"Faith of Jesus"

[joeb]

It is found in only 4 verses in the Bible, but there are also 2 instances where Paul uses the appellation Christ rather than Jesus. However, one of those is found in the same verse as a "faith of Jesus" phrase is found. So, I guess you could say it is found in 5 verses.

Paul uses this phrase 5 times and John uses it once. All instances of this phrase are related to RbyF.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been curious about this phrase for a long time, as in decades. I've studied into what it is several times, unsuccessfully. Today I think I finally started to get my head wrapped around it: what it is, what it means, what the implications of it are.

As with many of my discoveries in life I stumbled across the meaning of it today while looking for something else.

How about all of you? Have you had this figured out for a long time? Or, has the phrase never even caught your attention?

I'm not going to say, at least at first what I've found but this discovery has really excited me. I'd like to hear what you see this phrase as meaning and what it means to you in your spiritual life.

[thx4mercy]

The only time I've heard the phrase discussed was in relation to the verse or verses in Revelation where it talks about the remnant keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus.

One idea is that in order to be a part of the remnant at the end of time, we will need to have the kind of faith that Jesus had in His father.

[Gibs]

To me it means absolute implicit faith that what you ask aright will be done. Like the woman who touched the hem of Jesus's Garment, it was her faith that made her whole.

We need to grow and have that faith now for what is coming upon the earth and is already beginning. We must become fully dedicated, all on the alter.

Wholy thine Lord and not a whit witheld!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

The only time I've heard the phrase discussed was in relation to the verse or verses in Revelation where it talks about the remnant keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus.

One idea is that in order to be a part of the remnant at the end of time, we will need to have the kind of faith that Jesus had in His father.

[thx4mercy]

Does this change your perception of the verse?

Paul says we are justified by the faith of Jesus. Ever noticed this before? He's not saying we're justified by our faith in Jesus, but by the faith of Jesus.

Joeb, yes, I see the point you are bringing out. I can agree with what it is that justifies us. But I think that people who end up being saved will be ones that have a total trust in Him, like He had of His Father. Maybe I'm going in circles.

[Gibs]

No doubt the "faith of Jesus" is an imputed merit given us. For us perhaps to have the total faith of Jesus would be like us saying we have Gods Love. The problem is, can we as finite men and women compare to Gods Love or Christ's Faith?

Jesus Christ was one of us but also God with us and a deep union of man and Deity that we are not able to fathom yet.

So can the finite equal the infinite?

Just some thoughts,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Does this change your perception of the verse?

Paul says we are justified by the faith of Jesus. Ever noticed this before? He's not saying we're justified by our faith in Jesus, but by the faith of Jesus.

Joeb, yes, I see the point you are bringing out. I can agree with what it is that justifies us. But I think that people who end up being saved will be ones that have a total trust in Him, like He had of His Father. Maybe I'm going in circles.

I don't think you're going in circles.

You're going to the same point I am, I think, but taking a short cut getting there. I think it's important to understand how the SOP and the Bible get us to that point for it clears up some of the misunderstandings about righteousness by faith and how we are to overcome sin.

Like I said in the original post here I'm just beginning to really get my head wrapped around why the "faith of Jesus" both justifies and sanctifies us. This has led on me on a trail of connecting ideas in both the SOP and the Bible that I have never really heard taught before. Maybe they have been being taught and I've just missed it.

[joeb]

Ping Ted Opplinger.

You're a pretty good theologian so I'd like to see your thoughts on this.

[joeb]

No doubt the "faith of Jesus" is an imputed merit given us. For us perhaps to have the total faith of Jesus would be like us saying we have Gods Love. The problem is, can we as finite men and women compare to Gods Love or Christ's Faith?

Jesus Christ was one of us but also God with us and a deep union of man and Deity that we are not able to fathom yet.

So can the finite equal the infinite?

Just some thoughts,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ping Ted Opplinger.

You're a pretty good theologian so I'd like to see your thoughts on this.

Ping back....I am following along, and will comment in a day or two - I have a few time constraints this week, so this week, I do not have the time I normally do to post on topics as this.

