Beyond Belief: X-SDAs leaving for non-SDA doctrine

[joeb]

"God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself. He had vowed to God.... The purity of heaven will never be marred with his society." Child Guidance pg 452

Presumption. He wanted God to do for him what God had already given him the power to do for himself. Make a determined effort to change. Set your alarm clock, get up, offer the morning sacrafice, because God will not do that for you.

Humanity working with divinity. I do believe this concept of the dual roll is the biggest reason we are still trying to figure out rigtheousness by faith. One sermon you may hear is about the need to keep the law. The next may be all about we can do nothing of ourselves, it's all about faith. We see the same conflict in the New Testament! When, where, how you apply either one, or both, like war, is very fluid. The balance is constantly shifting through out the day.

THIS is the narrow path. Without guidance from the throne of God, continually, you will loose your balance. Wait for it, here comes again....

What guidance has the Father provided that might help us stay on the narrow path? The same kind of guidance He gave to the children of Israel, a book, written by a prophet to explain the law. The Father is not going to read the book to you, you will have to set aside time, make a determined effort to study if for yourself. To WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[ClubV12]

Joeb, I hope some day you are able to figure what the book of James is all about. There was quite a debate about whether to include that book in the bible during KJV time because of it's apparent disagreement with the counsel of Paul. The debate about law and faith go back farther than that.

If you just read James, you might think it's all about works. If you just read Paul, you might think it's all about faith.

A.T. Jones had similiar trouble understanding the balance between these two issues. Sister White counseled him that he made to much of faith. As she counseld others who made to much of works. Jones not only rejected the counsel of the prophet but also the out stretched hands of his brethren begging him to listen. He eventually left the Church and yet he was a man used of God and was a great blessing to many others.

I am not surprised you don't seem to grasp, and even reject, my position. Such has been the case for centuries. Such has been the case since 1888 in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

One more time, let me say.

We all have a work to do. There is a time to pray and a time to get off your knee's and go to work. There is a time to drink the milk of the gospel and a time for solid food. The ability to DETERMINE to do your part is a God given gift. In this we see that NOTHING we can do in any respect warrants salvation. And yet, there ARE some things each one of us MUST do or we will certainly LOOSE salvation.

Keep searching, keep digging and God bless.

Here we see a man who lost his soul because he failed to understand the balance between humanity and divinity working together.

"God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself. He had vowed to God.... The purity of heaven will never be marred with his society." Child Guidance pg 452

[joeb]

Joeb, I hope some day you are able to figure what the book of James is all about. There was quite a debate about whether to include that book in the bible during KJV time because of it's apparent disagreement with the counsel of Paul. The debate about law and faith go back farther than that.

If you just read James, you might think it's all about works. If you just read Paul, you might think it's all about faith.

A.T. Jones had similiar trouble understanding the balance between these two issues. Sister White counseled him that he made to much of faith. As she counseld others who made to much of works. Jones not only rejected the counsel of the prophet but also the out stretched hands of his brethren begging him to listen. He eventually left the Church and yet he was a man used of God and was a great blessing to many others.

I am not surprised you don't seem to grasp, and even reject, my position. Such has been the case for centuries. Such has been the case since 1888 in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

One more time, let me say.

We all have a work to do. There is a time to pray and a time to get off your knee's and go to work. There is a time to drink the milk of the gospel and a time for solid food. The ability to DETERMINE to do your part is a God given gift. In this we see that NOTHING we can do in any respect warrants salvation. And yet, there ARE some things each one of us MUST do or we will certainly LOOSE salvation.

Keep searching, keep digging and God bless.

Here we see a man who lost his soul because he failed to understand the balance between humanity and divinity working together.

"God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself. He had vowed to God.... The purity of heaven will never be marred with his society." Child Guidance pg 452

I went and read the context of your quote here from CG. The message of that entire paragraph is much different than the tiny exerpt which you have given here.

God had given the man victory over his sins and he went back to them. He then indulged them time and time again until he was completely controlled by the devil. He was like the dog eating his own vomit.

You call his behavior surrender of self? You have a major problem with reading comprehension if you do.

[ClubV12]

No context required Joeb, there are lots of quotes that speak to our responsibility. Quotes like, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". I don't need the paragraph before and after, the sentence can stand on it's own. This Sister White quote is another that can stand on it's own, it is very simple. This man ask God to do for him what he had in his own power to for himself. Power God had already given him. Thats not complicated, it's not twisted, it's not out of context.

I guess you could analyze it to pieces and even write a book on it. How, why, what it means, is God at fault, what IS our responsibility concerning inherited and cultivated tendencies toward evil? How DO we overcome? Does an addict loose his addicition the minute he "gives his will to God" or accpets righteousness by faith or feels the love?

"He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself."

