So new Pope...

[Tom Wetmore]

According to what Jonah himself wrote, here is the message that God told Jonah to deliver, "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me." - Jonah 1:2

And here is the message Jonah said he delivered, " "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown."

That does not sound conditional. Rather specific and absolute. It's all going to be all over in 40 days. No call to repentance. They were condemned to die in 40 days. No options given. That was final. Like Sodom before them, they were too evil to save. Destroy them.

But they repented. "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."

(Some translations say that God "repented of the evil He said He would do to them".)

God changed his mind. He showed mercy to a whole city that repented and turned from their wickedness.

And that made Jonah angry. He said to God, "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." That was why Jonah didn't want to warn Nineveh. He wanted to see God destroy them rather than save them.

Imagine being angry at God because he is merciful? Imagine preferring that God destroy rather than save.

Just like it seems that some good protestants (Adventists) will be angry with God if he does not punish the Catholic Church according to the message they feel called by God to preach against the Catholics, even if they repent and turn from their wicked ways. We sometimes talk as if we look forward to seeing God destroy people. That we really don't want Him to save them.

[Gordon1]

Don't forget restitution.

[Textus Receptus]

According to what Jonah himself wrote, here is the message that God told Jonah to deliver, "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me." - Jonah 1:2

And here is the message Jonah said he delivered, " "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown."

That does not sound conditional. Rather specific and absolute. It's all going to be all over in 40 days. No call to repentance. They were condemned to die in 40 days. No options given. That was final. Like Sodom before them, they were too evil to save. Destroy them.

But they repented. "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."

(Some translations say that God "repented of the evil He said He would do to them".)

God changed his mind. He showed mercy to a whole city that repented and turned from their wickedness.

And that made Jonah angry. He said to God, "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." That was why Jonah didn't want to warn Nineveh. He wanted to see God destroy them rather than save them.

Imagine being angry at God because he is merciful? Imagine preferring that God destroy rather than save.

Just like it seems that some good protestants (Adventists) will be angry with God if he does not punish the Catholic Church according to the message they feel called by God to preach against the Catholics, even if they repent and turn from their wicked ways. We sometimes talk as if we look forward to seeing God destroy people. That we really don't want Him to save them.

The Bible gives us these instructions when testing the claims of a prophet: “When a prophet speaketh in the name of Yahweh, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Yahweh hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” (Deu 18:22) This seems clear enough. And there is further instruction, because not every prophet that seems to give an accurate prediction is necessarily sent by Heaven either.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them,’ thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for Yahweh your Almighty proveth you, to know whether ye love Yahweh your Almighty with all your heart and with all your soul.” (Deu 13:1-3)

This is not, however, a comprehensive “test.” Jonah had his activities recorded in the Scriptures, and that he was a genuine messenger for Yahweh is declared by the separate witness of the Book of 2 Kings: “[Jeroboam, son of Joash] restored the coast of Israel from the entering of Hamath unto the sea of the plain, according to the word of Yahweh, Elohim of Israel, which He spake by the hand of his servant Jonah, the son of Amittai, the prophet, which was of Gathhepher.” (2 Kings 14:25)

But now this Jonah gave a prediction that did not come to pass in the way he predicted, and the reason for this is that last factor, that being conditional prophecy. The record stands as such: “So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of Yahweh. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days’ journey. And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, ‘Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.’” (Jonah 3:3, 4)

We note that no explicit conditions were given, yet the following is said next: “So the people of Nineveh believed Elohim, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. And Elohim saw their works, that they TURNED from their evil way; and Elohim repented of the evil that He had said that He would do unto them; and He did it not.” (verses 5, 10)

Clearly, the reason why Yahweh did not do what He had declared was because the people repented. They accepted the guilt of their current condition, and the put away their idols and wickedness. History records a time when the people of Nineveh became monotheistic practically overnight, and the secular world does not have any explanation as to why this should be… yet the record of it is preserved for us in Sacred Writ.