My $0.02 on a topic titled this would start with the questions, "How did Jesus define real faith?" (as in, examples of what Jesus Himself declared what exemplified faith), and "How did Jesus realize this same definition in Himself?"

There are several examples where Christ definitively declares what real faith is, and Christ did indeed confess this exact same point as what His experience before the Father revolved around.

The remnant is to have "the faith of Jesus" - meaning, we are to live and walk in the same kind of faith Christ Jesus Himself lived and walked by.

Blessings,

[phkrause]

Interesting comment Ted. I'm inclined to agree, but would like to add, that Jesus did nothing of himself. Everything he did in Faith, that his father would answer all his prays. This to me is what the Faith of Jesus means.

[joeb]

Interesting comment Ted. I'm inclined to agree, but would like to add, that Jesus did nothing of himself. Everything he did in Faith, that his father would answer all his prays. This to me is what the Faith of Jesus means.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Ping Ted Opplinger.

You're a pretty good theologian so I'd like to see your thoughts on this.

Ping back....I am following along, and will comment in a day or two - I have a few time constraints this week, so this week, I do not have the time I normally do to post on topics as this.

My $0.02 on a topic titled this would start with the questions, "How did Jesus define real faith?" (as in, examples of what Jesus Himself declared what exemplified faith), and "How did Jesus realize this same definition in Himself?"

There are several examples where Christ definitively declares what real faith is, and Christ did indeed confess this exact same point as what His experience before the Father revolved around.

The remnant is to have "the faith of Jesus" - meaning, we are to live and walk in the same kind of faith Christ Jesus Himself lived and walked by.

Blessings,

I'll be looking forward to what you have to say.

[Ted Oplinger]

Interesting comment Ted. I'm inclined to agree, but would like to add, that Jesus did nothing of himself. Everything he did in Faith, that his father would answer all his prays. This to me is what the Faith of Jesus means.

Then...allow me to rephrase the issue this way: What did the Father define as faith through Jesus, in how He instructed Jesus to declare what faith is to us?

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Do we all have the same measure? Can we grow in faith? Does any have the same measure as Christ?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Do we all have the same measure? Can we grow in faith? Does any have the same measure as Christ?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The point of Scripture, Gibs, is not whether we are all given the same measure/portion of faith. The point of scripture is what to we allow God to do through us with the portion/measure we are given...

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Ted, I find we can grow in faith and are to pray for it. The better we have come to know Him the greater our faith becomes.

We need to know Him as fully as we can fill ourselves and that is from Him, His Word and Spirit.

We soon are going to have to live by faith as few have I am afraid.

"What we want is that faith that will not let go, a faith that will not fail or be discouraged. I know your faith is to be tried, and I know theanner(the banner ) of truth has got to be lifted in places all around here. "Why," says one, "how can we do all this if the Lord is coming so soon?" Why, the Lord can do more in one hour than we can do in a whole lifetime, and when He sees that His people are fully consecrated, let me tell you a great work will be done in a short time, and the message of truth is to be carried into the dark places of the earth, where it has never been proclaimed." {1SAT 306.5}

Mr 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

"Christ's coming is nearer than when we believed. Every passing day leaves us one less to proclaim the message of warning to the world. Would that there were today more earnest intercession with God, greater humility, greater purity, and greater faith." {Mar 121.2}

A prophet usually sees things in the "now", so what now of our time, do not the signs tell us we are at the very end?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

To begin to build, I will state that whenever the apostles faced a rough spot, they always turned to Christ and requested an increase of faith. Christ always responded thus: "If you had the faith of a mustard seed, you would say to this (tree/mountain), be uprooted, and planted in the sea, and it would obey you".

Christ rebuked them gently here when they thought of faith being on a sliding scale - little faith for little things, but bigger faith for bigger things. Christ told them just a tiny faith does all things - more specifically, those things considered impossible for people to do.

Faith creates a reality where it is humanly impossible for people to do.

Jesus defined faith through many events in the course of His ministry. The easiest to see where a specific reaction is declared "faith" is seen where Christ healed the Roman Centurion's servant, and a few chapters later in His dealings with the Syro-Phoenician woman.

