The situation between the SDA and the SDARM?

[Sojourner]

In my state there are a number of SDA churches and several more being planted, there is also a church that has been there ever since I remember called the Seventh Day Adventist Reform movement. What I wondered is what the key complaints are from the SDARM movement towards the SDA and what steps have been taken over the years to try and resolve this issue? What changes do the SDARM require of the SDA before in their view it can be reformed and the two groups can become one?

[debbym]

read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Day_Adventist_Reform_Movement

from the wiki site. - "Post War World II relations with Seventh-day Adventist Church

In 2005, the mainstream Seventh-day Adventist church tried to make amends and apologized for its failures during World War II, as the issue from the actions of L. R. Conradi continued during that war also.[27] Some members see it as the first attempts to reconcile the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement with the mainstream Seventh-day Adventist church. However, the actions of the SDA Church towards those who took a conscientious stand against all military service during World War 1, were not acknowledged in the apology. The position of the SDA Church towards those engaged in military service, particularly combatants, remains an unresolved issue today."

the reformed movement was intolerant of any military involvement of it's members. The main church accepted non-combatant roles, and left it to the individual what level of combatant role they chose during war. this remains unresolved.

the reform movement also divided within it's self

from the wiki site. - "Post 1952 Re-Unification Attempts - IMS and SDARM General Conference

With both factions formally organised, affiliations of Union and Field Conferences associated under one or the other of the two corporate administrations. Though they remained separate both in administration and worship, the theological beliefs espoused by each entity's adherents were common to both.[24] Despite this common platform of belief, tensions from the 1951 schism continued to remain high. Consequently, official efforts in 1967 and again in 1993 to reconcile both administrations at a General Conference level were unsuccessful."

so there are three groups with unity in all Bible doctrines, but differences in in area's that are not the core beliefs. And all seem agreeable to have things remain as they are.

Thank-you for the question, i learned a lot on this one.

[Gregory Matthews]

The issues that that relate to the formation of the SDA Reform Movement are exceedingly complex and generally not fully understood. Case in point: The Wikipedia reference contains much that is factual. Yet, it totally fails to mention major issues that were associated with the WW-II area. It is only in very recent years that historians have begun to get a sense of these issues. That sense today is only a beginning sense.

The primary historian associated with this increasing knowledge of the context in which the SDA Reform Movement developed is a SDA history professor at a New York school. I am trying to recall his name.

Thanks to Google: Ronald Lawson (1940-) is a professor emeritus of the Urban Studies Department at Queens College, the City University of New York.

He is the one.

The bottom line: There was sin on both sides--on the part of certain specific SDA leaders and on the part of certain of the leaders of what we now call the SDA Reform Movement.

Attempts have been made to heal the breach, but more extensive than Wikipedia suggests. Those attempts have failed. Over time, the SDA Reform movement has had its own problems and it now exists in two main divisions.

At one time their members were aggressive in attempting to convert SDAS. My interactions with them dates back for more than 50 years. At the present, they are more content to live their own life and not to seek confrontations with the SDA Church.

As an interesting fact: The Denver Metro area is the regional headquarters of the SDA Church (Rocky Mountain Conference) and the SDA Reform Movement.

[Stan]

There are more than one reform movements..

this one is east coast

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Day...Virginia.2C_USA

there is also one in Sacramento area as well

Yet another one is based out of Toronto Canada,

[Gregory Matthews]

Correct: As I last understood it, there were two major divisions in the Reform Movement. But, I may not be up to date and here may be more now.

[Gregory Matthews]

http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhdayAdventists/NaziAdventists.htm

I cannot find the name of the SDA historian whom, I believe, has done the best work in this area.

The above cites another SDA historian.

His view, is dated and incomplete in light of current knowledge. In one sense, it is one-sided.

In any case, we have more knowledge today, but clearly not the full picture. There is more that we need to know.

[Gregory Matthews]

http://www.sdanet.org/steve/articles/R.Lawson:Onward_Christian_Soldiers

To access the above article, you will need to paste the above in as your search address. You will not be able to access it simply by clicking on it.

he above is an article by Ronald Lawson that deals more generally with the SDA church and conscientious objection. I have pasted it here due to the fact that gives a very brief discussion of the situation in Germany that is part of the background for the formation of the SDA Reform Movement.