This is not the only example of conditional prophecy in the Bible. Ezekiel, another confirmed prophet of Yahweh says this of Israel: “Thus saith Adonai Yahweh, ‘In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. […] Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, […] In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army; and thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

“‘Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith Adonai Yahweh. And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am Yahweh.’” (Ezek 36:33, 38:2, 14 – 16; 39:4 – 6)

Clearly, there was never a time when Israel was cleansed from all its iniquities, nor a time when Israel dwelled safely after this prophecy was given. Some have said, therefore, that this will happen some time in the future, and to an extent they are correct. However, it does not happen for the actual, earthly Israel, but for the city of New Jerusalem, the home of all the Redeemed, and it happens in a setting quite different than that which was foreseen by Ezekiel.

We read, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, ‘Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.’ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” (Revelation 19:17, 20:7 – 9)

This is just a short excerpt, but the parallels are numerous and precise. The prophecy in Ezekiel is actually fulfilled at the very time of Heaven’s triumph, and even the same names are used for the enemies of the holy people: Gog and Magog. There are several other easily cited examples as well, but these two suffice to demonstrate the overall idea.

The principle, therefore, is clearly this: when the course of a people change, the nature of the prophecies associated with that people must of necessity change as well. It does not make the prophet a false one; rather it confirms that the human agent is not speaking from his (or her) own wisdom, because the manner of the prediction’s fulfillment may take place in a way completely unimaginable from the current perspective.

http://csda-adventistchurch.to/Binary/essays/emproph.html

[hch]

pope Francis yesterday:

His messages of compassion for the weakest members of society tied closely to his messages about the natural world, as he said that respect for "each of God's creatures" means treating both people and the environment in the same compassionate manner. People who ignored "God's plan inscribed in nature," he said, leads to destruction and hardened hearts."

After reflection - this statement looks like it could lead to the U.N. treaty that would grant the same rights found in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to Mother Nature. That treaty, introduced by Bolivia in 2011 was debated in April of that year, I believe.

It is only a matter of time until Francis will take up the Global Warming cause. It sure looks that way.

rejoice always,

`G

[BobRyan]

I wouldn't even entertain the idea that eschatology would change. We have a sure word of prophesy. Not to mention, even if Jesuit Francis did challenge the Catholic church, I think the Jesuits would have something to say about that. Dare I say, an untimely removal. That said, even if he ostensibly appeared to reform, it would be for the benefit of Rome. Perhaps to provide the illusion that the Roman church as changed, to only gain the symphathies of the protestants?

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

It is only a matter of time until Francis will take up the Global Warming cause. It sure looks that way.

Can one buy carbon credits for stake-burning?

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Textus Receptus

I wouldn't even entertain the idea that eschatology would change. We have a sure word of prophesy. Not to mention, even if Jesuit Francis did challenge the Catholic church, I think the Jesuits would have something to say about that. Dare I say, an untimely removal. That said, even if he ostensibly appeared to reform, it would be for the benefit of Rome. Perhaps to provide the illusion that the Roman church as changed, to only gain the symphathies of the protestants?

How about this possibility -

Originally Posted By: pierrepaul

Jonah prophesied the destruction of Nineveh which didn't come to pass as the people repented. The prophecies against Rome similarly need not come to pass.

Oh...I wouldn't count on that last bit about Jonah. Using the day for a year rule, Jonah's prophecy was spot on.

Curious thing about the Jonah message...the Hebrew word there for overthrown, "haphek", can be used two different ways.

When used in the context of God's wrath against the unrepentant, it can rightfully be translated "destroyed" or "annihilated" - just as Sodom and Gomorrah were "overthrown" = annihilated. However, it does have a second meaning. It can also mean the turning of the heart - meaning to have a change in attitude in a powerful way (just as Pharaoh's heart was "turned" during the plagues, and the people of Israel's hearts were "turned" after Sinai).

