Sad Story from Atlantic Union and GNY Conferences.

[OzarkWoman]

It is the opinion of that esteemed and organized group, and I concur, that to direct your tithe otherwise, is to rob God.

Oh well, just another of the reasons I can't stand organized religion. The fact that SDA pastors won't baptize people unless they join the church shows that the denomination is more interested in numbers and money, as opposed to actually bring someone to Jesus and the Bible.

[ClubV12]

What that shows is that the Church has minimum standards to which you must adhere to join. Virtually every group on earth has that. And virtually every group will kick you out if you violate those minimum standards. If I don't like the rules of some group I don't have to become a member. Lots of lone wolfs in society, just like in the time of Adam and Eve. Cain was a lone wolf, didn't like the rules, the minimum standards, wanted to do things his way. Moses had minimum standards, the Jewish people for thousands of years had rules other Nations who wanted to join them had to follow. The early Church had rules. SOCIETY has rules, man these rules are everywhere.

Quick, find a cave, move to the mountains, they aint going away. :)

[OzarkWoman]

What that shows is that the Church has minimum standards to which you must adhere to join. Virtually every group on earth has that. And virtually every group will kick you out if you violate those minimum standards. If I don't like the rules of some group I don't have to become a member. Lots of lone wolfs in society, just like in the time of Adam and Eve. Cain was a lone wolf, didn't like the rules, the minimum standards, wanted to do things his way. Moses had minimum standards, the Jewish people for thousands of years had rules other Nations who wanted to join them had to follow. The early Church had rules. SOCIETY has rules, man these rules are everywhere.

Quick, find a cave, move to the mountains, they aint going away.

How about this...the Bible says to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, not in the name of any denomination. It was THE church not a church. So, you can make fun of me all you want, but at least I know what the Bible says and that is what I adhere to. The story of Cain and such is not even a good analogy at all. I joined the church and I am very active in it, as I am the head of the sound and video recording, but what I sttated is the truth and all you were and are able to do is to make fun of what I say. That is ok because the Bible also says that people will be made fun of and such that truly try to follow the WORD, and not man's words.

Have a nice day. I know I will!

I think you might be the one who might want to find that cave since you are a laegalist and nothing else.

[ClubV12]

We had a baptism last Sabbath. It was as you said it should be. It was NOT in the "name of a Church".

Making fun of you? YOUR the one with your finger out judging folks for being legalist! Check the mirror, several fingers are pointing back calling you a raging liberal. Works both ways you see...

If the story of Cain does not go back far enough for you as it concerns rules. We could examine the case of Lucifer, he didn't like rules either and his liberalism and wish for freedom and independance is what got us into this mess.

ALL of heaven is ordered, there are leaders, rules, laws, counsels, it is very structured.

[OzarkWoman]

We had a baptism last Sabbath. It was as you said it should be. It was NOT in the "name of a Church".

Yes, but they had to join the church to be baptized and stop with the dumb semantics. I am done with this conversation because you rationalize and that is not for me. You will not make it to be with our Father by what you eath or don't eat, what denomination one is a member of, or all of the other works you are so fond of.

I will say this one last statement...YOU are the kind that most people run away as fast as they can. You and the people who think as you do are what keeps a lot of people away from the church and actually getting to know Christ. I am glad that I had amuch more mature and knowledgable and compassionate pastor that brought me into the church.

[debbym]

Cain's issues were not about submission or not submission to rules.

lucifer's issues were not about submission or not submission to rules.

if all this was about was how submissive you can be to rules... or how rebellious you are to rules, it would be a different world. perhaps lawyers would be the princes and kings.

jealousy is not about a rule, self centeredness is not about a rule.

rejecting the cross, and avoiding the pain and gore of a blood sacrifice is not about breaking a rule.

Judas's betrayal of Christ was about unrestrained personal ambition and self gratification, it was not about a rule.

worshiping the Lord and Loving the Lord supremely with all your heart is not about rules.

it is about what you love, and what you love the most. motivation and inspiration are not about rules. The principles in the ten commandments go far deeper then words can go.

some people love being right more then they love the people they are talking to.

God loves everyone so much he endured an unspeakable death and suffering so everyone could know how much they are valued, after sin had done it's damage.

i can see if Jesus had come soon after sin and died for mankind when he was still beautiful and mighty with the glory of creation still fresh on it's dna, it would not have had near the impact of dying for us when we were so spiritually dim we could not recognize the glory of God shining in front of us, and we agonized over how we could kill him as quickly as possible.

