the boss and ask for an adjustment or change or tell the boss he can keep his wage. Someone showed me a translation of this (maybe TEV) that present this [idea as sin paying a wage that is death]. To me this concept changes everything. Jesus did not come to rescue me from an angry God. Jesus came and comes to offer healing and the gift of life. He was made to be sin to show us and the universe the wage that sin pays, and to offer the gift that God gives. [God loves.] He gives. He did not send as if saying (you go, not me) Jesus volunteered, took a risk to show and to save us. If the record is wrong, but we do as asked, we will never know we were wrong and we loose nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 8, 2013 Members Share Posted February 8, 2013 Excellent, excellent post Tobiwan Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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