Did Pope Resign To Avoid Arrest, Seizure of Wealth

[Bravus]

Not trying to either express doubt or plant seeds. Just pointing out that these statements of yours are very easily tested. It will take another 4 years to find out about Obama (or maybe less, if the Second Coming intervenes), but only a couple of weeks to go on the pope issue.

My question is: what happens if you are wrong? Will you accept that? Or will you find a way that means you were right after all.

*That* is the issue that interests me.

[BobRyan]

International Common Law Court of Justice, The Vatican

Pope Benedict resigned to avoid arrest, seizure of church wealth by Easter

Posted on February 13, 2013 by itccs

Diplomatic Note was issued to Vatican just prior to his resignation

New Pope and Catholic clergy face indictment and arrest as "Easter Reclamation" plan continues

A Global Media Release and Statement from The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State

Brussels:

The historically unprecedented resignation of Joseph Ratzinger as Pope this week was compelled by an upcoming action by a European government to issue an arrest warrant against Ratzinger and a public lien against Vatican property and assets by Easter.

The ITCCS Central Office in Brussels is compelled by Pope Benedict's sudden abdication to disclose the following details:

1. On Friday, February 1, 2013, on the basis of evidence supplied by our affiliated Common Law Court of Justice (itccs.org), our Office concluded an agreement with representatives of a European nation and its courts to secure an arrest warrant against Joseph Ratzinger, aka Pope Benedict, for crimes against humanity and ordering a criminal conspiracy.

2. This arrest warrant was to be delivered to the office of the "Holy See" in Rome on Friday, February 15, 2013. It allowed the nation in question to detain Ratzinger as a suspect in a crime if he entered its sovereign territory.

[hch]

Not trying to either express doubt or plant seeds. Just pointing out that these statements of yours are very easily tested. It will take another 4 years to find out about Obama (or maybe less, if the Second Coming intervenes), but only a couple of weeks to go on the pope issue.

My question is: what happens if you are wrong? Will you accept that? Or will you find a way that means you were right after all.

*That* is the issue that interests me.

Bravus,

It is good that you did not have an evil intent, but the consequences of thinking aloud though unintended may be the same.

I welcome testing my statements. They are based on my study of the Scriptures. But I am mortal and I can and do make mistakes. Thus if found in error, I will repent and change my ways by the grace of God. And I would hope for the same from the brethren.

But if we take the wait and see attitude, then we become like those in the Days of Noe. They did not know when to go into the ark. Or the 5 foolish Virgins that waited too long to replenish their oil supply. The outcome in both situations was less than desirable for many.

You ask: "What happens if you are wrong? Will you accept that? Or will you find a way that means you were right after all."

What happened when the Adventist pioneers were wrong in 1843 & 1844? Did they accept being wrong or did they seek to discover their error and correct their course as God directed? Should I do less?

But Bravus, what happens if you are wrong? Will you accept that? Or will you find a way that means you were right after all?

The 6,000-years for sin to run its course is coming to its conclusion. The last US president identified in Bible prophecy is in office. The last pope identified in Revelation 17 just resigned, preparing the way for Satan to make his appearance. And folks wonder what will I do if I am wrong?

Oh that the spirit of the Bereans would prevail and do away with the Laodicean attitude that knows so much that they won't look beyond their comfort zone.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: John317

International Common Law Court of Justice, The Vatican

Pope Benedict resigned to avoid arrest, seizure of church wealth by Easter

Posted on February 13, 2013 by itccs

Diplomatic Note was issued to Vatican just prior to his resignation

New Pope and Catholic clergy face indictment and arrest as "Easter Reclamation" plan continues

A Global Media Release and Statement from The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State

Brussels:

The historically unprecedented resignation of Joseph Ratzinger as Pope this week was compelled by an upcoming action by a European government to issue an arrest warrant against Ratzinger and a public lien against Vatican property and assets by Easter.

