Sad Story from Atlantic Union and GNY Conferences.

[Paula]

I don't know about this case in particular JoeMo, but from my experience in my local church, where over 1MILLION Dollars "vanished" during construction, the Conference just turns a blind eye. We called the auditor, called the conference, called the church board... EVERYONE is COVERING FOR SOMEONE!!! WE (those involved in the treasury AFTER THE FACT)were seen as trouble makers!! The MILLION DOLLARS is still missing, the members know nothing about it AND we were promised a 20,000 square foot church (with adequate rooms, etc.. etc..) and ended up with a 9000 square foot sanctuary with 7 8X8 rooms (which u can hardly fit the kids into) and 4 bathrooms, and 2 closets. THAT's IT!!!!! And this for a 300+ congregation!!! The only thing we could have done (which we didn't, out of pity for those involved) was to send all the documents we had to the Attorney General's office so that they could investigate and prosecute. So yes, there is A LOT that's wrong in how "business" is being done in the church today. ACTUALLY, that's the problem, the SDA Church has become more corporate like than church like.

[cricket]

I don't know about this case in particular JoeMo, but from my experience in my local church, where over 1MILLION Dollars "vanished" during construction, the Conference just turns a blind eye. We called the auditor, called the conference, called the church board... EVERYONE is COVERING FOR SOMEONE!!! WE (those involved in the treasury AFTER THE FACT)were seen as trouble makers!! The MILLION DOLLARS is still missing, the members know nothing about it AND we were promised a 20,000 square foot church (with adequate rooms, etc.. etc..) and ended up with a 9000 square foot sanctuary with 7 8X8 rooms (which u can hardly fit the kids into) and 4 bathrooms, and 2 closets. THAT's IT!!!!! And this for a 300+ congregation!!! The only thing we could have done (which we didn't, out of pity for those involved) was to send all the documents we had to the Attorney General's office so that they could investigate and prosecute. So yes, there is A LOT that's wrong in how "business" is being done in the church today. ACTUALLY, that's the problem, the SDA Church has become more corporate like than church like.

The ones who can put two and two together should know now! LOL

[Paula]

You'd think so. But people just stick their heads in the sand,and refuse to see facts. Much like they'er doing on this thread. Those making the "accusations" are seen as holier than though, trouble makers who don't care for the good of the church (the good of the church apparently being the act of sweeping corruption under the rug). We are seen as not loving our neighbor (the guilty parties). But what about loving your neighbors as in the innocent parties who donated their hard earned money to the church??

[Gail]

No... I see people who don't want to comment without having enough information.

Your instance with your church sounds like a different situation and you may feel okay with passing on info. For me and the situation in the OP, it would be gossip.

[Woody]

No... I see people who don't want to comment without having enough information.

Your instance with your church sounds like a different situation and you may feel okay with passing on info. For me and the situation in the OP, it would be gossip.

[Paula]

Hi Gail, I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately many times these posts are NOT gossip, but the last ditch effort on the part of members who actually care for truth, justice and transparency within the church. However, it is the attitude of condemnation against anyone who would dare be a "whistle-blower" within the church organization that makes these things fester. I won't leave the church, and neither will my family, because we know to look to Jesus and not to the mistakes of the Church. But let me tell you, our church is not a one in a million incident. And cover ups happen in every level of the organization. My husband is a pastor's son, I have 2 uncles who are pastors, and my husband also has several pastors and even conference administrators in his family. I have another uncle who was a Conference Treasurer for many years. Trust me, members need to be less hostile to those who are trying to bring transperency into church business.

[cricket]

.

[Paula]

Wow... now I remember why I stopped coming here and posting... everyone takes everything so personally... there's no way to have an intelligent, open, "give and take".

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I have a hard time with "informaton" that is posted without any back-up, verifiable information. Those who think such is unnecessary shouldn't be surprised when their story "data" is questioned. Just one's "say-so" doesn't cut the mustard. Sorry.

[Paula]

Hi Rudy!