[Stan]

link should work now.

[LynnDel]

I was invited to visit one of the the Sacramento SDARM churches for a special occasion recently and enjoyed the experience very much. They meet in a Sunday church that they rent. Almost all the members are from Eastern Europe and dress very much in what we might call an "older-looking" style. The average age is quite a bit younger than in most SDA churches in this area. They told me they do not believe in a paid minister to serve a particular church. There is a paid minister who supervises the area churches, but normally a lay person speaks. They were very positive that this is the best way for ministers to serve. On the day that I attended, the speaker used a lot of Bible verses, and in each case he called on various children to read. I don't know if they each had practiced their verses ahead of time, but they all did a fabulous job - no mistakes, and loud enough for all to hear without a microphone.

The potluck afterwards was especially delicious (they had just finished a special cooking class over previous weeks, and I think we were reaping the results - YUM), and we had a good visit.

None of them said anything critical to me against the larger body of SDA.

LD

[Gordon1]

Refreshing!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

None of them said anything critical to me against the larger body of SDA.

This is generally the approach that they take today, which is a change from their past.

Quote:

. . .the members. . .dress very much in what we might call an "older-looking" style.

This stems from their understanding and application of EGW's comments about how one should dress.

[Gordon1]

...their understanding and application of EGW's comments...

Refreshing!

[Gregory Matthews]

I call it like I see it. That is why I stated that at the time of their beginning, there was sin on both sides.

In the years that I had my most contact with them, they would have criticized my current dress. Yet most SDAs would consider my wife and I to be conservative--we do not wear wedding rings and other such.

NOTE: I do not criticize those who do. I am simply pointing out where they are, as I have experienced them. I wear neckties that they would have thought to have had to much color in them. I wear tie-pins that they would not have approved of. At the time I had most contact with them, Their approved tie pin was a safety-pin.

[LynnDel]

I have friends who came from SDARM to SDA, and they tell me that, in general, they are rather rigid and critical about externals. They also do not celebrate Christmas or Easter.

LD

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I have friends who came from SDARM to SDA, and they tell me that, in general, they are rather rigid and critical about externals. They also do not celebrate Christmas or Easter.

Correct, as I understand them.

This is different from how they now relate to people outside of their group--the mainline SDAs.

[Gail]

We used to have a family that came into the store to look at our used books. They were friendly enough :)

[ClubV12]

A couple of folks in my local regular Seventh-day Adventist Church wear a very plain, simple, lays flat, black, bow tie (for lack of a better thing to call it). I have been critized in the foyer, during Church, for wearing a perfectly normal not at all flashy or brightly colored regular tie. Just so folks know SDARM have not cornered the market on criticism. There is a SDARM Church not far from my house. I have had lovely visits with them.

[OzarkWoman]

I have friends who came from SDARM to SDA, and they tell me that, in general, they are rather rigid and critical about externals. They also do not celebrate Christmas or Easter.

LD

Well, the fact is that if one is going to make a big deal about how terrible Halloween is then celebrates Christmas and/or Easter, they are hypocrites. They are all pagan holidays.

I don't, and haven't celebrated any of those holidays for many years before I even became an SDA member.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Well, the fact is that if one is going to make a big deal about how terrible Halloween is then celebrates Christmas and/or Easter, they are hypocrites. They are all pagan holidays.

Yes, and the 2nd day of the week is dedicated to the honor of the moon-god. There is a pagan history only if you celebrate it as such.

Are you aware that every day of the year, all 365 days, is dedicated to a pagan god? That is true in Hinduism.

While Christmas is clearly not close to the birth of Christ, Easter is close to the actual death of Christ. Easter in the modern Christian year is clearly a Christian celebration.

Yes, one can chose to celebrate Easter in the spirit of pagan tradition. But, that is not required. One can celebrate in the spirit of Christ.

This is a choice that we individually make on much more.

Baptism began prior to the life of Christ. Baptism clearly has a non-Christian back ground and is celebrated today in pagan rituals.

Some of the Sanctuary ritual of ancient Israel came from the pagan background of Egypt.

"Laying on of hands" clearly has anon-Christian background.

It is your individual choice as to how you wish to view Christian symbols.

[ClubV12]

Mondays are moon day? OK thats it, no more Mondays for me!