The ITCCS Central Office in Brussels is compelled by Pope Benedict's sudden abdication to disclose the following details:

1. On Friday, February 1, 2013, on the basis of evidence supplied by our affiliated Common Law Court of Justice (itccs.org), our Office concluded an agreement with representatives of a European nation and its courts to secure an arrest warrant against Joseph Ratzinger, aka Pope Benedict, for crimes against humanity and ordering a criminal conspiracy.

2. This arrest warrant was to be delivered to the office of the "Holy See" in Rome on Friday, February 15, 2013. It allowed the nation in question to detain Ratzinger as a suspect in a crime if he entered its sovereign territory.

Interesting.

Quote:

The International Court of Justice (French: Cour internationale de Justice; commonly referred to as the World Court or ICJ) is the primary judicial organ of the United Nations. It is based in the Peace Palace in The Hague, the Netherlands. Its main functions are to settle legal disputes submitted to it by states and to provide advisory opinions on legal questions submitted to it by duly authorised international organs, agencies, and the UN General Assembly

Thanks for sharing Bob,

This has been discussed on other forums. The ITCCS has not had a stellar rating for accurate reporting in the past, but as bits and pieces are being confirmed by other sources, it appears that the charges filed about a year ago by the victims of the priests' abuse scandal are the root cause for Benedict's sudden inability to bear the burden of the papal office. And it gives credence to the thought that the college of cardinals will not elect a new pope (at least while Benedict is alive).

Thus to understand Revelation 17 to be about the papacy (beast) with its 7 popes (heads) from 1929 through 2013 (Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I & II, and Benedict continues to fit the historical fulfillment.

And we will do well to study to see how Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves and to adjust our view of prophecy as needed rather than to become entrenched in what we thought before more light came on the subject.

Blessings

[Bravus]

Quote:

But Bravus, what happens if you are wrong? Will you accept that? Or will you find a way that means you were right after all?

If Jesus comes before another pope is elected, I will know I'm wrong and happily acknowledge it (though I doubt we'll be posting here). It'd be pretty tough to ignore that. But yeah, changing our ideas based on the evidence is part of personal integrity.

[OzarkWoman]

Pretty easy empirical test: if a new pope is elected in the next little while, he was wrong.

(of course, there are *always* ad hoc tweaks that can be used to 'save' a 'prophecy')

Actually Malachi listed the last Pope as Peter the Roman.

[Bravus]

Yes, sorry, I misspoke. It would be hch, not Malachy, who would have some 'splainin' to do.

[BobRyan]

This has been discussed on other forums. The ITCCS has not had a stellar rating for accurate reporting in the past, but as bits and pieces are being confirmed by other sources, it appears that the charges filed about a year ago by the victims of the priests' abuse scandal are the root cause for Benedict's sudden inability to bear the burden of the papal office. And it gives credence to the thought that the college of cardinals will not elect a new pope (at least while Benedict is alive).

Thus to understand Revelation 17 to be about the papacy (beast) with its 7 popes (heads) from 1929 through 2013 (Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I & II, and Benedict continues to fit the historical fulfillment.

And we will do well to study to see how Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves and to adjust our view of prophecy as needed rather than to become entrenched in what we thought before more light came on the subject.

Blessings

Well we should know in about two weeks whether that idea continues to be one of the options.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Pretty easy empirical test: if a new pope is elected in the next little while, he was wrong.

(of course, there are *always* ad hoc tweaks that can be used to 'save' a 'prophecy')

Actually Malachi listed the last Pope as Peter the Roman.

Indeed Malachy - but digging into that a bit more there is an odd "feature" to that Malachi Martin story.

