"Faith of Jesus"

[Ted Oplinger]

I am missing the point of my own words? Oy...that's a new one...

Joeb, being "friends with God" has been the gospel message here for 2-3 decades - as long as I've been a Christian...and that has brought the Remnant no closer to realizing the faith of Christ than any of the Amazing Facts or It Is Written studies have, nor any of the popular Doug Batchelor messages depicting God as our friend.

Maybe your neck of the woods has been different

I not sure I was clear in my explanation of Abraham. If I was, forgive me for repeating here..

.Abraham was a "friend of God" for decades, and yet never did clue into the fact God fulfills His promise by His power that attends that promise.

Abraham was a friend of God...and yet tried every earthly and humanly way to achieve the realization of God's promise, until at last it was not humanly possible anymore.

Being a friend of God (in and of itself) got Abraham no closer to realizing the promise of God than any of his works to achieve the same over the course of 4 decades. There is a BIG difference between being a friend who worships and trusts in the day-to-day life, and being one who unlocks the power of that Friend's word.

It is possible to be a friend of someone for a very long time - even trust them implicitly - and still not know the power within that friend.

That was where Abraham was, until that day when he was 99 years old, all but dead in that respect of activity (Hebrews 11:12), and Christ visited him and put that promise again before Abraham. Sara laughed because she KNEW her husband was impotent. The ONLY way that Promise of God was going to happen, was by the very power God put into that promise for Abraham and Sara. Not as God the Friend, but as God Who Makes Things Happen.

Only this point did Abraham pause to consider there was more to the friendship than God/friend. This is when he began trusting the power God puts with His promise...after 4 decades of being a friend of God. Yet, it didn't have to take 4 decades of friendship for him to reach this point. Another decade would pass before God would call Abraham to his Mt. Moriah experience - and Abraham would demonstrate he trusted implicitly both the friendship and the power of God in his behalf.

I would posit that this is where a good many of us are - being friends with God, yet not realizing His power in life fully. We think to realize that power, we must "increase our faith", or "increase the depth of our friendship"...but that's not what my Bible study, or my experience, has taught me through the years. While friendship and the power of faith are two sides of the same coin, friendship alone does not automatically lead to the power of faith quickly.

NOW...

Take a look at 2 Kings 2:13, 14.

Here, Elisha has just received the mantle of Elijah after Elijah was taken to heaven right before Elisha's own eyes. Look at the words he uses to call to God in verse 14. Does that look like the cry of one who has a life-long friendship with God? No, rather, it looks like Elisha is rather distant from God here, as he is not making God his own God here - he refers to God as "the God of Elijah" (the God of a prophet) - similar in ways to many who were distant from friendship to God (like Saul in 1 Samuel 15:21 - "the Lord your God"). Every friend of God I read of in the Bible makes a personal identification with God (the Lord my God) that is explicitly missing here at the very beginning of Elisha's ministry as prophet.

Elisha is quite the obedient worshiper, a loyal servant, of God - but not a friend, as he is apparently not comfortable even making a personal identification with God.

This same Elisha, though, did know that power attended God and His word - and this was his appeal to God. Not to God as Friend, but to God Who Makes Things Happen. Elijah had anointed Elisha and pronounced him by God's word to be the next prophet of Israel. Elisha reasoned that if this were indeed true - that if God were indeed the God of a prophet, the power of God will flow from that pronouncement - and the river Jordan parted when the mantle slapped down upon the water's surface, just as it did earlier for Elijah. Elisha's friendship with God grew later - we see it very well in play in 2 Kings 4 & 5.

My point with Elisha is that he realized the power of God far quicker than did Abraham after 4 decades of friendship. It did not take a close friendship with God to access it. All it took was knowing there was power to flow from God's pronouncement. Elisha "got to know God better" after he realized the power which attended the word spoken to him.

My point here: a person can spend a lifetime walking with God as a friend - yet never clue into realizing the power contained in the promise until very late in the game; the converse, though is not true: a person cannot realize and appreciate the power attending the Promise of the Word without quickly becoming God's friend thereafter.

To build that friendship with God quickly...realize the power of God in His Word to you quickly. Christ taught this with many people. The Roman centurion and the Syro-Phoenician woman didn't regard Christ with friendship, yet they realized the faith of Christ far quicker than any of His disciples did (who had the luxury of 3.5 years 24/7 with Christ). In appreciating Christ's power on their behalf, they could not help BUT be friends and worshipers of the Living God later.

For the message of the faith of Christ to be received by the world in the very last of the Gospel wrap-up, it must be given to a people who do not have decades, years, or even months or days, to form a friendship with God to realize the power attending His Word to cleanse effectively from all sin in life (including power to completely overcome the flesh on this side of the resurrection) just prior to Christ making His fateful pronunciation in Revelation 22:11. They must appeal to God as the One Who Makes It Happen- just as Elisha did.

Quite simply - while God is our friend, time today is decidedly not.

Blessings,

[joeb]

I am missing the point of my own words? Oy...that's a new one...

Joeb, being "friends with God" has been the gospel message here for 2-3 decades - as long as I've been a Christian...and that has brought the Remnant no closer to realizing the faith of Christ than any of the Amazing Facts or It Is Written studies have, nor any of the popular Doug Batchelor messages depicting God as our friend.