He failed to work our his own salvation with fear and trembling. And yet, he earnestly prayed for days for the victory? This really is a troubling account on several levels. What DOES it mean? Different people may have different opinions, I will not say yours is wrong just because it's different than mine. I am not interested in intimidating or forcing you to accept my opinion. I am not questioning your ability to read and comprehend.

Let every man be convinced in his own heart what this sentence means.

Sister White speaks of time when your prayers go no higher than the ceiling. Why? This man asked for forgiveness, but he was not forgiven. In fact, he will not be found in heaven. What DOES this mean?

[ClubV12]

We see from the biblical record that NO prophet was infallible. We KNOW for a certainty that not EVERY word in the bible is inspired. It is FACT that bible contains error.

People love to point out these things concerning Sister Whites work. I see her work to be no different than any other prophet that came before her. Human kind is subject to error, no matter who you are, how close to God you are, even if your prophet, you WILL make mistakes!

Do you know where the bible contains errors? Do you know where the bible author has offered his OWN OPINION? Both statements are true, of both the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. People spend a LOT of time tracking down supposed error and personal opinion in both cases.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

Several posts that were mostly ad hominem commentary and direct responses to them have been removed from this thread.

Stick to the topic and not to each other.

[joeb]

No context required Joeb, there are lots of quotes that speak to our responsibility. Quotes like, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". I don't need the paragraph before and after, the sentence can stand on it's own. This Sister White quote is another that can stand on it's own, it is very simple. This man ask God to do for him what he had in his own power to for himself. Power God had already given him. Thats not complicated, it's not twisted, it's not out of context.

I guess you could analyze it to pieces and even write a book on it. How, why, what it means, is God at fault, what IS our responsibility concerning inherited and cultivated tendencies toward evil? How DO we overcome? Does an addict loose his addicition the minute he "gives his will to God" or accpets righteousness by faith or feels the love?

"He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself."

He failed to work our his own salvation with fear and trembling. And yet, he earnestly prayed for days for the victory? This really is a troubling account on several levels. What DOES it mean? Different people may have different opinions, I will not say yours is wrong just because it's different than mine. I am not interested in intimidating or forcing you to accept my opinion. I am not questioning your ability to read and comprehend.

Let every man be convinced in his own heart what this sentence means.

Sister White speaks of time when your prayers go no higher than the ceiling. Why? This man asked for forgiveness, but he was not forgiven. In fact, he will not be found in heaven. What DOES this mean?

I find it interesting that you see nothing wrong with ripping a short sentence or two out of a paragraph that says something completely different than you make it out to say. This is the second time I've seen you do it. It says a lot about you. More than you know.

So long, Club. I leave you to your own behavior.

[ClubV12]

It has been my experience that to often "context" is used in a way to obscure a simple statement. To even excuse the plain testimony. Even to turn it's meaning into the opposite of what is being said! I certainly agree there is a time and place for context. We need it very much in understanding the bible. Then again, there are plenty of simple, one line statements, that stand alone. From the bible and from Ellen Whites work. Not every case needs or even warrants context. And what one see's in that verse or quote will vary depending on many different factors. So it is with this particular Ellen White one line sentence.

To ask God to do for you something He has given you the power to do already is the sin of presumption.

To think we have no roll to play, no will to make a choice is to promote the doctrine of "once saved always saved". To say there is nothing I can do, God has to do it for me, is spiritual laziness. It erases and makes void the true understanding of righteousness by faith.

Speak (and write and act) as if your faith was invincible. Ellen White said that, it's a statement that stands on it's own.

[rktreadwell]

Hey Ozark Woman. Here's a question for you. What is the Adventist church without EGW?

[whatisthis]

I'm not Ozark Woman, but I wonder why, lol, I'd have to do without Ellen's writings since they (unlike people who quote them out of context) uplift my heart! But, remember that this church was forming even when Luther said "Here I stand, I can do no else" and when Newton explained the 2300 days as well as the apple falling. Seventh Day Adventists are part of a long legacy of hope that is founded square on Jesus the cornerstone that builders rejected. Isn't He your Creator, Redeemer, and King? Aren't you hoping for His soon return? Aren't you glad to commemorate Who created you? Then worship and rejoice with SDA's! Hope everyone had a happy Sabbath!

[Ted Oplinger]

Hey Ozark Woman. Here's a question for you. What is the Adventist church without EGW?

What is the Adventist Church without Ellen White? A church that still carries forward the responsibility of giving the 3 Angels' messages.

Hmmm...rktreadwell - every single one of your posts exudes a hostility to Ellen White. Care to share in a devoted thread?

Blessings,

[BobRyan]

"If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right."

Evangelism pg 258

Interesting.

