Left Or Right

[Nicodema]

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Ed Dickerson said:

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Some of us think for ourselves to arrive at a viewpoint, and don't appreciate having it assumed we swallowed it from some politician, think tank, or media outlet.

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(1) I see, and the rest of us? Does it refer to anyone specific who is "not thinking for him/herself," or is it a "blanket attack"?

(2) Just trying to understand your standards.

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(1) It is neither. It is an observation. Some of us -- myself and those for whom the shoe fits -- don't appreciate this (having it assumed we swallowed a personal position or POV from some politician, think tank, or media outlet).

And then, just to confuse matters further, there are those in this world who don't think for themselves and don't appreciate having it pointed out. Sometimes it is difficult to tell one class from another -- another reason why IMO the labels don't work.

(2) I honestly doubt that. To me you appear to have quite a different and distinct agenda.

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I see, and these are not attacks? I shall keep that in mind.

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No, they are not. They are legitimate observations of a pattern of human behavior. If you read an attack into them, as I see it, that's your eisegesis.

[there buster]

I have learned much. I shall be careful always to make only "observations" in the future.

[Nicodema]

Good. Now maybe if you could "learn" not to be snide, not to first pick others apart and then put them down subtly with sarcastic, unctuous comments, you might find the royal road to real dialogue.

[Neil D]

I, too, was going to say something about that, but I thought I would let someone else voice it. So, Ed, here are at least 2 people who have problems with your style of posting. I have said this before, and I will say it again...If you ever decide to change your style, you could have some quite interesting dialogue and still be friends with a lot of people whom you would agree and disagree with.

You could be like ....Bravus..... !!!!!!!

[Nicodema]

Now maybe we can get back on topic to discussing the use of labels? I haven't really heard any good arguments yet for their use. I've seen attempts at good arguments, such as (1) convenience of communication; (2) calling something by it's "right" name, but the intellectual laziness which accompanies #1 and the arbitrariness of definition coupled with the differences in individual use of #2 lead us right back to square one: no salient argument in favor of them that I can see.

[there buster]

Your criteria, and how they are applied, are increasingly clear.

[Nicodema]

LOL. Whatever. All that is "clear" to you is your judgment about that -- not truth or reality.

Your judgment about my "criteria" is the only thing increasingly clear here. And it is a fallacious one.

Now move on. Find something else to do and someone else to annoy. This gratuitous display of public obsession makes you look rather ridiculous.

[Nicodema]

People who accuse you of doing what they themselves are doing when you try to ask them not to do it anymore are truly the most annoying vexation this world has to offer.

[Ron Lambert]

Funny how people who are accused of being conservative usually do not object (so long as no disparaging adjectives are included), while people who are accused of being liberals get all bent out of shape, and start preaching sermons about how we should not apply labels to anyone. Apparently a part of being a liberal is wearing your heart on your sleeve. Liberals certainly seem to think that being called a liberal is an insult. Why is it that "liberal" has become a pejorative term? Could it be because the liberal outlook has been proven wrong so often, the vast majority of people have come to be disgusted with it?

[Nicodema]

Ron, I think it's just like I said above: some people are independent thinkers and just don't like having a blanket label applied to them. Stop and think about it. Some of us would like to have meaningful dialogue with others even who disagree, but once a label gets pulled out, the potential for that stops. The term "liberal" has only become a perjorative among "conservatives", so when seeking to dialogue with a conservative, hearing that word from their lips or pen signals the end of the discussion, because if a "conservative" has applied that label, he or she has stopped listening with an open mind, stopped considering there might be anything valid to what the person is saying.

p.s. THANK YOU for bringing this thread back on topic.

[Bravus]

at least one proud liberal over here... <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Bravus]

...to the extent that the label means anything. As far as I'm concerned, my 'liberal' stance includes, for example, the idea that each abortion is a tragedy, and abortion should therefore be legal, safe and very rare, replaced by far better social support systems including excellent adoption systems that will put unplanned babies in loving homes.

See, this is exactly the problem: if I accept the 'liberal' banner without qualification, I might be assumed to be all about 'a woman's right to choose' anywhere anytime easily, when I'm not.

[Ron Lambert]

The fact is that there is a scale, or perhaps two-dimensional graph of positions ranging from liberal to conservative. Everyone is somewhere on that graph. No one is at a pure extreme. But virtually no one is at the exact center, either. If you are left of center, at least in the position you are taking on an issue at the moment, you are a liberal at that moment on that issue.

Nicodema, it is liberals who pretend that no one else is thinking independently. They refuse to believe that people can intelligently come to differenct conclusions than they do. This is part of what feeds the manifest intolerance of liberals, so that they judge something like Fox News to be biased just because it gives publicity to the conservative viewpoint along with the liberal.

[Bravus]

Yeah, I guess the point is that a single scale is too simplistic an image: perhaps a set of sliding scales on different issues. Or perhaps, as you suggest, it's not sensible to label a person overall as a 'liberal' or a 'conservative', but only to say 'your position on abortion is centrist but your position on public funding of education is liberal'. That's pretty much what I've been trying to suggest is sensible all along...

[Dr. Shane]

Liberals tend to believe that government can be used for good to help the people.

Conservatives tend to fear the government as intrusive and want limited government.

There is nothing wrong or evil about either position. Issue by issue it varies. In the case of abortion most conservatives want more govenment control and most liberals want less.

However there are extreames and in my opinion that is where the problem areas are. There are extreame liberals and radical conservatives.

[Nicodema]

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Ron Lambert said:

Nicodema, it is liberals who pretend that no one else is thinking independently. They refuse to believe that people can intelligently come to differenct conclusions than they do.

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Precisely why I personally eschew the label. While I don't deny at times it is all to obvious to me that someone is "regurgitating" from what they have been spoon-fed by some rabid right-wing politico, pundit or preacher, I have also at times heard intelligent, interesting arguments and ideas from conservative folk evincing independent thought. I recognize both classes exist, and I allow that both classes exist on the other end of the spectrum as well. I've seen people spew on both ends and I've seen people exhibit intelligent, rational thought on both ends.

But what you said about "liberals" could just as easily be said about the "conservative" who labels everyone with whom he disagrees a "liberal" and thinks they are merely regurgitating what he considers "liberal thought." It can happen at either end of the spectrum.

[NormF]

Shane, I don't know if it's something I missed before or I'm seeing something new in you now, but I could learn to like dialoging in the context you've just set up. The beginnings of a happier environment are in that. Well said.

Regards,

Norm