Maybe your neck of the woods has been different

I not sure I was clear in my explanation of Abraham. If I was, forgive me for repeating here..

.Abraham was a "friend of God" for decades, and yet never did clue into the fact God fulfills His promise by His power that attends that promise.

Abraham was a friend of God...and yet tried every earthly and humanly way to achieve the realization of God's promise, until at last it was not humanly possible anymore.

Being a friend of God (in and of itself) got Abraham no closer to realizing the promise of God than any of his works to achieve the same over the course of 4 decades. There is a BIG difference between being a friend who worships and trusts in the day-to-day life, and being one who unlocks the power of that Friend's word.

It is possible to be a friend of someone for a very long time - even trust them implicitly - and still not know the power within that friend.

That was where Abraham was, until that day when he was 99 years old, all but dead in that respect of activity (Hebrews 11:12), and Christ visited him and put that promise again before Abraham. Sara laughed because she KNEW her husband was impotent. The ONLY way that Promise of God was going to happen, was by the very power God put into that promise for Abraham and Sara. Not as God the Friend, but as God Who Makes Things Happen.

Only this point did Abraham pause to consider there was more to the friendship than God/friend. This is when he began trusting the power God puts with His promise...after 4 decades of being a friend of God. Yet, it didn't have to take 4 decades of friendship for him to reach this point. Another decade would pass before God would call Abraham to his Mt. Moriah experience - and Abraham would demonstrate he trusted implicitly both the friendship and the power of God in his behalf.

I would posit that this is where a good many of us are - being friends with God, yet not realizing His power in life fully. We think to realize that power, we must "increase our faith", or "increase the depth of our friendship"...but that's not what my Bible study, or my experience, has taught me through the years. While friendship and the power of faith are two sides of the same coin, friendship alone does not automatically lead to the power of faith quickly.

NOW...

Take a look at 2 Kings 2:13, 14.

Here, Elisha has just received the mantle of Elijah after Elijah was taken to heaven right before Elisha's own eyes. Look at the words he uses to call to God in verse 14. Does that look like the cry of one who has a life-long friendship with God? No, rather, it looks like Elisha is rather distant from God here, as he is not making God his own God here - he refers to God as "the God of Elijah" (the God of a prophet) - similar in ways to many who were distant from friendship to God (like Saul in 1 Samuel 15:21 - "the Lord your God"). Every friend of God I read of in the Bible makes a personal identification with God (the Lord my God) that is explicitly missing here at the very beginning of Elisha's ministry as prophet.

Elisha is quite the obedient worshiper, a loyal servant, of God - but not a friend, as he is apparently not comfortable even making a personal identification with God.

This same Elisha, though, did know that power attended God and His word - and this was his appeal to God. Not to God as Friend, but to God Who Makes Things Happen. Elijah had anointed Elisha and pronounced him by God's word to be the next prophet of Israel. Elisha reasoned that if this were indeed true - that if God were indeed the God of a prophet, the power of God will flow from that pronouncement - and the river Jordan parted when the mantle slapped down upon the water's surface, just as it did earlier for Elijah. Elisha's friendship with God grew later - we see it very well in play in 2 Kings 4 & 5.

My point with Elisha is that he realized the power of God far quicker than did Abraham after 4 decades of friendship. It did not take a close friendship with God to access it. All it took was knowing there was power to flow from God's pronouncement. Elisha "got to know God better" after he realized the power which attended the word spoken to him.

My point here: a person can spend a lifetime walking with God as a friend - yet never clue into realizing the power contained in the promise until very late in the game; the converse, though is not true: a person cannot realize and appreciate the power attending the Promise of the Word without quickly becoming God's friend thereafter.

To build that friendship with God quickly...realize the power of God in His Word to you quickly. Christ taught this with many people. The Roman centurion and the Syro-Phoenician woman didn't regard Christ with friendship, yet they realized the faith of Christ far quicker than any of His disciples did (who had the luxury of 3.5 years 24/7 with Christ). In appreciating Christ's power on their behalf, they could not help BUT be friends and worshipers of the Living God later.

For the message of the faith of Christ to be received by the world in the very last of the Gospel wrap-up, it must be given to a people who do not have decades, years, or even months or days, to form a friendship with God to realize the power attending His Word to cleanse effectively from all sin in life (including power to completely overcome the flesh on this side of the resurrection) just prior to Christ making His fateful pronunciation in Revelation 22:11. They must appeal to God as the One Who Makes It Happen- just as Elisha did.

Quite simply - while God is our friend, time today is decidedly not.

Blessings,

You make good points. Period.

What I mean by saying you are missing the point is this. You say we must realize God's omniopotent power over sin before we build a friendship--relationship--with Him. That boggles my mind.

Here's why. God can do nothing for us in the area of overcoming sin in our lives until we surrender ourselves fully to Him. Can you truly tell me that human beings are going to fully surrender self, the most important thing there is to a sinful human being, to someone they do not know or trust? Someone whom they trust to be their friend? I surely wouldn't, and I don't know anyone who would do that. To tell the truth I don't think you would either. It's completely against human nature to do so.