Apparently it was first published in around 1590A.D. and contains a list supposedly written by Malachi in 1129 (or around that time). The list is "apparently" pretty close to actual history if you look at events prior to 1590 but has a hit-and-miss level accuracy afterwards "as if" the 1590 version was the real source/origin.

in any case - we are well beyond both 1130 and 1590 so we will see what happens next.

in Christ,

Bob

[Textus Receptus]

The bible provides critera of what constitutes a prophet. Unfortnately, I don't believe that Malachy would fall into this category. Treading on dangerous ground if we do not apply the word of God.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Proverbs 3:5

If God communicates His intention through His servants the prophets, and Satan counterfeits the messages of God through false prophets, then it is vital that we test the prophets to see if the message is indeed from God. On one hand, the Scriptures admonish us to "Despise not prophesyings" (1 Thessalonians 5:2) and to "Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper" (2 Chronicles 20:20).

On the other hand, there are warnings against false prophets:

For false christs and false prophets will rise and will show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24 NKJV).

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1 NKJV).

False prophets claim to have dreams and to see visions, so the Scriptures must provide criteria whereby the authenticity of the prophets' statements may be tested.

Do not despise prophecies, test all things; hold fast what is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 NKJV).

The Bible lists a series of tests that can be applied to prophets to determine whether they are genuine or not. Many of these tests can be individually counterfeited, but collectively, they provide an impassable barrier to false prophets. False prophets can quote Scripture or have some of their prophecies come true, but they can still be false prophets—subtly using every opportunity to lead God's people astray.

A true prophet of God will meet all the Biblical criteria, which can be summarized as follows:

1. A true prophet's message will be in complete harmony with the word of God and the law of God.

To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20).

Most modern-day prophets would fail this test. A prophet cannot negate what God has revealed in His Word, and all the precepts of the law are binding (James 2:10). When the law is not observed, the gift of prophecy is withdrawn (Lamentations 2:9).

2. A true prophet's predictions must come to pass.

...when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:22 NKJV).

A word of warning: A prophet's predictions may occur, and may even be accompanied by miracles. But if they do not pass the other tests, the prophet is still false.

If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying 'Let us go after other gods'—which you have not known—and let us serve them, you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him (Deuteronomy 13:1-4 NKJV).

Signs and wonders do not prove a prophet's validity. As in the above Scriptural example, prophets' words are not always in harmony with the law of God. Satan will work miracles in the last days to deceive many (Revelation 16:14).

3. A true prophet prophesies to edify the Church, counseling and advising in religious matters.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification and exhortation, and comfort...but he that prophesieth edifieth the church (1 Corinthians 14:3-4).

A true prophet will not condone sin (1 John 3:4).

True prophets will exhort the church to a higher standard, and will exemplify God's principles in their own lives. False prophets, such as 16th-century seer Nostradamus, do not live according to God's Word and do not build up the Church with their prophecies.

4. A true prophet will exalt Christ as the Son of God and the Saviour of humankind.

No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us...Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God (1 John 4:12,15 NKJV).

After His resurrection, Jesus expounded the Scriptures to His disciples, revealing to them the prophetic proclamations regarding Himself (Luke 24:27).

Again a word of warning regarding this test. Many false prophets will say to Jesus in the last judgment, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works" (Matthew 7:22)?

The Lord will not recognize them as His, as they practiced iniquity (Greek: anomia — against the law of God). They seem to pass the test, but fail in regard to the law.

5. The true prophet will speak with authority (Matthew 7:29).

Jesus is the supreme example, and He spoke those things which He had seen and heard from the Father (John 8:26,28,38). A prophet will likewise reveal those things with authority that have been revealed to him by God.

6. The true prophet will bear good fruit.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them (Matthew 7:20).

This test is compelling. Does the prophet live a life in harmony with the will of God and are the lives of those touched transformed so that they too live godly lives? Once again, a word of warning: No one is without sin, and all fall short of the glory of God.

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months (James 5:17 NKJV).

Although Elijah had faults and passions just like us, he strove to live a godly life and the fruits of his labor testify that he was truly a prophet of God.

7. The true prophet, when in vision, will exhibit physical signs.

In vision, the prophet's eyes will be open.

