Should Adventist Pastors Receive a Salary?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Well, in most churches people keep coming back, week after week.

Amazing, isn't it? For many of them it's a social thing. I've seen regular attenders not paying any attention to the sermon, but they'll be back next week.

During the singing of some of these modern drone songs (sounds like a hive of bees just droning on and on, no tune, no melody, the same pitch endlessly) I've often watched the people to see how many are singing. It's mostly below 10%.

[Naomi]

Yes Stan

[Naomi]

Interesting observation; I am impressed as I have not the ability to know what a person is thinking or concentrating on during the sermon or song servce.

[lazarus]

During the singing of some of these modern drone songs (sounds like a hive of bees just droning on and on, no tune, no melody, the same pitch endlessly) I've often watched the people to see how many are singing. It's mostly below 10%.

Has it occurred to you that they are doing what you are doing. Just a thought.

[Liz]

Back to the comments about paying tithe to other organizations and not necessarily to the church.

We are also told to be good stewards of the money that God entrusts to us. So then how do we justify giving our tithe to an organization that we "know" is being reckless?

It seems like a catch-22 to me. Pay tithe, but be good stewards. And we are going to be accountable for our choices.

Seriously, how do we reconcile that?

[Textus Receptus]

The Father provided everything Jesus needed. Needed, being the key word. He was near death from lack of food after 40 days in the wilderness and would have perished had not angels provided sustenance immediately. He knew hunger, fatigue, cold.

Likewise, Paul wrote a letter asking for a coat in prison because he to was cold. They both, at times, slept on the side of the road, and winters could be harsh.

Jesus had no home, being at the mercy of others. Ellen and James White injured their health early on in the ministry from lack of food and from others not seeing and answering their needs.

I know, it's different today and Pastors need an income. But one day it will return to the same conditions the Waldenses faced. Hunger, death, cold. When that day comes the Father will supply everything we need, to keep from dieing. Don't expect to be treated or receive anything more than that.

Great Point! Mana restores, but Jesus the true mana provides life eternal.

[ClubV12]

Liz, there is no doubt this a very troubling point for many. Whether it is true or not or how it misunderstood or not, the fact remains, what leadership does with the money is problematic.

You ask,

"Seriously, how do we reconcile that?"

Here's I reconcile it. MY tithes and offerings are in the same heavenly bank account as the widow and her two mites were. Those two mites were far more powerful than a BIG offering used to buy fund a vacation for some Priests second nephew. The widows offering was especially gaurded by the heavenly host and blessed by Jesus and the Father. So it is with MY tithe, given with a heart of love and thankfulness to God. I know MY tithe is especially blessed and used to promote His work. I offer it to God, what becomes of it after that, another steward will have to answer to Him for it's use or misuse.

But confidence does not waiver, I KNOW my tithe is right there with the widows and is an investment for eternity.

[Naomi]

[Arwen]

Tithe pays the Pastors salary, just as it did for the Levites, who were supported by the members of the congregation.

That is true however the Levites and priests only served at the tabernacle or temple for up to 5 weeks a year. They only ate from the storehouse when they were on duty at the storehouse. The rest of the year they lived in their 48 cities with their families and worked in their regular jobs.

I Googled and found this article which looks at this:

Pastoral Pay and the Levitical Priesthood

Some pastors point to the Levitical Priesthood as proof that spiritual leaders should have their needs met by the people they serve. Passages such as Numbers 18 and Deuteronomy 18 are often referenced in support of this idea.

While it is true that Priests serving in the Tabernacle, and later the Temple, could eat of the grain and meat that was brought as sacrifices, it must be noted that this was only for the Priests who were serving at the time the sacrifice was made.

How often were Priests serving in such capacity?

According to 1 Chronicles 23–24, the Priests were divided up into 24 divisions, with each division serving about two weeks out of each year. For the rest of the year, they had to provide for their own needs and that of their families.

But how did they do this?