While friendship with God may have been preached for a while, and I haven't seen a lot of it, the lesson hasn't really sunk into the church as a whole. Just like the correct understanding of RbyF hasn't. These two go hand-in-hand.

[Ted Oplinger]

You make good points. Period.

What I mean by saying you are missing the point is this. You say we must realize God's omniopotent power over sin before we build a friendship--relationship--with Him. That boggles my mind.

[Gerr]

To me it means absolute implicit faith that what you ask aright will be done. Like the woman who touched the hem of Jesus's Garment, it was her faith that made her whole.

To me the faith of Jesus is trusting and clinging to God even when what you ask for aright is not granted.

[Gerr]

The remnant is to have "the faith of Jesus" - meaning, we are to live and walk in the same kind of faith Christ Jesus Himself lived and walked by.

Blessings,

I believe the faith of Jesus is the one character quality that could be perfectly reproduced in us, not His sinless perfection.

[Gibs]

I'm a wondering, if Christ is truly in one, if His Faith also isn't imputed in also,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus :

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

The remnant is to have "the faith of Jesus" - meaning, we are to live and walk in the same kind of faith Christ Jesus Himself lived and walked by.

Blessings,

I believe the faith of Jesus is the one character quality that could be perfectly reproduced in us, not His sinless perfection.

[Gerr]

That statement brings up the following question in my mind. If Christ lived His life of perfect obedience to the law by faith, why wouldn't His faith in us produce the same character He had? Remember that He was tempted to degrees far greater than any of us ever will be tempted. Who among us will ever be tempted on appetite by first having gone 40 days and nights without food? And even further, who of us knows he can respond to temptation by using our divine nature to completely blow the tempter away? It had to be a huge temptation. Or, who among us can know that we can just walk away and let the world perish rather than go through what Christ went through in His last day or so of life?

So, to me, the above cancels out the fallen nature issue completely.

There is something you are forgetting, i.e. Jesus was born with holy flesh; we were not. Fallen man is morally rotten through and through. Push the right button and like a knee jerk reflex, you get a sinful response. It totally bypasses the will.

[debbym]

jesus was born with the same flesh we have, he was born though with a heart and mind that never once consented to sin.

once you sin you form a pathway for it to happen again more easily.

everyone of Christs neurological pathways were constantly towards His father's will.

this is the advantage we have when Christ is living in us.

when Christ is dwelling in our hearts by Faith, we have every advantage he had, but we have it by accepting him, and constantly choosing His revealed will..

[Gerr]

jesus was born with the same flesh we have, he was born though with a heart and mind that never once consented to sin.

once you sin you form a pathway for it to happen again more easily.

everyone of Christs neurological pathways were constantly towards His father's will.

this is the advantage we have when Christ is living in us.

when Christ is dwelling in our hearts by Faith, we have every advantage he had, but we have it by accepting him, and constantly choosing His revealed will..

If by "same flesh we have" you mean that if it were cut, it would bleed blood, then I agree with you. Or if injured, He would experience pain like we do, then I would agree with you. But if you mean that He was born with the same wayward inclinations that we are born with, then I totally disagree. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, we are not. We have to be born again. He is the Second Adam; we are children of the fallen Adam. As children of the fallen Adam, the pathway 0f/to sin is ALREADY imprinted in every cell of our bodies.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: debbym

jesus was born with the same flesh we have, he was born though with a heart and mind that never once consented to sin.

once you sin you form a pathway for it to happen again more easily.

everyone of Christs neurological pathways were constantly towards His father's will.

this is the advantage we have when Christ is living in us.

when Christ is dwelling in our hearts by Faith, we have every advantage he had, but we have it by accepting him, and constantly choosing His revealed will..

If by "same flesh we have" you mean that if it were cut, it would bleed blood, then I agree with you. Or if injured, He would experience pain like we do, then I would agree with you. But if you mean that He was born with the same wayward inclinations that we are born with, then I totally disagree. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, we are not. We have to be born again. He is the Second Adam; we are children of the fallen Adam. As children of the fallen Adam, the pathway 0f/to sin is ALREADY imprinted in every cell of our bodies.

So, what I see you saying, Gerry, is this: that even though we have direct access to the divine nature through Christ what you see as "sinful" flesh is more powerful than Christ's divine nature.

What that boils down to, to me, is that you think sin is more powerful than God.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

You make good points. Period.

What I mean by saying you are missing the point is this. You say we must realize God's omniopotent power over sin before we build a friendship--relationship--with Him. That boggles my mind.

Ah....no. You completely missed the points I was making.

First point: A person can be a friend of God for a very long time and yet never connect on the essential point of realizing the power of God in His promise - as evidenced by their continual attempts to make real the promise of God by their very human efforts.

Only when all human ability to achieve the promise is gone do they see God's power realized.

Second point: It is impossible to realize and appreciate the power of God and not quickly become a friend of God afterward.

No one appreciating God's exercise on their behalf withholds surrendering to God - even if all they see is at the time is a refuge of last resort. Neither of these points are mutually exclusive, either.