Matthew 8:5-13 provides the backdrop for my illustration - it is the shorter account, and quicker to the final point. After healing the leper, Jesus next faces a request from a centurion: "Lord, my slave is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." (verse 6)

A note here - this is not the average centurion. The vast majority of centurions under Rome's command would have simply slain a slave who was so sick they could no longer be productive. This centurion saw the God-given dignity of humanity his slave had, and was moved to see this slave healed. However, the healing of this slave was humanly impossible - not even the pain could be relieved. The centurion was powerless to even relieve the pain, much less take away the paralysis.

Christ issues a simple statement - "I will come and heal him." (verse 7)

It did not matter to Christ which "people group" this centurion was in - he brushed aside the Jews' own lauding of the centurion's worthiness in the account seen in Luke 7. He was willing to heal a Gentile's servant as much as a nobleman's son (john 4:46-54) or a synagogue official's daughter (Mark 5:21-24; 35-43).

All lauding aside, this centurion did not see himself as worthy before Christ. "Just say the word, and my slave will be healed." (verse 8)

This centurion was no theologian - but he related this to something he was quite familiar with - the power of command authority. (verse 9)

In appealing to Christ as Lord, this centurion is believing Christ has the authority to command healing. It is, in fact, an appeal to the Creator - to speak the very words which produce the work of healing his slave.

It is here that Jesus stops in amazement. This is no ordinary plea for help - the centurion is appealing to Christ to work as the Creator on the his behalf, to speak the words of power which will do the very thing the centurion cannot do by any human means: heal his slave.

This is something Christ has not encountered at any point in His life among people. He turns to the crowd, and makes the following declaration; "I have not found such great faith in anyone, not even in Israel"

This centurion had but a tiny measure of faith, but Christ called it "great faith" that not even His disciples (who were "in Israel") had.

What is it Christ defines as "great faith" here?

Quite simply, it is the dependence on the implicit trust/belief in the spoken word of God to bring into existence the very thing it is impossible to do by that which is within human ability to accomplish .

What is it we are told about the word of God?

Isaiah 55:11 "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth: it will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."

When our Creator God speaks, His word contains the Divine power to create that which He speaks of - it brings into existence the very thing which previously did not exist.

In Matthew 8, the centurion here requests Jesus to speak the word of healing - words which will A) bring into existence that which does not exist (namely, healing from the pain and paralysis), and do that which he sees is beyond human power or ability to do.

This centurion is depending upon this trust in Christ's spoken words to do what is impossible for him to do. Christ declares this to be the very example (definition) of what faith - even "great faith" - is.

We see the very same example 7 chapters later, in Matthew 15:21-28, with the Syro-Phoenician woman.

Her daughter is not there. The only thing this woman has, to depend upon to do the work of casting out this demon from her daughter, is the spoken word of Christ. After the brief lesson on acceptance given to His disciples, Christ turns to her, because her continual pressing of her demand has demonstrated she is indeed depending upon Him to speak the very words which will do the work she cannot herself do by her own ability or power - cast a demon out of her daughter. Christ here illustrates that even those regarded as the lowest and most unworthy of people, may come to Christ and depend upon His spoken word to do for them what they cannot possibly do themselves.

Christ again calls this "great faith".

It is the context of these situations which declare these things to be, so I am assured I am not reading into Scripture what is not there. In essence, it is the natural flow from His own affirmation of Deuteronomy 8:3 - "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God". (Matthew 4:4)

Every word which does not return back to God empty. Every word which accomplishes what He spoke it for.

This is precisely how Jesus Christ lived among us - by dependence upon the God's word...just as we must. That is...the faith of Christ.

Habbakuk 2:4b - "the righteous shall live by his faith."

The tiny faith of a mustard seed - accesses the very power of God contained in His word - and brings into existence that which is impossible by human ability or power. That is why Christ said such faith could command trees and mountains to be uprooted and planted in the sea, and it would immediately be so.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, I find we can grow in faith and are to pray for it. The better we have come to know Him the greater our faith becomes.