Of course I don't think we are expecting non-SDAs who know little about the Bible doctrine on prophecy or the doctrines of the Bible specific to these end times - to be included in the warning above - but I think that the proverbial "one or two" SDAs over time have fit into a position where that warning above would be applicable.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

That is a question many of us deal with Bob, HOW do you encourage fellow members to hold the banner high, to hold the standards high without coming off as radical in some way?

In the larger Church I used to attend there were times I left after the sermon with literally tears of joy because the Pastor, or a visiting Pastor was preaching just that! Recognizing that Gods law is a thing of beauty and we must not take it lightly. Sermons delivered with courage, truth and LOVE! In a humble way. Talking the straight talk. Movies, TV, reading material, diet, dress, I've heard all these subjects presented in a way that left me praising God for His appointed messengers!

Not every sermon, and I'm OK with that, but often enough.

Southern Union ASI just met and Randy Skeete was the keynote speaker with a couple of very powerful messages along that line.

It was great!

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

I haven't carefully read this entire thread; but from what I have read, it seems like there is one thing missing - BALANCE! We are saved solely by grace. Grace alone. Works does not enter into the salvation equation at all. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags. None of us is righteous - not; not even one. we have all fallen short of the glory of God. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works lest any should boast.

That being said, what is the evidence of grace working in our lives? It is the works that grace empowers us to do. Works are the evidence of our being saved by grace - the result of grace working in our lives. In other words, (and I've said this so many times) good works and obedience are the RESULT of grace working in our lives; not the PREREQUISITE. Nonetheless, we digress ...

[rktreadwell]

You're right. You are not Ozark Woman.

[ClubV12]

It's an open forum rktreadwell, when you ask a question it will generate replies from various people. Thats just how forums work you see, perhaps you are new to forums in general. Hope this helps.

JoeMo, I appreciate your mention of grace. If our "works" don't flow from a heart of love, they mean nothing.

There is another side to that coin, "Taste and see that the Lord is good." Early on I decided I would attempt to incorporate into my life some of the principles of the Adventist lifestyle. It took some planning, some thinking, a decided and determined effort, it took some "work". I have been SO impressed with the results, I started doing more on "faith". Not really understanding "why" or "how" it should work, but believing it was likely a good thing. And sure enough, surprised again! The counsel is hard to beat, THIS IS the way to live! The end result is I wound up thanking God and praising His name for the excellent counsel! The journey continues...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It's an open forum rktreadwell, when you ask a question it will generate replies from various people. Thats just how forums work you see, perhaps you are new to forums in general. Hope this helps.

While that is true, wouldn't it be more polite to let the person to whom the question is directed respond first - then others could chime in - agreeing, dissenting, or offering a completely alternative view?

It can be irritating when someone else responds to a question posed directly to a specific person.

But then, I tend to see things in a different light than many people...

[debbym]

Quote:

Quote:

by clubv12 - "If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right."

Evangelism pg 258

By Bob Ryan - Interesting.

Of course I don't think we are expecting non-SDAs who know little about the Bible doctrine on prophecy or the doctrines of the Bible specific to these end times - to be included in the warning above - but I think that the proverbial "one or two" SDAs over time have fit into a position where that warning above would be applicable.

in Christ,

it is not natural to respond to God and to love those truths that help us become more humble. It is supernatural. no one ha a monopoly on Humility and Love for God.

If you express where you are at honestly and sincerely and you are not able to harmonize with features of the sda faith and experience, God bless you and be with you, and help you grow where you are at.

and those who are in a place where you can cherish these things do so, without pointing any fingers. everyone is a combination of strengths and weaknesses, everyone is deeply loved by God just the same.

people leave the church when they lose the fit. I am concerned that they are not experiencing The mercy and love of God. How Good are we at Living to show God's love to those around us.

If knowledge is needed it must be shared in Love or it will be useless.

[ClubV12]

DebbyM, I think you may be referring to this aspect of those who are unsure of the gift.

"Some, I was shown, could receive the published visions, judging of the tree by its fruits. Others are like doubting Thomas; they cannot believe the published Testimonies, nor receive evidence through the testimony of others, but must see and have the evidence for themselves. Such must not be set aside, but long patience and brotherly love should be exercised toward them until they find their position and become established for or against." Testimonies, vol. 1, pp. 327-329

Honesty and sincerity are not proof of truth. We do not base our theology and doctrine on "feelings". Love may be nothing more than false sympathy and sentilmentalism. Professed love for the people is the hall mark of a dictator! Drug lords take real good care of the people in the towns close to them and the people love the drug lord!

Here is how the Church can know, regardless of how sincere and loving they may appear to be:

"If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right."--Testimonies, vol. 1, pp. 327-329

There are a number of off shoots that attend my Church. They are deeply sincere and honest. They rudely proclaim the Church to be Babylon right in the middle of Sabbath School class. They like to argue about it whenever given the chance. How will I discern between those seeking to understand the nature of the Church and those who are "fighting against" it? It's not that difficult!