Originally Posted By: joeb

Here's why. God can do nothing for us in the area of overcoming sin in our lives until we surrender ourselves fully to Him. Can you truly tell me that human beings are going to fully surrender self, the most important thing there is to a sinful human being, to someone they do not know or trust? Someone whom they trust to be their friend? I surely wouldn't, and I don't know anyone who would do that. To tell the truth I don't think you would either. It's completely against human nature to do so.

Depends on your perspective, my friend. People who have nothing left to lose, nowhere else to go, will surrender to whom the know little of.

We both know of the thief on the cross. As he hung on the cross to one side of Jesus, he spent most of his time there joining his companion in casting abuse upon Christ. Very little time did he invest in forging anything of trust in Jesus. Yet, as the reality of a lingering death was setting in, this thief changed his tune - he admonished his companion that while their execution was just, Christ was an innocent man. Then, he made his appeal.

According to the Gospel accounts, the only time Christ spoke to them, or even acknowledged them, was in response to this thief's appeal. Now, this thief did not even have hours to get to know Christ as a friend before this point - yet, with nothing left to lose, he surrendered to Christ.

Now, it is not even clear from the Gospel accounts this thief even had the evidence that something of Christ hanging on the cross was trustworthy of that surrender - we read into the story that he did. The reality, though, is that this thief will be on Day 1 of friendship building beginning on Resurrection Morning.

Next case is the demoniacs of the Gadarenes/Gerasenes. We both know about this story of a pair of men tormented by demons (Matthew's account in 8:28-34). In Mark and Luke, these accounts focus upon only one of this pair. This legion of demons enjoyed tormenting these men, and all those who crossed their path. It appears that one of these men had nothing left to lose in the torment of his possession - and somehow made an appeal to God. After Christ calms the sea, He makes a direct beeline to this feared tombs area.

Now, these demoniacs had spent no time forging trust relationships with Christ. One, we never hear about again. The other sees the power of God exercised on his behalf, and appreciates it - he wants to go everywhere with Christ...but Christ rejects this! Instead, he is told to stay behind, and tell of what Christ has done on his behalf.

In each case, there is little or no trust built prior to the point of surrender. This I find far more prevalent in the Gospel accounts than the case of surrendering to Christ after spending time building a friendship.

What of Matthew Levi - the tax collector Christ called in the very act of collecting taxes? How much time did Matthew in vest forging bonds of trust with God to trust Christ, to simply get up from his tax table and follow Him? As Matthew was a member of the dubious section of society, little to none. He spent the next 3.5 years becoming His friend, though.

I could go on...

I am not saying this MUST ALWAYS be the case - I am saying that time after time, the Bible records people doing just this - God enters the picture as a matter of last refuge, a last recourse of a person (or in the case of Israel, even a whole nation) with nothing left to lose, and now where else to go. Those appreciating this intervention go on to become fast friends of God.

Those who are flaming branches rescued from the very threshold of the hell become some of the deepest devotees to Christ.

Now, I will consider one who had everything to lose: Saul Paulus of Tarsus.

We also know his story - the rising star of the Sanhedrin, studied under the famous (and powerful) Gamaliel. He was so zealous in his devotion to his ideal of who God was, he was willing to persecute...and witness the execution of...Christians. What is little recognized is that to be member of the Sanhedrin, a man must also have married well, and have children.

Saul Paulus had everything to lose that day he set out for Damascus in his misguided zeal for a god of his own reasoning. Then came the Intervention.

Now there was something in Paul's studies which pointed him to Christ, which caused his conscience to be pricked in his zeal to have Christians arrested - Christ refers to this as the goads Paul was kicking every time he persecuted Christians. However, Saul Paulus had not spent time forging trust in the real God - only blindly obedient to his picture of God. Saul had to spend the next 3 days comparing what he experienced that brief moment on the road, versus his years of study...and weighing that into the balance with what he would lose with his decision.

With everything to lose, he chose Christ. Just with his head knowledge alone, he immediately began refuting the local Pharisees and scribes, preaching Christ crucified. After this, Saul changed his name to Paul, and spent the next several years alone with Christ, shut in to forge the relationship that would carry him through the difficult journeys abroad in the years ahead.

Originally Posted By: joeb

While friendship with God may have been preached for a while, and I haven't seen a lot of it, the lesson hasn't really sunk into the church as a whole. Just like the correct understanding of RbyF hasn't. These two go hand-in-hand.

I don't disagree a bit with your final assessment. Where I think we have a parting of views is on what it takes to get people to the point of building that relationship with God. In some cases, forging the friendship over long periods of time does not bring a person closer to to realizing the power that makes Christ's RbyF a reality, because they think they are doing quite fine doing what they are doing.

Blessings,

I think, and don't take this the wrong way as I see you as a far better theologian and Bible scholar than I am, is you're conflating the conversion experience and the long term "living for Christ" experience. These are two greatly different things. The long term "living for Christ" experience takes us deeply into our private selves, much more deeply than our conversion experience. Thus the comments in the SOP how sanctification is the "work" of a lifetime.

From my own experience, at my conversion I realized I was in the wrong, a sinner and a big one at that, but I can truthfully say I had no idea as to how big a sinner I really was until the Holy Spirit began, and has continued to do throughout my life, pointing out sins I didn't realize existed on a consistent basis.