We need to know Him as fully as we can fill ourselves and that is from Him, His Word and Spirit.

We soon are going to have to live by faith as few have I am afraid.

"What we want is that faith that will not let go, a faith that will not fail or be discouraged. I know your faith is to be tried, and I know theanner(the banner ) of truth has got to be lifted in places all around here. "Why," says one, "how can we do all this if the Lord is coming so soon?" Why, the Lord can do more in one hour than we can do in a whole lifetime, and when He sees that His people are fully consecrated, let me tell you a great work will be done in a short time, and the message of truth is to be carried into the dark places of the earth, where it has never been proclaimed." {1SAT 306.5}

Mr 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

"Christ's coming is nearer than when we believed. Every passing day leaves us one less to proclaim the message of warning to the world. Would that there were today more earnest intercession with God, greater humility, greater purity, and greater faith." {Mar 121.2}

A prophet usually sees things in the "now", so what now of our time, do not the signs tell us we are at the very end?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

And your examples, Gibs, are but the faith of a mustard seed.

I find I do not GROW my faith, but become ever more confident in exercising that which the Lord has given. Christ calls the little bit given, exercised rightly, "great faith". See above...

Blessings,

[Gibs]

"Perseverance in prayer has been made a condition of receiving. We must pray always if we would grow in faith and experience. We are to be “instant in prayer,” to “continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving.” Romans 12:12; Colossians 4:2. Peter exhorts believers to be “sober, and watch unto prayer.” 1 Peter 4:7. Paul directs, “In everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.” Philippians 4:6. “But ye, beloved,” says Jude, “praying in the Holy Ghost, keep yourselves in the love of God.” Jude 20, 21.—(Steps to Christ, 95-97.) {Pr 103.2}

If we render to Him only a partial, halfhearted obedience, His promises will not be fulfilled to us."—(Ministry of Healing, 227.) {Pr 103.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

To begin to build, I will state that whenever the apostles faced a rough spot, they always turned to Christ and requested an increase of faith. Christ always responded thus: "If you had the faith of a mustard seed, you would say to this (tree/mountain), be uprooted, and planted in the sea, and it would obey you".

Christ rebuked them gently here when they thought of faith being on a sliding scale - little faith for little things, but bigger faith for bigger things. Christ told them just a tiny faith does all things - more specifically, those things considered impossible for people to do.

Faith creates a reality where it is humanly impossible for people to do.

Jesus defined faith through many events in the course of His ministry. The easiest to see where a specific reaction is declared "faith" is seen where Christ healed the Roman Centurion's servant, and a few chapters later in His dealings with the Syro-Phoenician woman.

Matthew 8:5-13 provides the backdrop for my illustration - it is the shorter account, and quicker to the final point. After healing the leper, Jesus next faces a request from a centurion: "Lord, my slave is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." (verse 6)

A note here - this is not the average centurion. The vast majority of centurions under Rome's command would have simply slain a slave who was so sick they could no longer be productive. This centurion saw the God-given dignity of humanity his slave had, and was moved to see this slave healed. However, the healing of this slave was humanly impossible - not even the pain could be relieved. The centurion was powerless to even relieve the pain, much less take away the paralysis.

Christ issues a simple statement - "I will come and heal him." (verse 7)

It did not matter to Christ which "people group" this centurion was in - he brushed aside the Jews' own lauding of the centurion's worthiness in the account seen in Luke 7. He was willing to heal a Gentile's servant as much as a nobleman's son (john 4:46-54) or a synagogue official's daughter (Mark 5:21-24; 35-43).

All lauding aside, this centurion did not see himself as worthy before Christ. "Just say the word, and my slave will be healed." (verse 8)

This centurion was no theologian - but he related this to something he was quite familiar with - the power of command authority. (verse 9)

In appealing to Christ as Lord, this centurion is believing Christ has the authority to command healing. It is, in fact, an appeal to the Creator - to speak the very words which produce the work of healing his slave.

It is here that Jesus stops in amazement. This is no ordinary plea for help - the centurion is appealing to Christ to work as the Creator on the his behalf, to speak the words of power which will do the very thing the centurion cannot do by any human means: heal his slave.