[ClubV12]

Perhaps the more pertinent question this thread raises is:

What does the Church, how do you, respond to those who are fighting against the Church in some way? As well as to those who have no faith in the doctines and are leaving?

[debbym]

it is not loving to allow disruption to church services, and sabbath school. It is not kind to support and encourage disrespect.

there are firm and gracious ways to maintain order.

Churches in my conference have had to disallow certain individuals from coming to church when all they have done is be disruptive and try to pull members right out of the church from the foyer to come to meetings where they tear down the church.

It does happen.

i have also seen people critical of church doctrine but the basis of it is that they were disrespected and offended by church family.

now you are specifically mentioning individuals who are outspoken against the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in Spiritual visions. "Others are like doubting Thomas; they cannot believe the published Testimonies, nor receive evidence through the testimony of others, but must see and have the evidence for themselves. Such must not be set aside, but long patience and brotherly love should be exercised toward them.:"

i am indeed looking at the patience and brotherly love. you are looking at how to respectfully disengage them from the church services where they are uncomfortable with what is being taught and causing disruption.

Divine love is not self seeking, and can deal with things in a way that leaves no excuse for those turning away. they will be found turning away by their choice. Divine love respects that choice, and is still able to preserve order in the church service, respectfully.

[ClubV12]

DebbyM says,

"it is not loving to allow disruption to church services, and sabbath school. It is not kind to support and encourage disrespect."

So, what WOULD you do? Can we assume from your statement below that you would "love them" and not do anything else?

"i am indeed looking at the patience and brotherly love. you are looking at how to respectfully disengage them from the church services where they are uncomfortable with what is being taught and causing disruption."

Does this mean your "patience and brotherly love" is without limit and you would NEVER under ANY circumstances ask someone to leave the Church?

Why do you ASSUME that that would be what I WOULD do without employing either "patience or brotherly love"? I have made no assumptions about what you would do.

What does Sister White say we should do, specifically, with those who "fight against" the gift of prophecy? Does she say, as you suggest I would do, remove them from Church? And you ASSUME here that in my case that would NOT be done using "patience" and "brotherly love".

Read the last line in the full quote where she says EXACTLY what we are to do with those who "fight against" the gift of prophecy. "WORK with them". To do what? To bring them to a point where they either accept or reject the counsel. To help them make a decision. Why do you assume I would simply remove such from Church?

"...until they find their position and become established for or against." Or, you can love them to death by doing nothing.

Everyone causing a disruption has some "good reason". Maybe they WERE hurt by the Church? Maybe they have not yet seen the light? Maybe the babies diaper needs changing and the mother doesn't know what to do? If there IS a disruption it needs love in action, somebody needs to do, something. Regardless of what is causing it.

[ClubV12]

My Church wants to shut down my Sabbath School class, dissolve it. It is frequented by off shoots and radicals because they are accepted, even encouraged by myself, to attend that class. They do not feel welcome in a regular class. The Board and the Head Elder are almost fed up with the disruptions from people in that class.

But I have asked for more time, where would these people go if the class shut down? Some of them I see are precious souls who have not yet settled into error. I have hope for them, I have pled with the Church on their behalf.

Some of them, have been warned they may be asked to stop coming to Church entirely if they cannot stop the outbursts. YOU want to run MY class? It will give you a whole new idea on this "love" thing we so casually throw around because the word sounds so lofty and religious.

I submit, it is to often sentalmentalism, false sympathy, you may be loving them right into their eternal grave.

I am not currently the teacher in that class. A fellow who does not believe in the six day creation is the current teacher. I removed myself, he volunteered and was accepted. Frankly, I grew tired of being called a Nazi and a pharisee.

[debbym]

Quote:

Why do you ASSUME that that would be what I WOULD do without employing either "patience or brotherly love"? I have made no assumptions about what you would do.

i have made no assumptions about anything you should or should not do. your response feels negative and amplified. i really do not understand why.

i don't know why you would go there actually.

it is just a discussion.

i think there is a time when the offenders in our conference have been taken aside by the minister and boundaries set on acceptable and not acceptable behavior in church.

but i know it was done graciously and tactfully. not suggesting you would be any less tactful or gracious.

nothing wrong with good boundaries. being loving is not about losing boundaries.

no i was not saying love and do not action. i was merely differentiating the area of my emphasis in contrast with the area of your emphasis. that is ok. God may call me to the gift of ministering in a different way then he has called you.

great! wonderful. that is a good thing. we are not all the same. God has more then one tool in His tool chest.

[rktreadwell]

Yes, clubv, you need to raise your hand before I call on you.