[M. T. Cross]

The currently used names of the days of the week are for the most part named after the Aesir, northern Gods.

[LynnDel]

Didn't our early adventists call the days of the week by their number rather than their name for that reason? I dimly remember something like that.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Didn't our early adventists call the days of the week by their number rather than their name for that reason? I dimly remember something like that.

Yes, some did exactly that.

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is a detailed explaination of the days of the week and the gods associated with those names.

Quote:

The Germanic peoples adapted the system introduced by the Romans but glossed their indigenous gods over the Roman deities (with the exception of Saturday) in a process known as Interpretatio germanica. The date of the introduction of this system is not known exactly, but it must have happened later than AD 200 but before the introduction of Christianity during the 6th to 7th centuries, i.e., during the final phase or soon after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.[7] This period is later than the Common Germanic stage, but still during the phase of undifferentiated West Germanic. The names of the days of the week in Scandinavian languages were not calqued from Latin directly, but taken from the West Germanic names.

Sunday: Old English Sunnandæg (pronounced [sun.nan.dæg] or [sun.nan.dæj), meaning "sun's day." This is a translation of the Latin phrase dies Solis. English, like most of the Germanic languages, preserves the original pagan/sun associations of the day. Many other European languages, including all of the Romance languages, have changed its name to the equivalent of "the Lord's day" (based on Ecclesiastical Latin dies Dominica). In both West Germanic and North Germanic mythology the Sun is personified as a goddess, Sunna/Sól.

Monday: Old English Mōnandæg (pronounced [mon.nan.dæg] or [mon.nan.dæj'), meaning "Moon's day." This is likely based on a translation of the Latin name dies lunae. In North Germanic mythology, the Moon is personified as a god, Máni.

Tuesday: Old English Tīwesdæg (pronounced [ti.wes.dæg] or [ti.wes.dæj], meaning "Tiw's day." Tiw (Norse Týr) was a one-handed god associated with single combat and pledges in Norse mythology and also attested prominently in wider Germanic paganism. The name of the day is based on Latin dies Martis, "Day of Mars" (the Roman war god).

Wednesday: Old English Wōdnesdæg (pronounced [woːd.nes.dæg] or [woːd.nes.dæj) meaning the day of the Germanic god Wodan (known as Óðinn among the North Germanic peoples), and a prominent god of the Anglo-Saxons (and other Germanic peoples) in England until about the seventh century. It is based on Latin dies Mercurii, "Day of Mercury." The connection between Mercury and Odin is more strained than the other syncretic connections. The usual explanation is that both Wodan and Mercury were considered psychopomps, or leaders of souls, in their respective mythologies; both are also associated with poetic and musical inspiration. The Icelandic Miðviku, German Mittwoch and Finnish keskiviikko all mean mid-week.

Thursday: Old English Þūnresdæg (pronounced [θuːn.res.dæg] or [θuːn.res.dæj]), meaning 'Þunor's day'. Þunor means thunder or its personification, the Norse god known in Modern English as Thor. Similarly German Donnerstag ('thunder's day') and Scandinavian Torsdag ('Thor's day'). Thor's day corresponds to Latin dies Iovis, "day of Jupiter", the chief of the Roman gods, wielder of the thunderbolt.

Friday: Old English Frīgedæg (pronounced [fri.je.dæg] or [fri.je.dæj]), meaning the day of the Norse goddess Fríge. The Norse name for the planet Venus was Friggjarstjarna, 'Frigg's star'. It is based on the Latin dies Veneris, "Day of Venus." Venus was the Roman goddess of beauty, love and sex.

Saturday: the only day of the week to retain its Roman origin in English, named after the Roman god Saturn associated with the Titan Cronus, father of Zeus and many Olympians. Its original Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg (pronounced [sæ.tur.nes.dæg] or [sæ.tur.nes.dæj]). In Latin it was dies Saturni, "Day of Saturn." The Scandinavian Lørdag/Lördag deviates significantly as it has no reference to either the Norse or the Roman pantheon; it derives from old Norse laugardagr, literally "washing-day."

[lazarus]

Quote:

Didn't our early adventists call the days of the week by their number rather than their name for that reason? I dimly remember something like that.

Yes, some did exactly that.

That's interesting. Any references that I could look up?