I understand what you are saying about not posting "evidence". I think the problem is certainly 2 sided. Let me elaborate based on what happened at our church. The issues that lead to the 1million+ missing didn't happen overnight, and it certainly didn't happen in a vacuum. The person who became aware that something was "off", started bringing it up at every church board meeting (he was the head elder). The pastor and all the other Church Board member said he was crazy. The builder of the church (the company used)was owned by church a church member. There were accusations that the person making the allegations was making things up, was trying to force everyone to follow the church manual by the "letter of the law", was trying to impede church progress, etc.. etc.. This went on for about 5 YEARS!!! Every church board meeting, this person brought it up, and at every meeting the person was labeled a troublemaker, and told to bring proof. The person would request that the Treasurer make a report, to present to the church for full disclosure and the Treasurer always had an excuse, and never did it. Yet the church was paying for commercials to be made, for CD's to be recorded by members, for pastors to be flown in, and on and on and on. The church bought a 150,000 sound system and said an "anonymous donor" had given the funds... They also started several other churches in our state, and were paying the pastors (the Conference wasn't paying since the churches were not yet organized). The church musicians and secretary and bible worker were all being paid by the church. Now, 90% of this was NEVER brought to the board for approval, nor to the church for approval. The Elder knew that the money was coming from SOMEWHERE but could not prove it. What was happening was that a group of 3 or 4 Church Board Members were working with the Treasurer and Pastor and they decided what got paid for and what didn't. The rest of the Board was told that the Elder was on a VENDETTA. Finally, after an especially heated church Board Meeting (in the past there had been meetings where the treasurer tried to physically attack the Elder), the other members of the board, in an effort to "prove the Elder wrong", elected him as the new Treasurer!! When he assumed the position, the old elder KEPT the laptop that had been used the whole time, and bought a new BLANK laptop for the new Treasurer. It had NO RECORDS of the previous 7 years!!!! So, in order to get the information, the Elder, now TREASURER had to go to the Conference office. An auditor came down and helped him to piece together the previous 7 years. This was when they realized that the loss had been of over 1MILLION dollars. At the time, I, and a few other people who were aware of the case told the Elder/Treasurer to print out the final Report and HAND IT OUT to EVERY MEMBER of the church.

He refused!! WHY??? He didn't want to cause a SCANDAL! He wanted to resolve the problem INTERNALLY. He wanted to spare new members, and members who were weak in the faith from something that could make them walk away from their faith.

So, was he correct??? I believe NO. I believe that by wanting to "protect" the church he did just as much harm as those who put him down, derided him, and those who did the misappropriating of the funds. However, this is what happens in the church. You have a CULTURE where the members believe that their leaders are always going to be honest (and usually, they are), and that to call out that dishonesty, is to bring shame to the church. When someone does it, no one believes it, because no one wants to. The people who did all of this are still active int he church. They are still LEADERS. The person who called them out on it, is NOT. The conference was informed by the Auditor, by the Elder/Treasurer, by ME, and by another member. They wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!! I personally came very close to sending the information to the District Attorneys office with a request for an investigation by the Federal Government into what happened at the church. Why didn't I?? Probably because I'm as much a product of that culture as any one else. And so the corruption and cover ups continue to grow and fester within the church. Who loses with that?? EVRYONE.

[Windsor]

Rule number one when it comes to spending church funds on building projects, housekeeping, gardening, etc. NEVER hire a church member and NEVER hire a close friend or relative of a church member.

[Paula]

So true Windsor!! In our case the Building Committee was headed by the owner of the Building COMPANY!!! Hows that for conflict of interest?? And while he had nothing to do with the misapropriation of funds, he swayed the Building committee promising to build the church for less than the other 2 quoted companies (quotes were all based on a 20,000 square foot church). He said he could do it for 1.5 million. And he did, but we got a 9000 sq foot church... AND our mortgage was for 2.5 MILLION (and the church raised $550,000 in cash for the building fund, but the cash "disappeared"). All in all we lost nearly 1.5 Million!!!

[Woody]

Problem is: As with most things - individual perceptions RULE.

[HopefulOne]

I don't know about this case in particular JoeMo, but from my experience in my local church, where over 1MILLION Dollars "vanished" during construction, the Conference just turns a blind eye. We called the auditor, called the conference, called the church board... EVERYONE is COVERING FOR SOMEONE!!! WE (those involved in the treasury AFTER THE FACT)were seen as trouble makers!! The MILLION DOLLARS is still missing, the members know nothing about it AND we were promised a 20,000 square foot church (with adequate rooms, etc.. etc..) and ended up with a 9000 square foot sanctuary with 7 8X8 rooms (which u can hardly fit the kids into) and 4 bathrooms, and 2 closets. THAT's IT!!!!! And this for a 300+ congregation!!! The only thing we could have done (which we didn't, out of pity for those involved) was to send all the documents we had to the Attorney General's office so that they could investigate and prosecute. So yes, there is A LOT that's wrong in how "business" is being done in the church today. ACTUALLY, that's the problem, the SDA Church has become more corporate like than church like.

The attorney general solution may have been a good way to get to the bottom of this issue,but i doubt EG White would approve.She recommends church problems to be settled within the church.

EG White does suggest to send tithe to where Gods will is being accomplished,usually this means an SDA ministry,which the conference has little control over.

We had this problem in the late 1980,s and early 1990,s in the lake union conference when lots of money was lost in the stock market or just turned up missing.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

To ban people from their own church with no due process (i.e., no church discipline or disfellowship) is wrong to me.

Unless one owns an organization, it would seem right that the ones who do own it have the right to do anything they choose without interference from outside entities. While I may belong to a church by vote of the body, I do not see myself as owning the body. If there is a disagreement between me and the body and after making it known I have that disagreement, if no satisfactory solution is made to bring me into agreement, I have the right to let it be known I disagree but no right to force any changes. Perhaps to try to persuade for change but no definitive right of enforcement.