The utterance of him who hears the words of God, who sees the vision of the Almighty, who falls down, with eyes wide open (Numbers 24:4 NKJV).

Daniel 10 describes the physical state of the prophet Daniel while in vision.

And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me; for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words; and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face to the ground (Daniel 10:7-9).

Daniel had "no strength," and he must have fallen to the ground as he lay with his "face to the ground." The prophet does not, however, remain in this helpless state on the ground, but he is lifted up by God, and while still in vision, stands up on his feet (Daniel 10:10-11).

In vision, the prophet will have no breath in him, and no strength.

And suddenly one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, My Lord, because of the vision, my sorrows have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. For how can this servant of my Lord talk with you my Lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me. Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me (Daniel 10:16-17 NKJV).

No mention is made of the restoration of breathing while in vision. The prophet is sustained by God while in vision. In summary, a prophet in vision shows these signs:

i) Falls down weak

ii) Is raised up and strengthened by God

iii) Has the eyes wide open during the vision

iv) Does not breath, even when speaking

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Scripture-test-truth

[BobRyan]

I agree with your list - except for the last sign.

No prophet in the Bible is ever tested by physical signs - and the Bible never states that such signs are a sign of a prophet.

There were two individuals that came to Ellen White claiming that one of them was also a true prophet of God - was an SDA and agreed with all the doctrines of the church. They wanted to know if they could pray to God to see if He would grant that a vision would be given at that time so that Ellen White could see it and then decide if it was a case of being a true prophet or not.

Ellen White stated that she could not tell from looking at someone having a vision whether it was of God or not, nor did she state that any message that they claimed to have had from God was contrary to the Bible nor did she accuse them of unchristian behavior.

Quote:

An Interesting Proposal—in the midst of Sister White’s account of her early experiences with fanaticism Brother Mackin made the following proposal: {3SM 372.1}

R. Mackin: If we would now have the spirit of prayer, and this power would come upon my wife, would you be able to discern whether this was of the Lord or not? {3SM 372.2}

Ellen G. White: I could not tell you anything about it. But I am telling you these experiences in order that you may know what we have passed through. We tried in every way possible to rid the church of this evil. We declared in the name of the Lord God of Israel that God does not work through his children in a way that brings the truth into disrepute, and that unnecessarily creates deep-seated prejudice and bitter opposition. In our work we must take a straightforward course and seek to reach the people where they are. {3SM 372.3}

…

Ellen G.White Now I am afraid to have anything of a fanatical nature brought in among our people. There are many, many who must be sanctified; but they are to be sanctified through obedience to the message of truth. I am writing on this subject today. In this message there is a beautiful consistency that appeals to the judgment. We cannot allow excitable elements among us to display themselves in a way that would destroy our influence with those whom we wish to reach with the truth. It took us years to outlive the unfavorable impression that unbelievers gained of Adventists through their knowledge of the strange and wicked workings of fanatical elements among us during the early years of our existence as a separate people. {3SM 374.4}

BE GUARDED.--R. MACKIN: WELL, NOW, THIS THAT YOU ARE GIVING US, WOULD THIS BE CONSIDERED TESTIMONY UNDER

375

THE SPIRIT, OR IS IT SIMPLY COUNSEL--OF RELATING YOUR EXPERIENCE? {3SM 374.5}

Ellen G. White: I am giving you history. {3SM 375.1}

R. MACKIN: BUT YOU DO NOT SAY THAT THAT APPLIES TO OUR CASE NOW, UNTIL YOU HAVE FURTHER LIGHT ON IT? {3SM 375.2}

Ellen G. White: I could not say; but it appears to be along that line, as I am afraid of it. It appears to be along that line that I have met again and again. {3SM 375.3}