While the Levites were not given an inheritance of land in the same way the other Tribes of Israel were, they still were given portions of land around various cities scattered throughout Israel.

Numbers 35 indicates that they were given 48 cities throughout Israel, and the land around each city extending out from the city walls for 2000 cubits, which is about two-thirds of a mile (cf. also Joshua 20–21). They were to use this land for their herds and crops.

What did they do in those cities?

If the Levitical priests were only serving in the Tabernacle (or Temple) two weeks out of the year, and the rest of the year, dwelled in one of the 48 cities scattered around Israel, what did they do in those cities?

The same thing everybody else does in cities. They lived, worked, and raised their families.

One thing they were not doing was living off the tithes of other people.

After all, the tithes were only brought to Jerusalem during the times of sacrifices and feasts.

So the Levites worked in their cities and the surrounding fields. Some were farmers, while others were herdsman. A few were potters, or weavers. Every trade that could be found in any other city would also be found in a Levitical city.

These were not cities filled with a bunch of Bible teachers who sat around reading the Bible and waiting for people to bring them food and meat.

No, they worked and earned their living like any other person in the country, except when they had to leave their job for two weeks out of every year to serve in Jerusalem. At those times, they ate from the sacrifices and offerings that people brought.

What happened in the days of Jesus?

In the days of Jesus, things had changed a bit, and many of the priests permanently lived and worked in the Temple. Furthermore, they had acquired numerous fields around Jerusalem upon which to grow their Temple wheat and barley. Also, through money-changing and the sale of sacrificial animals which were without blemish (see John 2:12-22), many of the Temple Priests had become quite wealthy.

On numerous occasions, Jesus criticizes them for this (cf. Matt 23:23-24; Luke 20:46-47).

They were leveraging the Mosaic Law to make themselves rich, while neglecting the poor and needy in their midst.

When people brought their money, and sacrificed from it to obey the instructions of the religious leaders, all that the leaders offered in return were empty prayers and promises of blessing.

All of this was exactly the opposite of what God intended, but seems to be hauntingly familiar to much of what goes on in many churches today. How many pastors have been enriched and glorious buildings constructed on the backs of the poor and needy in our communities?

What does all this mean?

All of this indicates that it is nearly impossible to obtain a defense for pastoral salaries from the practices of the Levitical Priesthood.

The nail in the coffin to this idea, however, is in the Priesthood instituted by Jesus through His death and resurrection.

According to 1 Peter 2:5-9, all believers are now priests.

We are a kingdom of priests, which Jesus as the only High Priest (cf. Hebrews 8).

There is no priestly class which can depend on the non-priestly class to provide for their daily needs.

So the church cannot look to the Levitical Priesthood for support of the practice of pastoral salaries.

Source: http://www.tillhecomes.org/pastoral-pay-levitical-priesthood/

[phkrause]

Has it occurred to you that they are doing what you are doing. Just a thought.

Interesting thought Lazarus. So many just know how to complain, but give no positive solutions.

[Windsor]

Where would the Christian church be today without one of the most educated men of his time, the apostle Paul?

[Naomi]

[ClubV12]

As far as receiving a salary goes, Paul doesn't help this case, I move to suppress the witness' testimony!

What I really admire about Paul was that he was a self supporting worker. He was loath to accept money, or anything for that matter, from the Churches. He wanted to silence any voice that could say he was in it for the money. He worked hard and sacraficed his own well being to support himself AND others!

I really admire some Pastors I seeing doing that today, God bless them. Some really struggling to make ends meet, to find gas money to get to the next place God has called them to. Or just put food on the table.

I also really admire those working men and women who have chosen to work with the organized Church, the regular lines of work. Not all are called to support themselves and thats OK. It's all part of the fabric of the work the Church.

Our Ministers have spent years in school. In many cases they could command a good wage in the private sector. I'm glad they are there Sabbath in and Sabbath out, to feed the sheep. I gladly support them with my tithe and offerings.