I had no idea upon my conversion that I'd have to give up my hatred for my brother and my old man. It was deep, hidden from me, and by far the hardest thing for me to give up that's been revealed to me so far. It took a long time for me to acknowledge it even existed, and an even longer time to surrender. God didn't even bring it up with me for years. He worked in other areas of my life first. He sort of peeled back the layers of the onion one at a time until I was ready to deal with. Then He gave me the help I needed to deal with it.

I had to really learn to trust God to let Him into those deep dark areas of my life. That does not come quickly to me, and I don't really know anyone who doesn't have some kind of blind spot, to them, in their spiritual lives. God takes each person into these areas when He sees they are ready to deal with them. If He didn't work gently with us, He would basically destroy us. We couldn't handle seeing all our deficiencies at once.

[joeb]

I'm a wondering, if Christ is truly in one, if His Faith also isn't imputed in also,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus :

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

That statement brings up the following question in my mind. If Christ lived His life of perfect obedience to the law by faith, why wouldn't His faith in us produce the same character He had? ....

So, to me, the above cancels out the fallen nature issue completely.

The problem is not in God's omnipotent power; the problem is our sinful nature which we are burdened with till the day we die or Jesus comes and gives us a new body. Notice this passage from GC and see who can pass the judgment other than with the righteousness of Christ ALONE.

"Every man’s work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil,[/u] with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel." GC 481

Wrong word? Selfish act? Unfulfilled duty? Artful dissembling? Reproofs neglected? WASTED MOMENTS? Unimproved opportunities? While I do not WILLFULLY do them, I can guarantee you that I will be guilty of them as long as I'm in "this body of death."

Quote:

“The prince of this world cometh,” said Jesus, “and hath nothing in Me.” John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan’s sophistry. ... DofA p 123

But there are many things in my fallen nature that responds to the promptings of Satan!!! Yes, we are to be partakers of the divine nature, but until we shed this "body of death," Even though I constantly strive for mastery, I will never be completely free of some selfish act, wasted moments, intemperate acts, etc. That's why my only hope is in the imputed perfect righteousness of Christ. His imparted righteousness is an ongoing lifetime project. If any of you have reached beyond this stage, then my congratulations to you.

[debbym]

Quote:

But there are many things in my fallen nature that responds to the promptings of Satan!!! Yes, we are to be partakers of the divine nature, but until we shed this "body of death," Even though I constantly strive for mastery, I will never be completely free of some selfish act, wasted moments, intemperate acts, etc. That's why my only hope is in the imputed perfect righteousness of Christ. His imparted righteousness is an ongoing lifetime project. If any of you have reached beyond this stage, then my congratulations to you.

i agree that we will not be free of our sinful nature till Jesus comes. we are subject to our limitations and errors and weaknesses. when we partake of divine nature, we have a duel nature.

we cannot look to ourselves to see if we are right with God, our sinful nature will not inform us of this. We can exercise faith in His promises though and experience the Holy Spirit.

it is not the individual acts that are the measure of Character, but the tendency of the life, to give glory to sin and self, or to give glory to God. I know my failures can serve to give glory to God, Everything works together for good.

my weaknesses and failures are a constant reminder of Gods kindness and patience and love towards me, when i am unworthy. God does not look for me to become worthy before he saves me, or loves me. and when i become aware of any of the failings of others, i can also freely place them into God's hands, as he is the one full of mercy and graciousness to all.

it is His character of mercy, love, and forgiveness that is perfected in me, in the presence of my failings and the failings of others. This empowers me to enlist all of my being more and more in exercising love, and less energy exercising sin.

this does not excuse sin, but it shows how bad sin is, how deeply rooted it is, and how wonderful it will be when Jesus comes and it is over.

[Ted Oplinger]

I think, and don't take this the wrong way as I see you as a far better theologian and Bible scholar than I am, is you're conflating the conversion experience and the long term "living for Christ" experience. These are two greatly different things. The long term "living for Christ" experience takes us deeply into our private selves, much more deeply than our conversion experience. Thus the comments in the SOP how sanctification is the "work" of a lifetime.

Having read through you post the rest of your post after these words, it's clear to me conflation isn't the issue here. We are speaking to two different points that, though related, are definitely not the same.

I am speaking to the action of the faith of Christ - the dynamic dependence upon the Divine power contained in God's Word/Promise spoken to the person, working upon/through that person and returning back to God the fruits of that work, succeeding in doing whatever it is God declares He wants demonstrated in/through that person.

You are definitively speaking to another process, which is just as important: that of the long-term "take up your cross, and follow Me" as Jesus declares to us.

One can lead to the other...but it isn't a guarantee (there are a fair number of characters illustrated in the Bible who failed on both sides of our discussion here)

In addition, Joe, I'm not speaking precisely of the conversion/repentance process per se, either.

The dynamic of Christ's defining of faith - whether the long-term day-to-day revealed in His life, or in the handling of acute issues in those appealing to Him - remains the same. What I posted earlier were examples of those people who, seeing God was indeed willing to exercise such great power on their behalf when there was no real humanly logical reason to do so, appreciated God's Word on their behalf, and saw the barriers of distrust broken down. They quickly became friends of God.