W. C. WHITE: IT IS NOW TWELVE O'CLOCK. WOULD YOU NOT LIKE TO REST BEFORE DINNER? {3SM 375.4}

Ellen G. White: Well, I could not let you go before I had said what I have said. I would say: be guarded. Do not let anything appear that savors of fanaticism, and that others would act out. There are some who are eager to make a show, and they will act out whatever you may do--whether it be of the same tenor or not. I have been very careful not to stir up anything like strangeness among our people. {3SM 375.5}

R. MACKIN: BUT IT IS TRUE THAT WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES COME, AS IS STATED IN YOUR WORKS, THAT MANY WILL TURN AGAINST IT, AND DECLARE THAT IT IS FANATICISM? {3SM 375.6}

Ellen G. White: Of course they will; and for this reason we ought to be very guarded. It is through the Word--not feeling, not excitement--that we want to influence the people to obey the truth. On the platform of God's Word we can stand with safety. The living Word is replete with evidence, and a wonderful power accompanies its proclamation in our world. {3SM 375.7}

R. MACKIN: WELL, WE MUST NOT TIRE YOU. {3SM 375.8}

MRS. MACKIN: PRAISE THE LORD! {3SM 375.9}

Ellen G. White (rising, and shaking hands): I want the Spirit of the Lord to be with you, and you, and me. We are to be just like God's little children. The power of His grace must not be misunderstood. We must have it in all meekness and humility and lowliness of mind, that God may make the impression Himself upon the minds of the people. I hope the Lord will bless you and give you a solid foundation, which foundation is the Word of the living God.--Manuscript 115, 1908. {3SM 375.10}

Later in a message given from God Ellen White was shown that the gift they claimed was not from God.

==========================

And besides all that - there is some question as to whether Malachy provided that list at all. It is "said" that the list was first published in the late 1500's and that the accuracy of the list is considerably better prior to the date of its being published - as if the one who published it - wrote it himself and then attributed it to Malachy.

Still - it has an interesting record of fulfillment.

in Christ,

Bob

[Textus Receptus]

I agree with your list - except for the last sign.

No prophet in the Bible is ever tested by physical signs - and the Bible never states that such signs are a sign of a prophet.

In vision, the prophet's eyes will be open.

The utterance of him who hears the words of God, who sees the vision of the Almighty, who falls down, with eyes wide open (Numbers 24:4 NKJV).

Daniel 10 describes the physical state of the prophet Daniel while in vision.

And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me; for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words; and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face to the ground (Daniel 10:7-9).

Daniel had "no strength," and he must have fallen to the ground as he lay with his "face to the ground." The prophet does not, however, remain in this helpless state on the ground, but he is lifted up by God, and while still in vision, stands up on his feet (Daniel 10:10-11).

In vision, the prophet will have no breath in him, and no strength.

And suddenly one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, My Lord, because of the vision, my sorrows have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. For how can this servant of my Lord talk with you my Lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me. Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me (Daniel 10:16-17 NKJV).

No mention is made of the restoration of breathing while in vision. The prophet is sustained by God while in vision. In summary, a prophet in vision shows these signs:

i) Falls down weak

ii) Is raised up and strengthened by God

iii) Has the eyes wide open during the vision

iv) Does not breath, even when speaking

These signs cannot be readily counterfeited. In fact, modern so-called visionaries tend to fall down with their eyes closed, and they have breath in them, because only God can sustain life without breath.

I really wont add much, as I think Amazing Discoveries did a very good job in describing what occurs when a vision is given to a prophet. I certainly will do more research with regards to what have added, which think is very interesting.

[Planey]

So you contend that what happened to Daniel on this specific occasion applies to all prophetic visions on all occasions?

Why do you reach that conclusion?

Graeme

[BobRyan]

In vision, the prophet's eyes will be open.

The utterance of him who hears the words of God, who sees the vision of the Almighty, who falls down, with eyes wide open (Numbers 24:4 NKJV).

Daniel 10 describes the physical state of the prophet Daniel while in vision.