[joeb]

Be reasonable - he's only got ten fingers. Even if he took off his shoes and socks he wouldn't have been able to get to thirty. No wonder he's not a big fan of accountants and treasurers and people good with numbers.

There's a difference between a joke and an insult. I didn't mean to insult.

[joeb]

Where would the Christian church be today without one of the most educated men of his time, the apostle Paul?

But remember that Paul tried using his education in debate and failed sadly in gaining converts. After that he said he was determined to preach Christ, Him crucified, and only Christ.

The problem with some educated people is they think their education is the be all and end all, and forget that Christ can teach them more in a moment than they can learn on their own without Him in a lifetime.

I'll take the knowledge and wisdom that comes from Christ over an education any day, and especially the education that is coming from our institutions of "higher learning" today. The only true "higher learning" is that learning which comes from God.

[Kevin H]

There are definitely some good questions about how the tithe money is used. For me there is a definite focus on where I am active and providing local work, feeding the poor in my neighborhood.

A problem we have is Leviticus and Deuteronomy are contradictory when it comes to the tithe. In Leviticus it is to ONLY go to the General Conference for the Aaronite priesthood. In Deuteronomy it is to support both the organized church but also the other Levites and supporting and cooperating ministries where you believe truth is coming from. Of course when arguing about the Biblical use of the Tithe, the General Conference finds the message of Leviticus and other verses that reflect the view of Leviticus, and since they prove from the Bible they are right can't see how people can do otherwise. Meanwhile the independent ministries tend to focus more on the texts that are Deuteronomic in nature and thus sees that the Bible is clear that they are right, since they both want to be fundamentalists and think they found the perfect Biblical answer.

Now with the widow's mite. Jesus could have said to her "Don't give it to this corrupt organization come over here and you can give it to Judas my treasurer"

[jamesonofthunder]

"It is a terrible injustice for an auditing committee to disappoint a worthy minister who is in need of every cent that he has been led to expect. The Lord declares, “I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt-offering.” [isaiah 61:8.] He would have His people reveal a liberal spirit in all their dealings with their fellows. The principle underlying His command to ancient Israel, “Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn,” [1 Corinthians 9:9; See Deuteronomy 25:4.] is a principle that should never be set aside by any who have to do with the remuneration of those who have given themselves to advance God’s cause in the world, and who spend their strength in lifting the minds of men from the contemplation of earthly things to the heavenly. God loves these workers, and He would have men respect their rights. {GW 450.2}

The eight-hour system finds no place in the program of the minister of God. He must hold himself in readiness for service at any hour. He must keep up his life and energy; for if he is dull and languid, he cannot exert a saving influence. If he occupies a position of responsibility, he must be prepared to attend board and council meetings, spending hours in brain- and nerve-taxing labor, planning for the advancement of the cause. Work of this kind is a heavy tax on mind and body." {GW 451.1}

A good pastor is worth every cent of the $50k per year they get in payment.

But I do not see anywhere in the Spirit of Prophecy that says we should be buying $250k homes for them to live in luxury. Most ministers in our denomination these days would be put to shame to see what conditions Mrs White was forced to live in much of her life because of the prejudice against her in those days inside our church. They would scrutinize her for buying a comfortable chair to sit in to write for hours on end the wonderful manuscripts God gave her for us. She gave all of the proceeds of her books, which would have made her very wealthy, to the cause.

These days I have to plead with a pastor to find occasion to meet.

I have seen pastors complain of their meager salaries compared to the world because they once "had it all". I counted three sermons where a pastor belabored the point that his million dollar company had been stolen from him and that he had planned this man's murder...from the pulpit he said these words. I have them recorded (eh Pastor Jerry Holt?)

I have seen others disappear from one Sabbath to the next as if it is not their duty to deal with anything outside the doors of the church (Eh Pastor David Kobliska?). This I think is something unacceptable.