You spoke of what lay in your heart regarding your brother and father...now think of this in how I perceive the issue:

Romans 10:17 tells us "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". God had to speak that Word to you, to reveal to you where that sore spot was, correct? I would think you could not tell me exactly WHEN God spoke that Word to you sometime in your history, but you could likely tell me when the Divine power did reveal its work (the moment you saw and were convicted).

It is my experience God does not declare a thing without first giving that Word the power to do exceedingly above all we can think, to do in/through the human soul what He has spoken - regardless of issue.

With conviction by the Word, the same Word also comes with the Divine power which both overcomes current/future desire to indulge in that hatred AND remove the blood-guilt of past indulgence. This is also true for any other sinful aspect of our being, no matter what particular sin(s), in any amount, one wishes to discuss. It is your willingness to be submitted to that Word - and remain submitted - which is carried day-to-day in your experience.

It is this last part you are referring to as the surrender and building the friendship, is it not? It is this point you are effective saying that while God can do the miraculous to get the ball rolling, keeping the ball rolling involves one's willingness to continue building that upon that initial appreciation and trust God more fully each day, no?

I would not presume to argue the point that in many cases, God takes the time to develop to allow His Word to fully develop a point - both in revealing what that issue is AND in appealing to the believer to believe in and depend upon His power to be washed from it. This last point is the dividing point: it is one thing to say one believes God has the power to work in and through a person; it is quite another to step up, make the personal identification with what God speaks, and actually depend upon that Divine power to do the very thing God says is to be done.

I will now back away a bit and address the issue as a whole - apart from your direct post, because there are posts following which touch on this.

The faith of Jesus is all about the restoring of the image of God back into mankind - not just within Jesus Himself. The same Jesus who declared His Father to be the indwelling power that did everything to both keep His humanity in check and do the works of the Father's will (John 14:9, 10), is the same Jesus who declares a two verses (verses 12, 13) later that people believing in Him will not only do the same works as He - but do greater works than did Christ. In the context, that necessarily includes both keeping one's humanity in check and doing the works of the Father's will.

The question then becomes: Are we going to dare to believe that He means us, identify with what God speaks to us there, and depend upon the power contained there to do this very thing? Or...are we going to back away from it, believing we are much to sinful for God to ever do that in us, because there is always that weakness and that hidden sinfulness we aren't aware of yet which spoils the whole thing?

Is God powerful enough to restore His image in us before His Coming? Or is sinful humanity - with all our tendencies and inclinations - simply just too much for God's power to handle long-term?

Blessings,

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Joeb

I think, and don't take this the wrong way as I see you as a far better theologian and Bible scholar than I am, is you're conflating the conversion experience and the long term "living for Christ" experience. These are two greatly different things. The long term "living for Christ" experience takes us deeply into our private selves, much more deeply than our conversion experience. Thus the comments in the SOP how sanctification is the "work" of a lifetime.

Having read through you post the rest of your post after these words, it's clear to me conflation isn't the issue here. We are speaking to two different points that, though related, are definitely not the same.

I am speaking to the action of the faith of Christ - the dynamic dependence upon the Divine power contained in God's Word/Promise spoken to the person, working upon/through that person and returning back to God the fruits of that work, succeeding in doing whatever it is God declares He wants demonstrated in/through that person.

You are definitively speaking to another process, which is just as important: that of the long-term "take up your cross, and follow Me" as Jesus declares to us.

One can lead to the other...but it isn't a guarantee (there are a fair number of characters illustrated in the Bible who failed on both sides of our discussion here)

In addition, Joe, I'm not speaking precisely of the conversion/repentance process per se, either.

The dynamic of Christ's defining of faith - whether the long-term day-to-day revealed in His life, or in the handling of acute issues in those appealing to Him - remains the same. What I posted earlier were examples of those people who, seeing God was indeed willing to exercise such great power on their behalf when there was no real humanly logical reason to do so, appreciated God's Word on their behalf, and saw the barriers of distrust broken down. They quickly became friends of God.

You spoke of what lay in your heart regarding your brother and father...now think of this in how I perceive the issue:

Romans 10:17 tells us "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". God had to speak that Word to you, to reveal to you where that sore spot was, correct? I would think you could not tell me exactly WHEN God spoke that Word to you sometime in your history, but you could likely tell me when the Divine power did reveal its work (the moment you saw and were convicted).

It is my experience God does not declare a thing without first giving that Word the power to do exceedingly above all we can think, to do in/through the human soul what He has spoken - regardless of issue.

With conviction by the Word, the same Word also comes with the Divine power which both overcomes current/future desire to indulge in that hatred AND remove the blood-guilt of past indulgence. This is also true for any other sinful aspect of our being, no matter what particular sin(s), in any amount, one wishes to discuss. It is your willingness to be submitted to that Word - and remain submitted - which is carried day-to-day in your experience.

It is this last part you are referring to as the surrender and building the friendship, is it not? It is this point you are effective saying that while God can do the miraculous to get the ball rolling, keeping the ball rolling involves one's willingness to continue building that upon that initial appreciation and trust God more fully each day, no?