This is something Christ has not encountered at any point in His life among people. He turns to the crowd, and makes the following declaration; "I have not found such great faith in anyone, not even in Israel"

This centurion had but a tiny measure of faith, but Christ called it "great faith" that not even His disciples (who were "in Israel") had.

What is it Christ defines as "great faith" here?

Quite simply, it is the dependence on the implicit trust/belief in the spoken word of God to bring into existence the very thing it is impossible to do by that which is within human ability to accomplish .

What is it we are told about the word of God?

Isaiah 55:11 "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth: it will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."

When our Creator God speaks, His word contains the Divine power to create that which He speaks of - it brings into existence the very thing which previously did not exist.

In Matthew 8, the centurion here requests Jesus to speak the word of healing - words which will A) bring into existence that which does not exist (namely, healing from the pain and paralysis), and do that which he sees is beyond human power or ability to do.

This centurion is depending upon this trust in Christ's spoken words to do what is impossible for him to do. Christ declares this to be the very example (definition) of what faith - even "great faith" - is.

We see the very same example 7 chapters later, in Matthew 15:21-28, with the Syro-Phoenician woman.

Her daughter is not there. The only thing this woman has, to depend upon to do the work of casting out this demon from her daughter, is the spoken word of Christ. After the brief lesson on acceptance given to His disciples, Christ turns to her, because her continual pressing of her demand has demonstrated she is indeed depending upon Him to speak the very words which will do the work she cannot herself do by her own ability or power - cast a demon out of her daughter. Christ here illustrates that even those regarded as the lowest and most unworthy of people, may come to Christ and depend upon His spoken word to do for them what they cannot possibly do themselves.

Christ again calls this "great faith".

It is the context of these situations which declare these things to be, so I am assured I am not reading into Scripture what is not there. In essence, it is the natural flow from His own affirmation of Deuteronomy 8:3 - "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God". (Matthew 4:4)

Every word which does not return back to God empty. Every word which accomplishes what He spoke it for.

This is precisely how Jesus Christ lived among us - by dependence upon the God's word...just as we must. That is...the faith of Christ.

Habbakuk 2:4b - "the righteous shall live by his faith."

The tiny faith of a mustard seed - accesses the very power of God contained in His word - and brings into existence that which is impossible by human ability or power. That is why Christ said such faith could command trees and mountains to be uprooted and planted in the sea, and it would immediately be so.

Blessings,

Ted,

We're getting to pretty much the same place, but by slightly different examples and a few different texts, and pretty divergent reasoning.

We are also diverging on how we increase our faith.

Jesus had implicit faith in His Father, not because He asked for faith, for increased faith, etc... but because He knew His Father intimately. He knew His Father was absolutely trustworthy because He knew Him.

Abraham had the faith to offer up Isaac, and still believe God's promise to him that through Isaac his seed would be as plentiful as the stars in the sky. How? Because Abraham was "the friend of God". He knew God intimately. They were friends.

Enoch "walked with God" to the point that one day God translated him. They were so close, knew each other so well, that translating Enoch was the next logical step in their friendship. Now don't ask for chapter and verse on that. I can't give it. But it is definitely implied in both the Bible and the SOP.

So, how does our faith grow? By asking for it to grow? No. It grows because we concentrate on getting to know our heavenly Father better each and every day. The more intimate our friendship with God becomes the more our faith in God grows. Just as obedience is product of faith, so faith is product of our friendship with God.

Is this making sense to you, and everyone else, so far? If not, let's discuss this. Well, lets discuss this even if you agree.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Interesting comment Ted. I'm inclined to agree, but would like to add, that Jesus did nothing of himself. Everything he did in Faith, that his father would answer all his prays. This to me is what the Faith of Jesus means.

Then...allow me to rephrase the issue this way: What did the Father define as faith through Jesus, in how He instructed Jesus to declare what faith is to us?

Blessings,

Not sure I'd answer any differently

[Ted Oplinger]

Joeb,

I came to this Biblical defining of faith via a long path of years of study - putting the subject away, then coming again to from a different angle. It all led back to this very simple format.