The message God declared to Nineveh through Jonah meant one of two results would come to pass after 40 days - the people of Nineveh would either have a powerful change of heart, or they would be destroyed as a people.

The whole city repented before God - and God honored that penitence by sparing Nineveh. The next generation, though, did not continue the work, instead becoming more evil than their parent's generation - and Nineveh was indeed destroyed by Babylon's armies 40 years after Jonah delivered God's message.

Either way one cuts it...Jonah met the test of a prophet...in spite of himself.

Blessings,

[Bravus]

Yes 'Nineveh was a conditional prophecy' - it didn't say so on the tin. Either all prophecies are conditional or none are, since there is nothing that distinguishes them from each other *before* they are either fulfilled or fail to be fulfilled.

[phkrause]

Bob thanks for the info

[BobRyan]

Yes 'Nineveh was a conditional prophecy' - it didn't say so on the tin. Either all prophecies are conditional or none are,

Jesus said he would come again. Turns out He will.

Jesus said the wicked would burn in the lake of fire - in Rev 20. turns out - they will.

Jesus said that at the end of time - it would be like Sodom and Gomorrah around here -- turns out... it is.

The conditional prophecy principle of Jeremiah 18:7-11 applies - but even in the case of Nineveh when they turned and repented - and avoided immediate destruction - 40 years later they were back to their old ways and then wiped out.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Yes 'Nineveh was a conditional prophecy' - it didn't say so on the tin. Either all prophecies are conditional or none are, since there is nothing that distinguishes them from each other *before* they are either fulfilled or fail to be fulfilled.

Was the promise in Genesis 3: 15 conditional?

How about the prophecy about Christ's second coming-- conditional or unconditonl?

The conditional prophecies usually contain "if" in them. This is the general rule, but as we've seen, there are exceptions.

See the "blessings" and the "cursings" of Deut. 28.

See also Ezekiel 18: 21ff.

Based on what the Bible reveals about God's character, it's reasonable to conclude that if the people of Noah's day had repented and turned to God, He wouldn't have destroyed them with the Flood. As Bob already pointed out, the same principle applies to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

One very important conditional prophecy is found in Daniel 9: 24-27. Certain aspects of that prophecy were conditioned on the response of Israel.

If Israel had met the conditions God laid down-- that is, if Israel had repented and accepted their Messiah-- many things would have been far different. But one thing that was unconditional was the coming of the Messiah. He was to come no matter what.

[John317]

Imagine being angry at God because he is merciful? Imagine preferring that God destroy rather than save.

Just like it seems that some good protestants (Adventists) will be angry with God if he does not punish the Catholic Church according to the message they feel called by God to preach against the Catholics, even if they repent and turn from their wicked ways. We sometimes talk as if we look forward to seeing God destroy people. That we really don't want Him to save them.

I would be overjoyed if the Catholic Church were to repent and come out of spiritual Babylon.

But what is the message "Babylon is fallen"? What does it mean to proclaim the second angel's message?

Doesn't it mean that the churches-- NOT the individuals in the fallen churces-- that constitute Babylon are beyond any hope of turning back to God?

In order for the Catholic Church to come out of Babylon, it would need to abandon the papacy, its teaching regarding the immortality of the soul, Mariology, prayers to the saints, Sunday worship, confession to the priest, the Mass, and its view that tradition is more authoritative than the Scriptures.

That's a very tall order, but if it happened, I would be thrilled. I have many family members in the Catholic Church.

Could it happen? Theoretically, yes.

Will it happen? God alone knows, but we should pray that it does.

At the same time, let's keep proclaiming the Three Angels' Messages and working toward calling people out of Babylon.

Isn't that what we'll do if we really love them and want them to be ready for Christ' return?

[John317]

x10

[John317]

I'd say its always safe to pray for anyone, no matter who they are.

We definitely ought to be praying for the pope-- that God will open his eyes.

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

But as Ellen White notes in the case of Noah - if the people had repented - God would not have destroyed the world by a flood.