And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

[Paula]

I don't know if Malachy was "of God" or "of the devil"... but his prophecy states that after the 111th Pope (of the Glory of the Olive Branch), Pietro Romano would sit in his seat. Benedict was the 111th (Since Malachi), and the sign of the Benedictine order is the Olive.

Now it gets weirder...

The current HEAD of STATE at the Vaticana is Tarcisio PIETRO Bertone, of the town of ROMANO... Which means that currently sitting in the Pope's SEAT is PIETRO ROMANO!!

[hch]

If Jesus comes before another pope is elected, I will know I'm wrong and happily acknowledge it (though I doubt we'll be posting here). It'd be pretty tough to ignore that. But yeah, changing our ideas based on the evidence is part of personal integrity.

As I read it the Virgins don't all wake up at the same time. Those that awake when Jesus Comes wake up too late.

[hch]

I don't know if Malachy was "of God" or "of the devil"... but his prophecy states that after the 111th Pope (of the Glory of the Olive Branch), Pietro Romano would sit in his seat. Benedict was the 111th (Since Malachi), and the sign of the Benedictine order is the Olive.

Now it gets weirder...

The current HEAD of STATE at the Vaticana is Tarcisio PIETRO Bertone, of the town of ROMANO... Which means that currently sitting in the Pope's SEAT is PIETRO ROMANO!!

If there is any credence to Malachy's Pietro Romano, I am still of the view that Satan will personate John-Paul II. Since the 8th is of the 7(unless Benedict comes back under another name.)

Jesus did say to Peter: Get thee behind me Satan.

[Paula]

HCH, there is another possible interpretation.

Notice that Rev. 17 says that there are 7 KINGS, and that the 8th is OF the 7 (but their is NO 8th King, or Head). TODAY, we have Tarcisio PIETRO Bertone of ROMANO in command of the Catholic Church (Political Command, since he is the Secretary of State and is in control until a new pope is elected). So he is OF the 7 (he is currently the leader of the Vatican,, not hte SPIRITUAL leader of the church), but he is not a KING, or a HEAD. IF (and it's a BIG IF), the Prophecy of Malachi is God-given, notice that EVERY POPE has a number of succession (which has been spot on until Benedict). Every Pope EXCEPT Peter the Roman. So we have Peter the Roman (Tarcisio Bertone) currently "in power", but not as a POPE. He is of the seven (by the way, Cardinal Bertone tells in his biography that when he was asked by Benedict to become Secretary of State in 2007, what convinced him to do so was a DREAM he had where JOHN PAUL II appeared to him and TOLD HIM to take the job!!!. Do you think that MAYBE, just maybe he is of the seven because he is "similar" to them, but he is not a "King". Also, remember, there is no need for a "spiritual" leader since BENEDICT is not DEAD, and is still the spiritual leader of the church. What if for some reason, a new pope is not elected?? What if they decide to keep Pietro the ROMAN as Secretary of State and acting HEAD of the VATICAN, and keep Benedict as a spiritual head???

[Textus Receptus]

HCH, there is another possible interpretation.

Notice that Rev. 17 says that there are 7 KINGS, and that the 8th is OF the 7 (but their is NO 8th King, or Head). TODAY, we have Tarcisio PIETRO Bertone of ROMANO in command of the Catholic Church (Political Command, since he is the Secretary of State and is in control until a new pope is elected). So he is OF the 7 (he is currently the leader of the Vatican,, not hte SPIRITUAL leader of the church), but he is not a KING, or a HEAD. IF (and it's a BIG IF), the Prophecy of Malachi is God-given, notice that EVERY POPE has a number of succession (which has been spot on until Benedict). Every Pope EXCEPT Peter the Roman. So we have Peter the Roman (Tarcisio Bertone) currently "in power", but not as a POPE. He is of the seven (by the way, Cardinal Bertone tells in his biography that when he was asked by Benedict to become Secretary of State in 2007, what convinced him to do so was a DREAM he had where JOHN PAUL II appeared to him and TOLD HIM to take the job!!!. Do you think that MAYBE, just maybe he is of the seven because he is "similar" to them, but he is not a "King". Also, remember, there is no need for a "spiritual" leader since BENEDICT is not DEAD, and is still the spiritual leader of the church. What if for some reason, a new pope is not elected?? What if they decide to keep Pietro the ROMAN as Secretary of State and acting HEAD of the VATICAN, and keep Benedict as a spiritual head???