[debbym]

I have a friend who gave bible studies to someone who was sda baptized without joining the church.

It can happen.

[ClubV12]

It has happened with several people in MY local Church. Baptism and Church membership are two different issues entirely. Sure, generally speaking one follows the other and you cannot BE a member without being baptized (it's Church "law").

I was just talking to a friend of mine a few minutes ago. She was baptized a year or so ago, calls herself a Seventh-day Adventist. Believes the Church is in apostasy and refuses to become a member. She is a good friend, and when it's warranted I remind her, she can't vote, hold office or have a say in how the Church is being run. Because sometimes she resentful that she can't. Membership has it's privileges, it's the "law". Recognizing and respecting the law does not make anyone a "legalist", nor does it give anyone the right to make the JUDGEMENT on someone.

Debbym, I do believe Cain, Lucifer and most of this planet are all in the same boat, questioning, ignoring, not being in submission to: "The Law". The great final test is all about the "law", the fourth commandment. We can use whatever label to call it whatever name folks are comfortable with. If the word "submission" doesn't work for you, we can call it something else.

Rebellion? Rejection of Gods law, by any other name, would stink as much.

Debbym says,

"...worshiping the Lord and Loving the Lord supremely with all your heart is not about rules."

True, and yet, not true. How you worship in your own home or life is one thing. In Church, any Church, there are "rules" that have to followed in worship. A.T. Jones was certainly used of God to deliver a most needed message in 1888. But a few years later we see Sister White counseling him that he has taken that message to far. It IS righteousness by faith, and that faith, when properly applied, will result in "works" (that flow from a heart of love). A.T. Jones rejected Ellen Whites counsel and eventually left the Church entirely.

[debbym]

Quote:

Debbym, I do believe Cain, Lucifer and most of this planet are all in the same boat, questioning, ignoring, not being in submission to: "The Law". The great final test is all about the "law", the fourth commandment. We can use whatever label to call it whatever name folks are comfortable with. If the word "submission" doesn't work for you, we can call it something else.

you will not be able to pass that test if you do not love God more then loving yourself.

The Sabbath is not about rules, it is about recreation, a new heart, new motivation, new purpose.

the Jews made it about rules because they did not Love God supremely, yet desired his favor, so they set about securing it by following rules.

granted there is structure in the written law, but the principles actually reach to the depths of our hearts, not the surface our our mind.

When the voice of God spoke his law, with such a voice, the same that spoke creation into existence, they could not bear it. They could not endure the revelation of God's righteous character revealed in the law. but it was not the intellectual reading of the rules that drove them to plead for the voice to stop. It was the conviction in their hearts, from being in the presence of the very revelation of the Character of God whom they were estranged from by sinfulness.

Evil where it exists will join with evil for the destruction of the good.

this is a spiritual law, inescapable except by Divine grace, Without intervention you will be on the side of persecutors.

No intellectual knowledge will root the selfish motive from the heart. It takes the Love of God to do that.

It is back to the Laodicean message to get remedy for our condition as church members.

[ClubV12]

I'm not suggesting or implying or counseling anybody on how they keep the law. I'm recognizing it EXISTS! Lucifer suggested the laws of heaven were unfair, this IS the great controversy at it's very core. Everything is determined by HOW we respond to the law.

David loved the law, I love the law. Was David a legalist? I compare Gods law to mans law and I love Gods love ever more deeply! It is my meditation day and night. I see mercy, justice, love, wisdom. I see in the law the very character of Christ! When David said, "Oh I love thy law" what he was really saying was, "Oh how I love God."

It has not been merely suggested that because I love the law I am legalistic, that is the charge! Flat out, that I'm a legalist. Why? Have I told YOU how to worship on the Sabbath? Or that you should be a member of the Church? Or that you HAVE to believe in Ellen White? None of the above.

I, personally, love, respect, honor, acknowledge Gods laws, including the counsel to us as delivered through His choosen messenger Ellen White. ALL of His counsel, rules and laws.

I believe this Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, should not lower it's standards to the very dust by allowing anyone and everyone who says they love Jesus to be a member. I support the Church, which is bound in heaven and on earth, by God.

Worship how you want, where you want, when you want, in whatever way you want. But know this, I will oppose your membership in Gods chosen people as setup by Him, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, if you don't meet Church law as it pertains to membership.

These are hard sayings! Where is the LOVE so many cry? The love is demonstrated in His law. Oh I love thy law.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

But know this, I will oppose your membership in Gods chosen people as setup by Him, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, if you don't meet Church law as it pertains to membership.