We aren't diverging at all. We are speaking to two sides of the very same coin. My thought process to get there, though, does not seem to be the usual path most people take to get to the same destination.

From my point of view, faith doesn't just trust God because He is the penultimate of trustworthiness; faith takes hold of the very power God gives His word spoken to us, to do that which we cannot do ourselves, or what we cannot see possibly being done by our human experience.

Faith declares, "God, your will be done in/through me, even though I cannot see how it is possible" - it is the very essence of the Lord's prayer found in the words, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10).

Faith trusts the power of God contained in His Word just as much as it trusts the One who speaks it.

Not only did Jesus trust the Father implicitly in obeying the Father's instructions, He trusted the Divine power His Father put into those words of instruction, to do those things impossible for His humanity to do of its own strength and power, like....

...going 40 days with no food or water, an impossible thing to do - but Jesus trusted His Father's Word would sustain Him through the trial, no matter how impossible it would appear to be.

...walking on water, another impossible thing to do, but Jesus trusted the power of His Father's Word to even defy gravity in walking out to His tired and weary disciples toiling against the storm.

By that same power, Peter trusted in the same spoken Divine power to get out of the boat and go to Christ at His calling - also defying gravity to do so.

Likewise Abraham, offering up his son...his "only begotten son"...as a burnt offering on Mt. Moriah. A "burnt offering" meant there would only be ashes left. Abraham declared God's will to be done - even if it meant the impossibility of God's command being at cross purposes to how he understood God's Covenant promise was to unfold through Isaac. Abraham did not lie to his servants he told to remain behind - "We will go and worship, and will return" (Genesis 22:5)- indicating Abraham understood that God's promise carried with it the power to fulfill His promise even to the point of being able to raise Isaac up from the ashes to life again. Abraham truly did see Christ's day in this experience - and was glad God's power backed up the word of God's trustworthiness.

Abraham had to learn how to exercise his weak faith, to come to know the power God puts in His word. He trusted God for decades, going wherever God told him to go - yet Abraham never unlocked the power behind God's initial promise to him until ALL human possibility of fulfilling the promise was brought to naught. That is when Abraham began to exercise his faith.

Is it not the same for us in our walk? Thinking we are trusting Him when we are putting our human ability in harmony with His will? In truth, though, we don't exercise faith to unlock the power behind God's commands and promises until life's circumstance cuts "our abilities" to do God's word out from underneath us...only then do we realize what He means when He says His "power is perfected in weakness" - when it appears impossible to do that which we thought we could do.

Likewise Elijah declared God's will be done, even if it meant the impossibilities/improbabilities of going into a guarded palace, pronounce the words of drought and famine, flee that palace unhindered, then flee as a hunted man in the wilderness for 3 and 1/2 years with no apparent means to survive the elements - another human impossibility. But Elijah not only trusted the Living God, he knew those words spoken to him carried with it the very means to sustain in that time...even if it meant eating unclean food collected by the unclean ravens.

By trusting in the power of God's word, Elijah prayed not just once...but seven times, persisting because he knew that word carried with it the power to produce the abundance of rain. One little tiny cloud in the whole sky meant torrents were coming.

The following showdown with the 400 prophets of Baal was his high point - yet, Elijah's faith faltered, but not in his trust of God - it was in not trusting that the same power that sustained him throughout the years to this point would continue to protect and sustain, no matter what Jezebel threatened. The result - he ran away, when he should have stood fast. Even as he blindly ran...God gave evidence His power was still there...sustaining Elijah all the way down the Sinai peninsula, where he finally stopped long enough to hear God whisper into his ear - "Elijah - what are you doing here?".

Faith is exercised, just like a muscle. We don't grow extra muscles when we work out - we bring the muscles our bodies are designed to have to full fitness, mass, and size by working them. Our muscles aren't grown - they are built up to their maximum potential.

Faith is the same way - the more we trust not just our Living God, but the power in the word He speaks to each and every one of us seeking His will to be done in/through us - we find there the power which creates the reality, where the human mind ordinarily sees the impossible and improbable. Faith "is the evidence of things unseen" because it takes hold of what God has spoken to you and knows the Divine power creates the reality.