WOW! I am utterly astounded by this interpretation. There are rules that can not be violated when interpreting prophesy. Moreover, it illogical that the Lord would use the Whore of Babylon to deliever a prophesy about itself.

[Paula]

Textus, I am not saying that I am sure that the "prophecy of

Malachi" is God given. However, I cannot say that it ISN'T. I am

sure that there are godly people even in the RCC and it could be that God gave them prophecies in order to bring salvation to them as well. It could be that God wanted them to know the times in which they are living. Now, it could also be that this is NOT God given. However, you and I have no way of knowing for sure. To think that only SDA's are given prophecies or that only SDA's hear God, is not compatible with the teachings of Jesus, in my humble opinion.

Now, when I spoke to HCH about a possible "interpretation" of the

"prophecy" it was because he said that IF (big IF) the prophecy WAS God given he could only see it applying to John Paul II coming back from the dead. I was simply saying that maybe there is another "interpretation". I think the devil is to subtle to impersonate PJPII like that.

Now, if you look at the Prophecy of St. Malachi, so far it has proven to be pretty accurate. Could it be a "self fullfilling" prophecy? Yes. But what if it's not? I certainly believe that Rev. 17 (if the interpretation of the 7 heads as 7 popes is right) may be unfolding before our very eyes. But of course, only time will tell. And it seems like we'll know sooner rather than later.

[BobRyan]

T is not DEAD, and is still the spiritual leader of the church. What if for some reason, a new pope is not elected?? What if they decide to keep Pietro the ROMAN as Secretary of State and acting HEAD of the VATICAN, and keep Benedict as a spiritual head???

Or what if they simply select Pietro to be the next Pope?

[Paula]

That is certainly possible. The thing is that in Rev. 17, the beast has 7 heads (not eight), and the 8th "King" is the beast itself (beast is usually a secular/government power)). So I wonder if Pietro Bertone, as a "head of state" but not as a "spriitual head" wouldn't be a "beast"? He is governing the Vatican "nation" now, but he is not like the 7 that have preceeded him. And, ironically, there is still a "pope" (of the 7), Benedict. Of course, I could be way off... just wondering... On the other hand, they could totally elect Pietro Bertone, or not... who knows...

[Textus Receptus]

Textus, I am not saying that I am sure that the "prophecy of

Malachi" is God given. However, I cannot say that it ISN'T. I am

sure that there are godly people even in the RCC and it could be that God gave them prophecies in order to bring salvation to them as well. It could be that God wanted them to know the times in which they are living. Now, it could also be that this is NOT God given. However, you and I have no way of knowing for sure. To think that only SDA's are given prophecies or that only SDA's hear God, is not compatible with the teachings of Jesus, in my humble opinion.

Now, when I spoke to HCH about a possible "interpretation" of the

"prophecy" it was because he said that IF (big IF) the prophecy WAS God given he could only see it applying to John Paul II coming back from the dead. I was simply saying that maybe there is another "interpretation". I think the devil is to subtle to impersonate PJPII like that.

Now, if you look at the Prophecy of St. Malachi, so far it has proven to be pretty accurate. Could it be a "self fullfilling" prophecy? Yes. But what if it's not? I certainly believe that Rev. 17 (if the interpretation of the 7 heads as 7 popes is right) may be unfolding before our very eyes. But of course, only time will tell. And it seems like we'll know sooner rather than later.