If the disagreement is beyond remedy to my satisfaction, I always have right to leave and wing it on my own. My salvation is bound up in my relationship to Jesus and if I leave where He has placed His blessing, He will make it clear to me of my mistake. In the meantime I won't need to make any overt effort to do more than live righteously and God will make it clear who has the need to change.

God cares!

[ClubV12]

HopefulOne says,

"EG White does suggest to send tithe to where Gods will is being accomplished.."

That is grossly misleading and could easily warrant a thread all it's own. There are plenty of people who make the decision to withold tithe because they don't like this or that decision by the Conference or the Church. It is a convenient excuse to rob God. I don't know about YOUR tithe money but MY tithe money is given with a glad heart as an offering to the Lord to His appointed agencies. I am confident MY tithe money is being blessed in the same way the widows mite was blessed. It is not being used in lawsuits or scandals, it is being used to further His work and His hand is over it.

[doug yowell]

HopefulOne says' date='

"EG White does suggest to send tithe to where Gods will is being accomplished.."

That is grossly misleading and could easily warrant a thread all it's own. There are plenty of people who make the decision to withold tithe because they don't like this or that decision by the Conference or the Church. It is a convenient excuse to rob God. quote'] Club, the line read "to SEND the tithe" not "withhold" the tithe. Not the same.

[ClubV12]

Sending the tithe to some group of your choice, outside the appointed agencies meant to receive tithe, is robbing God. It is the same sin as not paying tithe at all and it is a very serious problem. It demonstrates a lack of faith in God. I know several people who chose to not send their tithe to the Conference. In every case it is from a spirit of anger and concern over how the money is being spent.

If you owed me money but refused to pay me because you didn't like the way I spent the money, or because you were mad at me, then you have robbed me. Giving the money to some charity you like does change anything, I've still been robbed.

[OzarkWoman]

Sending the tithe to some group of your choice, outside the appointed agencies meant to receive tithe, is robbing God. It is the same sin as not paying tithe at all and it is a very serious problem. It demonstrates a lack of faith in God. I know several people who chose to not send their tithe to the Conference. In every case it is from a spirit of anger and concern over how the money is being spent.

If you owed me money but refused to pay me because you didn't like the way I spent the money, or because you were mad at me, then you have robbed me. Giving the money to some charity you like does change anything, I've still been robbed.

Excuse me, but who is it to say what appointed agency has the right to my tithe? You are going with opinion here and nothing else. Just because you would disapprove of where someone spent their tithing does not mean they are robbing God at all, only in your eyes.

[ClubV12]

Not my opinion, I'm just pointing out and following the established rules by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Many, cannot even agree on WHAT constitutes the Church! Not an issue with me, it is that body of believers raised up in 1844 and made official in 1863 commonly recognized by the State, your neighbor and the Federal Government as the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The same group I pay my tithe too through the proper channels as set up by that Church.

It is the opinion of that esteemed and organized group, and I concur, that to direct your tithe otherwise, is to rob God.

[phkrause]

Sending the tithe to some group of your choice, outside the appointed agencies meant to receive tithe, is robbing God. It is the same sin as not paying tithe at all and it is a very serious problem. It demonstrates a lack of faith in God. I know several people who chose to not send their tithe to the Conference. In every case it is from a spirit of anger and concern over how the money is being spent.

If you owed me money but refused to pay me because you didn't like the way I spent the money, or because you were mad at me, then you have robbed me. Giving the money to some charity you like does change anything, I've still been robbed.

I'm in total agree Club, I remember back a few years when a church officer who was in charge of the funds coming into the church, either gambled it away or something else, not sure which. Anyway I still payed my tithe, I figured that what happened after I gave back to God what was his anyway, it was there responsibility to put it were it belongs.

[ClubV12]

It is painful when we see these things happen. I'm human, you know the devil comes whispering in my ear, "Just look what happens to YOUR tithe money." But I will stay the course and rebuke the devourer. Now I don't know about the guy in the next pew over, don't know what happens to his tithe money... I know where MINE goes, an angel keeps careful notes, marks the bills, it's safe and it's doing Gods work! I trust your tithe monies are in the same angelic account PK. :)

[Naomi]

[Ted Oplinger]

Never had a real issue with this, but I do know some in my church did withhold tithe when they didn't like what the Conference was doing with their funds.

If I had a problem with my church's financial issues to the point of withholding money, I'd send it to the next level up - straight to the Conference. If the conference abuse the tithe sent - that is between God and those poor stewards. My part would be to send it either cross-conference in the Union, to the the Union directly.

Don't know if "the rules" allow for such action. If tithe went to the Union, my tithe would be accompanied by a polite letter detailing my position for why such an extreme action would be necessary...and the necessity for cleaning house in a Conference under their control.

Blessings,

[ClubV12]

Ted, I looked into that sometime ago. Apparently what happens when you send tithe direct to, lets say the G.C., they establish where your membership is and then credit that Church. In turn, of course, that Conference, etc.

I think the only way to be sure would be to send the funds annonomously in some way. Don't know how one would do that and of course you would loose the tax deduction.