I have personally witnessed these pastors leave our denomination for such frivolities. To go on and take jobs with more pay to get their fill of this world. I have been warned that these men will not enjoy the heaven they preach unless they repent.

[epaminondas]

Interesting observation; I am impressed as I have not the ability to know what a person is thinking or concentrating on during the sermon or song servce.

I don't base my decision on what I think they're thinking. They're clearly busy with something else, sometimes talking so loudly behind me it bothers me. And they can't sing with closed mouths, standing there looking glum, staring straight ahead or at the floor.

[epaminondas]

Where would the Christian church be today without one of the most educated men of his time, the apostle Paul?

Paul was a tradesman, a tent maker. See Acts 18:3.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The problem with some educated people is they think their education is the be all and end all, and forget that Christ can teach them more in a moment than they can learn on their own without Him in a lifetime.

I had a friend at university who once said of the great unwashed that they can smell brains and that they hate the smell. I can't remember what caused it. I've found it to be true on quite a few occasions. In honour of this former friend - I haven't seen him in decades - I call it the Groves dictum.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Many pastors seem trained in tactics of debate - that's not for me.

I refuse to debate spiritual issues. To me, when the debate begins, the Holy spirit leaves.

Debate is all about winning an argument.

Spirituality is all about the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the commitment of the person to follow.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

But I do not see anywhere in the Spirit of Prophecy that says we should be buying $250k homes for them to live in luxury. Most ministers in our denomination these days would be put to shame to see what conditions Mrs White was forced to live in much of her life because of the prejudice against her in those days inside our church. They would scrutinize her for buying a comfortable chair to sit in to write for hours on end the wonderful manuscripts God gave her for us. She gave all of the proceeds of her books, which would have made her very wealthy, to the cause.

In many places in the country, a $250,000 home is a very moderate one. It is clearly not expensive. The land that it sits on may be valued at $75,000.

In order to serve the congregation that a person pastors, that person should live in the same area of the church and congregation. Yet, some of our pastors cannot afford to do so.

Some travel 100 miles one way to get to the church. That does not provide good pastoral care.

Do you think that the pastor of a congregation in New York City could reasonably be expected to find adequate living quarters for family for $250,000?

\

[Gregory Matthews]

There are two issues that involve payment of a pastor:

1) Should the pastor devote full-time to ministry, or should the pastor have a full-time job and devote spare time to ministry.

2)What is the quality of pastoral care desired by the congregation?

A true story:

John Smith felt called to work for the Lord. So, he moved to a small town, miles from anywhere, of about 5,000 people with a very small SDA congregation.

The local Conference agreed to provide John with a $5,000 stipend, paid on a monthly basis, for the first 12 months that John was in the area. At the end of that 12 month period, the stipend would end.

John took a night job cleaning classrooms for the local school district.

At the end of the 12 month period, the annual stipend of $5,000 ended, as had been planned. Unfortunately, John had not understood that there was no possibility that it would be extended beyond the 12 month period.

I occasionally, when visiting relatives in the State where John was located, attended his services. I recall one sermon that John preached in which he stated that one of the proofs of Christianity was that the living blood of the crucified Christ had been discovered. Sorry folks, John simply did not understand "brownian movement" as well as some other things.

I had a lot of respect for John. I interacted with the Conference in an attempt to get the Conference to give John greater support, both financially and in training for the position.

The bottom line is: What do we expect from our clergy?

Frankly, there is probably a place for people like John as well as for full-time paid clergy.

NOTE: I have not given the real name of John.

[Gerr]

I've been pondering this question recently and your thoughts would be appreciated.

Would you like to be a pastor and not receive a salary?

[Gerr]

I think moving pastors every 4 yrs is a thing of the past. They probably have come to realize the cost. Moving one pastor usually involves moving at LEAST one other pastor, but since it is not a matter of just exchanging pastors, that usually means moving a few others as well.