This is true, but the book of Revelation is different than any other book. While it is correct that the people in Noah's day could have been saved if they repented, humanity had chosen not to before their untimely death. Unfortnately, after the doors of the Ark had closed, they had to die as a consequence of their decision.

We also have a time when the Ark doors will close--the end of probation. The book of Revelation speaks of an unrepentant people who will unfortnately have to live through a tribulation; something that the people of Noah's time did not have to endure. Revelation and the Spirit of Prophesy not only warns us about what is to come, but also that salvation will not longer be offered after the close of probation; I guess our equivalent of the Ark doors closing.

So yes, it is true that the people of Noah's time could have been saved, but only up to the time that the Ark doors had closed. However, the impending tribulation found in Revelation demarcates the people of Noah's time with those written in Revelation. Some will actually have to endure sin experientially by living through the trib, something that the people of Noah's time did not have to endure.

[hch]

I would be overjoyed if the Catholic Church were to repent and come out of spiritual Babylon.

But what is the message "Babylon is fallen"? What does it mean to proclaim the second angel's message?

Doesn't it mean that the churches-- NOT the individuals in the fallen churces-- that constitute Babylon are beyond any hope of turning back to God?

In order for the Catholic Church to come out of Babylon, it would need to abandon the papacy, its teaching regarding the immortality of the soul, Mariology, prayers to the saints, Sunday worship, confession to the priest, the Mass, and its view that tradition is more authoritative than the Scriptures.

That's a very tall order, but if it happened, I would be thrilled. I have many family members in the Catholic Church.

Could it happen? Theoretically, yes.

Will it happen? God alone knows, but we should pray that it does.

At the same time, let's keep proclaiming the Three Angels' Messages and working toward calling people out of Babylon.

Isn't that what we'll do if we really love them and want them to be ready for Christ' return?

Though God calls His people to come out of Babylon and the sins of her priests are front page news, the churches are flowing into Babylon. They are revolting against God's call to flee it.

The Lutherans have repented of Martin Luther's "hasty" condemnation of Rome. The Anglicans have accepted Rome's teaching about Mary. And the list goes on...

And some SDA's think that if they drag their feet they can delay Christ's Coming. But the promise from Adam to our day is that He will come. And at the appointed hour (while President Obama is President, & retire Benedict is the pope that was and Francis ! is the one that is) Satan personating John-Paul II will say in effect: 'Didn't I tell you that Sunday was God's sabbath in Dies Domini when I was with you & touch me feel me - this is my spiritual body. Check it out. It is still in the Vatican Crypt...'

But with the time for all these things to happen being right upon us, so few know the time of their visitation.

As the wait and see method was the wrong way to determine the truthfulness of prophecy in Noah's Day, it is the wrong method today on the eve of Christ's Advent. But alas it will separate those that go by sight from those that go by faith when Jesus comes.

[Gail]

Quote:

Doesn't it mean that the churches-- NOT the individuals in the fallen churces-- that constitute Babylon are beyond any hope of turning back to God?

Yep- the mother of harlots and the daughters. That is quite a thought!

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

Though God calls His people to come out of Babylon and the sins of her priests are front page news, the churches are flowing into Babylon. They are revolting against God's call to flee it.

The Lutherans have repented of Martin Luther's "hasty" condemnation of Rome. The Anglicans have accepted Rome's teaching about Mary. And the list goes on...

And some SDA's think that if they drag their feet they can delay Christ's Coming. But the promise from Adam to our day is that He will come. And at the appointed hour (while President Obama is President, & retire Benedict is the pope that was and Francis ! is the one that is) Satan personating John-Paul II will say in effect: 'Didn't I tell you that Sunday was God's sabbath in Dies Domini when I was with you & touch me feel me - this is my spiritual body. Check it out. It is still in the Vatican Crypt...'

But with the time for all these things to happen being right upon us, so few know the time of their visitation.