Faith can be exercised to its maximum potential exercised - or left to atrophy and be weak. Yet, the Bible testimony is clear that even when we do exercise it...we can still falter when we should stand fast.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

" Throughout the history of God's people great mountains of difficulty, apparently insurmountable, have loomed up before those who were trying to carry out the purposes of Heaven. Such obstacles are permitted by the Lord as a test of faith. When we are hedged about on every side, this is the time above all others to trust in God and in the power of His Spirit. The exercise of a living faith means an increase of spiritual strength and the development of an unfaltering trust. It is thus that the soul becomes a conquering power. Before the demand of faith, the obstacles placed by Satan across the pathway of the Christian will disappear; for the powers of heaven will come to his aid. "Nothing shall be impossible unto you." {CC 258.3}

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

" The man of sin thinks to change times and laws. He is exalting himself above God, in trying to compel the conscience. But God's people should work with persevering energy to let their light shine upon the people in regard to the law, and thus to withstand the enemies of God and his truth. When the law of God has been made void, and apostasy becomes a national sin, the Lord will work in behalf of his people. Their extremity will be his opportunity. He will manifest his power in behalf of his church. {RH, December 24, 1889 par. 5}

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

"To prevent all possibility of release, Peter had been put under the charge of sixteen soldiers, who, in different watches, guarded him day and night. In his cell he was placed between two soldiers and was bound by two chains, each chain being fastened to the wrist of one of the soldiers. He was unable to move without their knowledge. With the prison doors securely fastened, and a strong guard before them, all chance of rescue or escape through human means was cut off. But man's extremity is God's opportunity. {AA 145.4}

BUT!

" Peter was confined in a rock-hewn cell, the doors of which were strongly bolted and barred; and the soldiers on guard were made answerable for the safekeeping of the prisoner. But the bolts and bars and the Roman guard, which effectually cut off all possibility of human aid, were but to make more complete the triumph of God in the deliverance of Peter. Herod was lifting his hand against Omnipotence, and he was to be utterly defeated. By the putting forth of His might, God was about to save the precious life that the Jews were plotting to destroy. {AA 146.1}

OUR faith is not too far from being tested too as to what kind of "mettle" it is!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Joeb,

I came to this Biblical defining of faith via a long path of years of study - putting the subject away, then coming again to from a different angle. It all led back to this very simple format.

We aren't diverging at all. We are speaking to two sides of the very same coin. My thought process to get there, though, does not seem to be the usual path most people take to get to the same destination.

From my point of view, faith doesn't just trust God because He is the penultimate of trustworthiness; faith takes hold of the very power God gives His word spoken to us, to do that which we cannot do ourselves, or what we cannot see possibly being done by our human experience.

Faith declares, "God, your will be done in/through me, even though I cannot see how it is possible" - it is the very essence of the Lord's prayer found in the words, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10).

Faith trusts the power of God contained in His Word just as much as it trusts the One who speaks it.

Not only did Jesus trust the Father implicitly in obeying the Father's instructions, He trusted the Divine power His Father put into those words of instruction, to do those things impossible for His humanity to do of its own strength and power, like....

...going 40 days with no food or water, an impossible thing to do - but Jesus trusted His Father's Word would sustain Him through the trial, no matter how impossible it would appear to be.

...walking on water, another impossible thing to do, but Jesus trusted the power of His Father's Word to even defy gravity in walking out to His tired and weary disciples toiling against the storm.

By that same power, Peter trusted in the same spoken Divine power to get out of the boat and go to Christ at His calling - also defying gravity to do so.

Likewise Abraham, offering up his son...his "only begotten son"...as a burnt offering on Mt. Moriah. A "burnt offering" meant there would only be ashes left. Abraham declared God's will to be done - even if it meant the impossibility of God's command being at cross purposes to how he understood God's Covenant promise was to unfold through Isaac. Abraham did not lie to his servants he told to remain behind - "We will go and worship, and will return" (Genesis 22:5)- indicating Abraham understood that God's promise carried with it the power to fulfill His promise even to the point of being able to raise Isaac up from the ashes to life again. Abraham truly did see Christ's day in this experience - and was glad God's power backed up the word of God's trustworthiness.