I would not presume to argue the point that in many cases, God takes the time to develop to allow His Word to fully develop a point - both in revealing what that issue is AND in appealing to the believer to believe in and depend upon His power to be washed from it. This last point is the dividing point: it is one thing to say one believes God has the power to work in and through a person; it is quite another to step up, make the personal identification with what God speaks, and actually depend upon that Divine power to do the very thing God says is to be done.

I will now back away a bit and address the issue as a whole - apart from your direct post, because there are posts following which touch on this.

The faith of Jesus is all about the restoring of the image of God back into mankind - not just within Jesus Himself. The same Jesus who declared His Father to be the indwelling power that did everything to both keep His humanity in check and do the works of the Father's will (John 14:9, 10), is the same Jesus who declares a two verses (verses 12, 13) later that people believing in Him will not only do the same works as He - but do greater works than did Christ. In the context, that necessarily includes both keeping one's humanity in check and doing the works of the Father's will.

The question then becomes: Are we going to dare to believe that He means us, identify with what God speaks to us there, and depend upon the power contained there to do this very thing? Or...are we going to back away from it, believing we are much to sinful for God to ever do that in us, because there is always that weakness and that hidden sinfulness we aren't aware of yet which spoils the whole thing?

Is God powerful enough to restore His image in us before His Coming? Or is sinful humanity - with all our tendencies and inclinations - simply just too much for God's power to handle long-term?

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

Quote:

My point is that from seeing God work in our lives as we surrender to Him we become acquainted with His power. (This is getting to know God) We see how much power is available. Then, the more we surrender to Him the more power He makes available to us, and the more the Holy Spirit can use us. And it is the Holy Spirit that uses us, not the other way around. And, if we surrender completely, are in subjection to God as Jesus was we will be given the Holy Spirit without measure, just as Jesus was.

Quote:

Thus it is through getting to know God, and through the surrender of self that comes as part and parcel of this, that we can be given the Holy Spirit without measure so that He can use us in many miraculous ways. The power of God will be manifested in us very powerfully. Everything Christ did we will be able to do, including live just like He did. And that is the greatest miracle of all.

joeb,

IMO, the point you make here is the whole goal of my spiritual life. By the grace we receive through the faith of Christ, we can indeed "do all things through Christ who strengthens [us]". Isn't what you're talking about the results of what Joel was talking about in Joel 2:28-32; and what Peter talks about in Acts 2:16-21?

[joeb]

Quote:

My point is that from seeing God work in our lives as we surrender to Him we become acquainted with His power. (This is getting to know God) We see how much power is available. Then, the more we surrender to Him the more power He makes available to us, and the more the Holy Spirit can use us. And it is the Holy Spirit that uses us, not the other way around. And, if we surrender completely, are in subjection to God as Jesus was we will be given the Holy Spirit without measure, just as Jesus was.

Quote:

Thus it is through getting to know God, and through the surrender of self that comes as part and parcel of this, that we can be given the Holy Spirit without measure so that He can use us in many miraculous ways. The power of God will be manifested in us very powerfully. Everything Christ did we will be able to do, including live just like He did. And that is the greatest miracle of all.

joeb,

IMO, the point you make here is the whole goal of my spiritual life. By the grace we receive through the faith of Christ, we can indeed "do all things through Christ who strengthens [us]". Isn't what you're talking about the results of what Joel was talking about in Joel 2:28-32; and what Peter talks about in Acts 2:16-21?

Yes, in a way. They are a part of how God will use us, but this is not what my main idea has been all the way through this. To me, this is more about Jesus saying that anything that He did we will be able to do.

That "anything" is the part that really excites me. It includes living just like He did. Having His character. It means me so losing my "self" in Him and His power that I will live and act as He did/does. Yes, the rest comes too, but the Holy Spirit chooses who will receive what gift and demonstration of power.

The "living" part is what is available to us all. It's the part that I really long for. I can take or leave the rest of it. I don't care how many, if any, miracles I'm ever able to perform. Just give me the part of being like Jesus and I'll be more than satisfied.

[Gibs]

I don't know if this will help but Sister White answers one who asked, "what the faith of Jesus is?"

"You inquire what the faith of Jesus is. I have seen that the brethren and sisters have not understood the faith of Jesus in its true light. They have taught that it is healing the sick, etc. It is not healing the sick, merely, but it is all the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. "The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." I saw that it was the whole New Testament, which relates to Jesus.--Letter 4, 1857, p. 2. (To Brother Pierce, December 3, 1857.) {5MR 290.2}

Your commission has not run out. Your time is not yours. God does not wait in His work for you to study your convenience or wait your time. Angels of God were prepared to trouble hearts, and through the instruments of God's choosing lay the truth before unbelievers. But the instrument was not ready to do his part, to throw his whole energies into the work, and be a mouthpiece for God. The angels in their work wait not for anyone's convenience, but pass on to do their work, fulfill their mission, and move on other hearts.--Letter 2, 1859, p. 1. (To Brother Byington, June 21, 1859.)

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[JoeMo]

Quote:

That "anything" is the part that really excites me. It includes living just like He did. Having His character.