There in lies your confusion....Gods chosen people and Church law! They are not the same and have never been the same, as demonstrated by the people of Israel and their religion. Christ came to show that following Him was just that, Him, not the religious organization. They may coincide at times, but they are not joined at the hip.

[BobRyan]

We had a baptism last Sabbath. It was as you said it should be. It was NOT in the "name of a Church".

[BobRyan]

I, personally, love, respect, honor, acknowledge Gods laws, including the counsel to us as delivered through His choosen messenger Ellen White. ALL of His counsel, rules and laws.

I believe this Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, should not lower it's standards to the very dust by allowing anyone and everyone who says they love Jesus to be a member. I support the Church, which is bound in heaven and on earth, by God.

Now there is a statement we can all agree with .

in Christ,

Bob

[debbym]

Quote:

Poster: BobRyan

Subject: Re: Sad Story from Atlantic Union and GNY Conferences.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I, personally, love, respect, honor, acknowledge Gods laws, including the counsel to us as delivered through His choosen messenger Ellen White. ALL of His counsel, rules and laws.

I believe this Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, should not lower it's standards to the very dust by allowing anyone and everyone who says they love Jesus to be a member. I support the Church, which is bound in heaven and on earth, by God.

Now there is a statement we can all agree with .

in Christ,

Bob

our danger is not likely that we might lower the standards into the dust, but that we do not let the Holy Spirit lower our pride into the dust.

As Naaman dipped seven times into the murky water, we need to lower ourselves into the murky waters of broken humanity, losing our arrogance, our superiority, losing our pride, to finally express Christ's mercy and love to every soul. Then the sin of our selfishness which is like leprosy may be cleansed.

However high our church standards, we have no members who are not unworthy sinners. Jesus did not come to save the worthy, but the unworthy. Even in heaven we will cry out, "we are unworthy of all of these blessings."

[JoeMo]

Quote:

...our danger is not likely that we might lower the standards into the dust, but that we do not let the Holy Spirit lower our pride into the dust.

As Naaman dipped seven times into the murky water, we need to lower ourselves into the murky waters of broken humanity, losing our arrogance, our superiority, losing our pride, to finally express Christ's mercy and love to every soul. Then the sin of our selfishness which is like leprosy may be cleansed.

AMEN, debjm!

[ClubV12]

It's like a facial "tick" with Adventists.

Somebody says the word "law" and the whole congregration has a "tick". Just the word itself sets off a fire storm. "Legalist", they cry, as they begin to gather stones. "If it's not from the heart, your a fanatic", says another. Fanatics chip in with a often ill placed hearty, "Amen to the law".

"Righteousness by faith, THATS the law", yells someone from the back.

This is especially true for those who have been raised as Adventists. They always have that "fear" of how to deal with the law, how to respond. They grew up with the stories of the apostasy of Israel, the man made laws, the strict counsel of Ellen White. They've become numb to the law, they have the "Adventist tick" when they hear the word.

Some, sincere and lovely though they be, feel compelled to immediately take up the challenge, to defend the Church against what they feel is a "bad rap", that Adventism is legalism.

Some have their standard response down to a science, "A.T. Jones", they know him well. It's the medicine to cure the "tick".

David didn't have this problem, "Oh how I love thy law", he said. And then he walked off, that was all that needed to be said. Some people understand it, it doesn't need an explanation, it is within their hearts. Like David it becomes their meditation all the day.

Some, really DO find joy in keeping the law. I know, I see the facial "tick" as you try to wrap your head around those two words, "joy" and "law". "Is this guy crazy", they wonder. The "tick" contorts their face as they scramble to diminish the impact such words may have on others, the "fear" wells up inside them.

But there are some, a few, who understand the beauty of the law. They are not fanatics or legalists. They don't tell other people how to keep the law in all respects. They simply give their testimony, they love the law, in all respects. And it drives Adventists nuts to hear it.

Thank you King David, a man after Gods own heart, inspired by God to say it! Thank you, I too love the law.

[debbym]

Quote:

It's like a facial "tick" with Adventists.

Somebody says the word "law" and the whole congregration has a "tick". Just the word itself sets off a fire storm. "Legalist", they cry, as they begin to gather stones. "If it's not from the heart, your a fanatic", says another. Fanatics chip in with a often ill placed hearty, "Amen to the law".

Jesus came to teach the law loving Jews, that the law without God is death.

They were masters of the law, while going about to kill the Lawmaker and law Giver.