Abraham had to learn how to exercise his weak faith, to come to know the power God puts in His word. He trusted God for decades, going wherever God told him to go - yet Abraham never unlocked the power behind God's initial promise to him until ALL human possibility of fulfilling the promise was brought to naught. That is when Abraham began to exercise his faith.

Is it not the same for us in our walk? Thinking we are trusting Him when we are putting our human ability in harmony with His will? In truth, though, we don't exercise faith to unlock the power behind God's commands and promises until life's circumstance cuts "our abilities" to do God's word out from underneath us...only then do we realize what He means when He says His "power is perfected in weakness" - when it appears impossible to do that which we thought we could do.

Likewise Elijah declared God's will be done, even if it meant the impossibilities/improbabilities of going into a guarded palace, pronounce the words of drought and famine, flee that palace unhindered, then flee as a hunted man in the wilderness for 3 and 1/2 years with no apparent means to survive the elements - another human impossibility. But Elijah not only trusted the Living God, he knew those words spoken to him carried with it the very means to sustain in that time...even if it meant eating unclean food collected by the unclean ravens.

By trusting in the power of God's word, Elijah prayed not just once...but seven times, persisting because he knew that word carried with it the power to produce the abundance of rain. One little tiny cloud in the whole sky meant torrents were coming.

The following showdown with the 400 prophets of Baal was his high point - yet, Elijah's faith faltered, but not in his trust of God - it was in not trusting that the same power that sustained him throughout the years to this point would continue to protect and sustain, no matter what Jezebel threatened. The result - he ran away, when he should have stood fast. Even as he blindly ran...God gave evidence His power was still there...sustaining Elijah all the way down the Sinai peninsula, where he finally stopped long enough to hear God whisper into his ear - "Elijah - what are you doing here?".

Faith is exercised, just like a muscle. We don't grow extra muscles when we work out - we bring the muscles our bodies are designed to have to full fitness, mass, and size by working them. Our muscles aren't grown - they are built up to their maximum potential.

Faith is the same way - the more we trust not just our Living God, but the power in the word He speaks to each and every one of us seeking His will to be done in/through us - we find there the power which creates the reality, where the human mind ordinarily sees the impossible and improbable. Faith "is the evidence of things unseen" because it takes hold of what God has spoken to you and knows the Divine power creates the reality.

Faith can be exercised to its maximum potential exercised - or left to atrophy and be weak. Yet, the Bible testimony is clear that even when we do exercise it...we can still falter when we should stand fast.

Blessings,

Ted,

I don't disagree with a word you said. That said, I think you're kind of missing the source and point of everything you said. Everything you talked about boils down to building a friendship with God based upon His word and our experience with Him. In other words, getting to know God. The fact that God is God, and as such has unlimited resources and power is nothing other than one of His attributes that we become familiar with as we get to know Him.

To me trust in God comes the same way it does with any other relationship we have with another person. If they are trustworthy, if they are honest, if their word is good, etc... we learn to trust that person. All those things are found out about a person only through personal experience with that person.

How do we get to know God? Through His word. Through experiencing the fact that He is faithful to keep His promises. Through prayer, for part of getting to know somebody is our half of the communication we have with them.

There's a very good reason for Ellen White saying "when we know God as it is our privilege to know Him" that our lives will be one of continual obedience. That reason is because when we know Him well enough to let Him into the very essence of our beings, the most secret places of our hearts, He can then heal those areas of our hearts. Until we know Him well enough to trust Him with our deepest darkest secrets we won't let Him in to heal us. And, God cannot heal any part of us without our permission.

As far as the way you learn, well, welcome to the club. I seem to learn differently than most people do too. I actually see the way you express yourself on this subject as far more common than the way I do. Very few of us express our theology in terms of friendship with God.

Remember what Jesus said to His disciples? He said, I no longer call you servants, I call you friends.