As the wait and see method was the wrong way to determine the truthfulness of prophecy in Noah's Day, it is the wrong method today on the eve of Christ's Advent. But alas it will separate those that go by sight from those that go by faith when Jesus comes.

What!?!

Obama the Beast that is, Benedict, the Beast that was, and Francis the Beast that is? Satan impersonating John Paul II?

First of all, the bible tells us that the 2 beast, are political systems, and not a station of men. Infact, having more than one pope simultaneously is not unique to todays time. There was a time when there were 3 popes!

As for Satan impersonating JPII, I would seriously give Satan a bit more credit. He is far far far far more intelligent than you or I. Why would he impersonate a Catholic figure when the world's major religions are awaiting a Messiah? One should only make decision based upon sound biblical and historial facts.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

[phkrause]

What!?!

Obama the Beast that is, Benedict, the Beast that was, and Francis the Beast that is? Satan impersonating John Paul II?

First of all, the bible tells us that the 2 beast, are political systems, and not a station of men. Infact, having more than one pope simultaneously is not unique to todays time. There was a time when there were 3 popes!

As for Satan impersonating JPII, I would seriously give Satan a bit more credit. He is far far far far more intelligent than you or I. Why would he impersonate a Catholic figure when the world's major religions are awaiting a Messiah? One should only make decision based upon sound biblical and historial facts.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

I totally agree TR.

[BobRyan]

Excellent point. The Bible tells us quite a lot about how it all ends.

And most sobering is the fact that not only does the wicked world make horrible choices in the end - but the church of Laodicea in Rev 3 seems to be joining the "many" of Matt 7 that do not make it to heaven.

A truly sobering wakeup call for Christians today.

in Christ,

Bob

[hch]

TR,

I am sorry that you misstated my position when you wrote "Obama the Beast that is." (You actually got the quote right that I wrote: while President Obama is President, & retire Benedict is the pope that was and Francis ! is the one that is") but in your reply below it, you changed the context of my words entirely. Looks like you replied to what you thought I said. And after misinterpreting my statement, your response has no more relevance to my actual statement than today's Sunshine in Florida relates to the Snow storm in Boston.

Obama is the 4th beast in the final fulfillment of Daniel 7. And he is the image beast in Revelation 13. To understand the image-beast, you must study the beast itself (the papacy). When you understand the papacy, then it is possible to understand how an image is like a reflection in a mirror. Thus to look at the beast or its image is like looking at the beast.

What!?!

Obama the Beast that is, Benedict, the Beast that was, and Francis the Beast that is? Satan impersonating John Paul II?

First of all, the bible tells us that the 2 beast, are political systems, and not a station of men. Infact, having more than one pope simultaneously is not unique to todays time. There was a time when there were 3 popes!

As for Satan impersonating JPII, I would seriously give Satan a bit more credit. He is far far far far more intelligent than you or I. Why would he impersonate a Catholic figure when the world's major religions are awaiting a Messiah? One should only make decision based upon sound biblical and historial facts.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

[Textus Receptus]

TR,

I am sorry that you misstated my position when you wrote "Obama the Beast that is." (You actually got the quote right that I wrote: while President Obama is President, & retire Benedict is the pope that was and Francis ! is the one that is") but in your reply below it, you changed the context of my words entirely. Looks like you replied to what you thought I said. And after misinterpreting my statement, your response has no more relevance to my actual statement than today's Sunshine in Florida relates to the Snow storm in Boston.

Obama is the 4th beast in the final fulfillment of Daniel 7. And he is the image beast in Revelation 13. To understand the image-beast, you must study the beast itself (the papacy). When you understand the papacy, then it is possible to understand how an image is like a reflection in a mirror. Thus to look at the beast or its image is like looking at the beast.

Originally Posted By: Textus Receptus

What!?!

Obama the Beast that is, Benedict, the Beast that was, and Francis the Beast that is? Satan impersonating John Paul II?

First of all, the bible tells us that the 2 beast, are political systems, and not a station of men. Infact, having more than one pope simultaneously is not unique to todays time. There was a time when there were 3 popes!