It is too easy for us to take the intellectual law, all the words into our minds, and think we have it.

This is a classic religious discussion that has been going on for thousands of years.

The law vs the law in our hearts. If you talked about the law in your heart, if you talked about the law as expressed in the actions, of yourself or of god, then you would be sharing that complete picture.

as long as you talk law without it's application, as in "thoughts from the mount of blessing", it is natural for others to respond by trying to fill in the blanks you are leaving.

we have this promise, "i will write my laws on your heart."

does this mean we throw the law out with the bath water.

doesn't mean we have the law without the baby either.

to obey is better then sacrifice to hearken then the fat of rams.

Without obedience we die. For God has commanded us to live, and to live doing his will. His will for us is to be like him. But it requires the Spirit to apply God's principles to our heart.

[ClubV12]

David didn't have this problem Debby, he simply said he loved the law.

Some people get it, will apply it in the right spirit and some people will get a facial tick over it and try to defend and explain it in detail and there version of what it all means.

Obediance that doesn't flow from the heart is worthless, that will be obvious to those who understand what David is saying and to those who develop a love for the law.

To those who, for whatever reason, have set themselves up to resist the law, they will never understand it though they read a 1,000 books on righteousness by faith.

[debbym]

The book of Psalm was the book of worship music.

they were poetry, the worship, the history and education in song.

they were not conversational phrases like the letters of paul, or the stories in samuel, kings, chronicles, and joshua, judges, ruth, nehemiah, and job.

In the law of God were the regulations of the sanctuary services.

It was far more then what we see as the ten commandments, and the law to love God and love others as ourselves.

He loved the system of worship God had given, he loved the Life with all the holidays, feasts and the whole life style. It was all regulated by laws. And it was a blessed life. David was filled with the Holy Spirit. Regardless of his failings and weaknesses, i am sure he sincerely loved all the law of God.

I am sure he recognized every command was a blessing to be received. i believe david experienced conversion and the power of the holy Spirit teaching him the meaning of salvation , and it was expressed in those laws. Now we have Jesus who fulfilled all the laws that were prophetic about who he was, which were all the laws governing the sanctuary service.

But it is not what we understand today in our daily lives.

I see the holiness of God in the pure unselfish love of God to send jesus into this darkened cursed world, to suffer and live for others every moment. when i read in DA i see more and more of the amazing Greatness and purity and holiness of God. I imagine david understood the Holiness of God and a vision of salvation described in every service in the sanctuary.

[ClubV12]

David was a sinner, made some serious mistakes. HOW, I asked myself for a couple of years, HOW was this murderer a guy after Gods own heart? Could not grasp that when I was a new Christian, I actually despised David! I KNOW murderers, they get no sympathy from me.

Only recently has the Lord blessed me with some insight on that. David accepted the chastisment of the Lord as an excellent oil. He KNEW he was a sinner, he deserved death, he understood righteousness by faith, his only hope!

When he says the law is his meditation all the day, it's not about the sanctuary, it's about the fairness, the mercy, the love of Gods law. I SEE THAT AS WELL. I've been through the legal system, I know the "law". I compare that to Gods law and I praise His name, how wonderfully fair and just it is, especially compared to our system!

David was a man after Gods heart because he understood the impact of sin, the consequences, and he accepted them with humility and THANKFULLNESS!!! He was THANKFUL for the reproofs, the consequences of sin from God because MAN would have had him killed! Mans law is nothing like Gods law. Oh how I delight in Gods law, truly, from my heart, Oh how I love to meditate on it's beauty. How I see as I apply it to my life the marvelous results of following His counsel. It fills my heart with new love all the day as I seek to be more like Him.

[debbym]

Quote:

David was a man after Gods heart because he understood the impact of sin, the consequences, and he accepted them with humility and THANKFULLNESS!!! He was THANKFUL for the reproofs, the consequences of sin from God because MAN would have had him killed! Mans law is nothing like Gods law. Oh how I delight in Gods law, truly, from my heart, Oh how I love to meditate on it's beauty. How I see as I apply it to my life the marvelous results of following His counsel. It fills my heart with new love all the day as I seek to be more like Him.

Amen Club!

i love how God can work through anything and everything and bring good out of it.

it is so true all things work together for Good for those who love God and who are called according to his purpose.

With God is the law of mercy, the law of kindness, the law of forgiveness, and yes, the law of self denying love.

The Law of the Sabbath, holy time to be in God's presence.

The Law to have no other Gods but The Lord of all.

I am blessed by your testimony, Thank-you club!