Paula, no where did I say that only the SDA can onlyu speak authoritatively about prophesy. I do not like it when people assume that this is why we disagree with 99.9% of the world. SDA is just a denomenation. However, they are the only church that follow the word of God to the letter. As a result, its not the SDA church as why God had and has chosen favor, but as a result of their obedience. Please read the following closely...

To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20).

Most modern-day prophets would fail this test. A prophet cannot negate what God has revealed in His Word, and all the precepts of the law are binding (James 2:10). When the law is not observed, the gift of prophecy is withdrawn (Lamentations 2:9). Malachy as a Sunday observer and an obedient member of the Catholic church would fall terribly short of this requirement found in scripture.

[Paula]

Textus, I agree with everything you have said. Again it is a BIG IF as to whether or not the "prophecy" of Malachi is God given. However, over a period of over 1000 YEARS there were little to NO Sabbath keeping Christians in the world (yes, SOME of the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers, but they were a VERY small number, and were not really in contact with MOST of the Christian World). The reality is that even in their error, there were FAITHFUL, OBEDIENT Christians. If you are 100% OBEDIENT within the scope of what you KNOW, are you not FULLY faithful?

Like you, I also have a hard time believing that God speaks to non Sabbath keepers. But I've known enough non-Sabbath keeping Christians, who have a MUCH closer walk with the Lord then most SDA's that I know. The fact that we have the Sabbath and KNOW the truth, doesn't necessarily mean that we are walking with God (as was the case of the Children of Israel). So I DO believe that God may have spoken to faithful Catholics in 11th Century. Do I KNOW for sure?? Am I willing to "bet on it"?? Absolutely NOT!!

[Textus Receptus]

Textus, I agree with everything you have said. Again it is a BIG IF as to whether or not the "prophecy" of Malachi is God given. However, over a period of over 1000 YEARS there were little to NO Sabbath keeping Christians in the world (yes, SOME of the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers, but they were a VERY small number, and were not really in contact with MOST of the Christian World). The reality is that even in their error, there were FAITHFUL, OBEDIENT Christians. If you are 100% OBEDIENT within the scope of what you KNOW, are you not FULLY faithful?

Like you, I also have a hard time believing that God speaks to non Sabbath keepers. But I've known enough non-Sabbath keeping Christians, who have a MUCH closer walk with the Lord then most SDA's that I know. The fact that we have the Sabbath and KNOW the truth, doesn't necessarily mean that we are walking with God (as was the case of the Children of Israel). So I DO believe that God may have spoken to faithful Catholics in 11th Century. Do I KNOW for sure?? Am I willing to "bet on it"?? Absolutely NOT!!

I strongly have to beg to differ with your analysis. You are indeed correct that the beast of the sea did all that she could to destroy the word of God, and that only a few (a remnant) were Sabbath keepers, but again, God would never work outside the parameters which He has set up. God governs His universe with law and order, and to make those laws arbitrary would undoubtably cause confusion that would ultimately destroy any truth that is left in the world.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33.

You admitted that there has always been a remnant, as such, God would use this remnant to further His kingdom despite their numbers. We do not understand why God decided to wait until the 1800's to establish His latter day prophet but then again, His ways are not our ways.

Secondly, non Sabbath Christians whether they have good intentions and love the Lord, they do not know Him.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" 1 John 2:4.

That said, this does not mean that they do not love the Lord, but their relationship with Christ is still not fulfilled. As such, God will use those who know Him to further His Kingdom. Furthermore, We cannot throw type and antitype to the way side.

I totally agree that there are many in the SDA who do not have a close relationship with Christ, however, they are more convicted as they have the totallity of understanding the Plan of Salvation. As stated, being in the SDA Church does not guarantee salvation. Conviction does not translate to Salvation either. Infact, we are held to a higher standard since we know the truth.

If God uses churches that are in apostasy, then why have Laws. God wants to have them Come out of Babylon, not have them ask - why should they if Truth can be found in disobedience.