As for Satan impersonating JPII, I would seriously give Satan a bit more credit. He is far far far far more intelligent than you or I. Why would he impersonate a Catholic figure when the world's major religions are awaiting a Messiah? One should only make decision based upon sound biblical and historial facts.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

Unfortunately the lack of knowledge quote that you cite is too true for Laodicea.

The Bible tells us the endtime meaning of the beasts in Daniel 7 that too many refuse to believe. "These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth (Daniel 7:17). And the earth is identified in Revelation 13. So when Daniel 7 and revelation 13 explain themselves in the endtime, the 4-kings are American Presidents lest tradition obscures what God has sealed until the endtime.

Regarding multiple popes: This is the first time in centuries that this has happened. And it is the only time in the last 83-years 4-months since the papacy had it deadly wound healed in 1929.

Have you never read this?

Originally Posted By: Spirit of Prophecy

As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath. Satan will not only appear as a human being, but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent. What a spectacle will the world be for heavenly intelligences! What a spectacle for God, the Creator of the world, to behold! The form Satan assumed in Eden when leading our first parents to transgress, was of a character to bewilder and confuse the mind. He will work in as subtle a manner as we near the end of earth's history. All his deceiving power will be brought to bear upon human subjects, to complete the work of deluding the human family. So deceptive will be his working, that men will do as they did in the days of Christ; and when asked, Whom shall I release unto you, Christ or Barabbas? the almost universal cry will be, Barabbas, Barabbas! And when the question is asked, "What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?" the cry again will be, "Crucify him!" Christ will be represented in the person of those who accept the truth, and who identify their interest with that of their Lord. The world will be enraged at them in the same way that they were enraged at Christ, and the disciples of Christ will know that they are to be treated no better than was their Lord. But Christ will surely identify his interest with that of those who accept him as their personal Saviour. Every insult, every reproach, every false accusation made against them by those who have turned their ears away from the truth and are turned unto fables, will be charged upon the guilty ones as done to Christ in the person of his saints. {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6}

Sorry about the misinterpretation, nonetheless, your analysis is ultimately incorrect. Obama is not a beast nor are any of the popes are beast as mentioned in scripture. They are political systems and not men as stated unambiguously in scripture. I would caution you to stick to what the prophets have defined.

As for your personal interpretation with regards to kings, kings are kingdoms, not figure heads. Kings come and go, but kingdoms are a tad more tenacious. Taken as a whole, Daniel was speaking of the last four kingdoms that would arise prior to the coming of Christ. Lion=Babylon, Bear = medo-persia, Leopard = Greece, and the last Rome.

These four beasts are said to arise from the sea, which sea is thoroughly understood as a highly populated areas - the old world if you will. What puzzles me more is how you would even know the that the little horn is the papacy given the fact that you totally disregard that the little horn rose AMONG them, meaning the old world, not the U.S. where you are placing the kings. I can see how you would misinterpret Daniel 17:7 as it does say that they shall arise from the earth, however, for your interpretation to be true, you must violate the chasm which exist. However, when you take this verse in its total context, it means from the world just the world not the earth in a prophetic sense. You can not apply the definition of “earth” in the context of how it is used for the 2nd beast of Revelation without violating the chasms.

[hch]

I will try to answer you briefly.

Sorry about the misinterpretation, nonetheless, your analysis is ultimately incorrect.

[Textus Receptus]

HCH, I have included a link that examines the issue we have been discussing. Take a look, it was very informative. It was a paper sumbitted to the Adventist Biblical Research Organization. I was personally blown way by their analysis.

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/The%20Beast%20of%20Revelation%2017.pdf

[hch]

HCH, I have included a link that examines the issue we have been discussing. Take a look, it was very informative. It was a paper sumbitted to the Adventist Biblical Research Organization. I was personally blown way by their analysis.

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/The%20Beast%20of%20Revelation%2017.pdf

Thank you this is interisting