I agree; but I believe it is a lifelong process for most of us. My bone of contention is that overcoming sin is the RESULT of conversion, salvation, and grace; it is NOT the PREREQUISITE. Having the faith of Jesus is having total reliance on the Spirit of Christ; just like Christ had total reliance on the Father. It means expecting to do what God is blessing; not necessarily expecting Him to automatically bless what we are doing. It means taking responsibility for the power we have been given; which includes working on on "overcoming" skills.

That being said, we are not lost when we fall into occasional sin; we must "practice" overcoming just like we practice any other skills. For example, the longer I play the guitar, the better I get. Not bragging; but after almost 50 years of playing, I'm pretty good (not to mention a legend in my own mind); but I can always get better with more practice. I still make mistakes; but I don't despair and give up - I work on it.

So it is with overcoming. By practicing this new "talent" that the Holy Spirit (our Teacher) has given us through salvation and grace we increase our skills. But I believe that we can always get better with more practice. When we make a mistake, we acknowledge it, ask our Teacher for a little advice; and move on; but we don't beat ourselves up or fear that our Teacher will beat us up. Just like playing a musical instrument, when we master one skill, we move on to the next level - from glory unti glory so to speak. At the same time, we grow closer and closer to our Teacher until one day, we are just like Him.

[joeb]

Quote:

That "anything" is the part that really excites me. It includes living just like He did. Having His character.

I agree; but I believe it is a lifelong process for most of us. My bone of contention is that overcoming sin is the RESULT of conversion, salvation, and grace; it is NOT the PREREQUISITE. Having the faith of Jesus is having total reliance on the Spirit of Christ; just like Christ had total reliance on the Father. It means expecting to do what God is blessing; not necessarily expecting Him to automatically bless what we are doing. It means taking responsibility for the power we have been given; which includes working on on "overcoming" skills.

I'll just answer what I quoted for now as you've brought up huge fields of thought. Way too much to answer in one post, and this alone will give us plenty to talk about for days.

That faith, that total reliance that Christ had on His Father, will bring forth the same fruits in our lives as it did in Christ's, or it isn't the same faith, it isn't the same total reliance. It's something less, much less. It's no longer the faith of Jesus.

Where, oh where, do you get the idea that I'm saying obedience is a prerequisite to overcoming sin, to conversion, to anything? I've never said anything even remotely close to that, yet you keep on talking as if I have. You're making objections to things I've never said. It's almost as if you're not reading what I'm saying, or if you are you're so sure I'm saying something else that you're not really "listening" when you read.

We don't work on "overcoming skills" to be sanctified!! Never!!! We work on staying close to Christ, on keeping focused on Him. We work on getting to know God better every day, and that includes understanding His power to change our hearts, minds, and attitudes. The more we see changes in our lives the more we trust Him. The more we see of His power exhibited in our lives, the more we have the faith to ask for along those lines. We learn how to build our relationship with God by Biblical principles. We study to receive God into our soul, to receive His power for living. We open our hearts to God in prayer. We daily tell Him our joys, sorrows, cares, our ups and downs, etc.... We become friends with God, pure and simple. That is our "work" of a lifetime in our sanctification.

Either sanctification is by faith, just like justification is by faith, or Righteousness by Faith is a complete misnomer. It's not Righteousness by Farks, or Righteousness by Woith. Righteousness by Faith is by being justified and sanctified faith, not by a combination of faith and works.

Ellen White says: "When we get to know God, as it is our privilege to know Him, our lives will be one of continual obedience." Stop for a while and really think about that statement. It's extremely powerful once you really grasp its meaning. It's also very liberating. I don't have to struggle with my behavior to be sanctified. I have to get to know God. Can you think of anything more rewarding, anything more joyful than that? It is God who works in me both to will and to do His good pleasure.

You need to clear your mind of everything you have ever known about sanctification to understand this. It's completely Biblical, but it's miles away from what we've always been taught sanctification is and how it is supposed to work.

Read your Bible, Steps to Christ, and The Desire of Ages. You will find this being taught all through all three books.

[Gerr]

That faith, that total reliance that Christ had on His Father, will bring forth the same fruits in our lives as it did in Christ's, or it isn't the same faith, it isn't the same total reliance. It's something less, much less. It's no longer the faith of Jesus.

Absolutely!!!

[Gerr]

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Where, oh where, do you get the idea that I'm saying obedience is a prerequisite to overcoming sin, to conversion, to anything? I've never said anything even remotely close to that

I don't think you said that Joe; I agree with your assertions; I was just trying to package what you said in different words. Guess I didn't do a very good job.

Quote:

We don't work on "overcoming skills" to be sanctified!! Never!!

Here I do disagree somewhat. We don't work on our overcoming skills in order to be saved; we work on them because we are saved. In my own experience, I have been avery jaded individual, with some really bad habits that I put a lot of time into developing. Since I have committed my life to Christ, I am finding that it takes a lot of time to undo (overcome) all my bad habits. It takes effort, too. What will power I don't provide, God provides when I ask Him. My problem is, I don't always ask Him to help me. That is where the faith of Jesus comes in. He always asked for and relied on His Father to help Him. When I say we "work" on our overcoming skills, it's just part of the process of getting closer to Christ.

Quote:

We become friends with God, pure and simple. That is our "work" of a lifetime in our sanctification.

Isn't it the same with our human relationships? Being lifetime friends is the work of a lifetime.