Use of Tongues in SDA meetings?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

In EVERY example I have seen and know about, the counterfeit manifests itself at either a "glory point" in the sermon - where the congregants' emotions are riding high, or during a "deep spiritual" prayer, where the congregants' minds are focused solely upon the spiritual. This is where the Deceiver uses the counterfeit to maximize the effect upon the psyche.

I have been around charismatics a lot; and I agree in general. However, I have witnessed people (usually the speaker or members of a prayer ministry team) get a 10-second case of what I call "the jerks" or "the twitch" and exhale a long "shoooooooo" or "shhhhabaabaa" or something like that. I won't say it is from the devil - some of these people are personal friends and some of the kindest and most gregarious lovers of Jesus that I know. I have personally felt (or imagined) the presence of the Spirit when this has occured - even gotten an occasional shiver myself.

I have never personally witnessed a case where a person speaks in tongues involuntarily, or receives the "gift" without seeking it.

For myself, I hesitate to summarily dismiss or condemn it. I know too many people that are far more productive Christians than what I consider myself to be that cherish their gift of tongues. "By their fruits you shall know them".

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

At 1:56-1:58 there is an audible moment where the speaker sounds as if he's saying, "sha-na-na-na bush-ka, sha-na-na-na bush-ka". I do believe this is the audio in question. To me, it looks at though he is speaking directly to the few people who are coming to surround him for the prayer. It's possible it's something in another language.

I heard a single phrase stated twice which sounded something like the above, but not exactly.

To me it reminded me of a language.

[Woody]

Quote:

bush-ka

Perhaps this was in reference to the opening of the Bush Presidential Library tomorrow.

[Stan]

this whole thing about Barry Black is so overstated... there is ONE WORD that is hard to tell what he is saying.. ONE WORD.

[olger]

I take my tongue to church every Sabbath.

And speak with it!!!

[ClubV12]

JoeMo, we can use the fruits of an event, better the overall fruits of a persons like since professing Jesus, but we must also apply the law and the testimony. Seventh-day Adventists take the meaning of the testimony of Jesus to mean the spirit of prophecy. And this was considered exemplified in the life of Ellen White. Side note: Comparing the fruit of her work, plus the law AND the testimony of those prophets who came before her, I concur with the Church on her gift.

The bible record certainly points to the gift of tongues primarily as the use of a foreign language to preach the gospel. But I can understand how some might see in the texts something that points to a heavenly, not an earthly language. Or perhaps the biblical verses in question are simply hooks upon which some may hang what they are already inclined to believe.

For these same reasons, fruits, law, testimony I put little weight on apparent divine manifestations, miracles and feelings. A.G. Daniels, an early pioneer felt the same way. He preferred to use fruits, law and testimony concerning his opinion on Ellen White and downplayed her divine physical manifestations. He did not dismiss them, just chose not to put to much emphasis on them.

When I review what the prophet, Ellen White, had to say about the manifestation and use of tongues I find the counsel to conclude it is a very dangerous path to walk. There were some who were using that gift in her day and they were very devout, very sincere and apparently deeply religious. However, Ellen White concluded their gift was not from the Holy Spirit, but from another spirit.

[BobRyan]

this whole thing about Barry Black is so overstated... there is ONE WORD that is hard to tell what he is saying.. ONE WORD.

Ok let's say someone knew for certain that the 7 syllables repeated twice in that video by Pastor Barry Black are not multiple words but really just one 7 syllable word repeated twice.

And let's assume that no matter how much it sounds like standard Charismatic speech - in reality it is an ordinary 7 syllable english word (or perhaps a 7 syllable word from the Australian outback) that just so happens to sound like the classic - every day Charismatic speech.

Wouldn't it be great if someone could confirm that highly unusual hard-to-imagine fact for us?

in Christ,

Bob

[Gregory Matthews]

I thought that it was two (2) words, repeated again--said twice.

[Sojourner]

I joined the Salvation Army as a young lad and as it happened our church split in half over the Pentecostal issues, our meetings were going more and more pentecostal and the leadership of the Salvation Army removed the minister and put in a traditional minister, the result was that the church split and people went off to belong to a local Pentecostal church, in this case it was an Apostolic church, I guess they have that denomination in the States.

So I ended up leaving and became a Pentecostal for several years. I met my wife there and enjoyed being a member of the church, I did not question the tongues or the other uses of Spiritual Gifts as it seemed to me that it was all in order with what the bible teaches on the subject. What I found was that there was two types of tongues used in their meetings, one was that a member would get up and in a loud voice speak in a tongue. The room would go quiet and someone else would get up and give the interpretation of that tongue. The other type of tongues would be a "Personal Prayer Language" and the support for this was given as Romans 8:26 "“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”

Long story short is that we left that church after rampant abuse of the Prosperity Gospel. For a time I did not go to church at all and then I found myself back at the Salvation Army. In more recent times I have begun attending meetings with the SDA near hear for various reasons.

In that time I have been to bible college and have spent a long time in study of the Bible over various things including the Pentecostal worship style. I have determined that I do not oppose Spiritual Gifts at all and that as long as those things are done in the exact way that the Bible commands then those are good things for the church. I do not believe however that what goes on at many meetings of Pentecostals is in line with what the Bible teaches. There is no "Private Prayer Language". that is not supported by Scripture. What Scripture does teach us is that if anyone speaks in an unknown tongue then it MUST be interpreted.

I realize now that the video I posted above has upset some people. I came across it after searching for Adventist and Tongues on YouTube. I am not the author of that video, and the first I ever saw of it was the other day when I found it. I have no idea what the chap is talking about with his Ellen White references as I have never read any of her books or material. What I will say on the matter though is that its quite obvious to me that he is speaking words in another tongue, there is nothing wrong with my sound system on this mac computer and its quite plain and obvious to me. Bob Ryan has suggested that these may be an Australian Aboriginal Language or African language. I doubt it, yet it stands that if it is then he is required by Scripture to interpret or have those words interpreted. All those Scripture references you apply to people that speak out of order and in confusion in Tongues apply in this case also.

I think the logical thing is for Barry to simply respond to the video either by denying it, explaining it or whatever else he chooses to do. I have no doubt that he is a very sincere Christian and SDA member and he should have a right of response to explain himself.

[ClubV12]

I like Olgers take on it, "unconfirmed". I'll go with the principle of "not imagining evil against my brother" until and unless there is more data.

Remember that skelton dropped on the floor in the living room? The one Ted moved to a closet labeled open for discussion?

The facts are these:

Ellen White was involved in miraculous healing through prayer and faith early in her ministry. She learned it was not always a good idea to pray for healing for someone because God just might answer that prayer of faith! And what then was the result of some of these miracle healings? Some of those healed did not go on to glorify God, they continued in a life of sin. God answered her prayer, but she realized she had prayed amiss. She changed her request to include, "IF it be thy will". Which she explained was not a lack of faith, it was an acknowledgement that we don't know what to pray for.

Ellen White was also present when other people spoke in a unknown tongue that could only be described as a heavenly language, not any earthly language. On at least two occasions the circumstances STRONGLY point to a divine intervention from God. She at first was reluctant to believe, until she received a vision confirming one of the messages that had been delivered earlier in an unknown tongue! She changed her counsel based on this "new light", a revelation that the men were correct in the message delivered by tongues. She had been wrong in speaking up and offering her thoughts without first consulting the Lord on His will. She, like any person, was learning how to interact with God and be sensitive to His leading.

These are the facts as we know we them from Adventist history. I do not condone tongues or miracle healing. I simply acknowledge there are times and circumstances God grants such miracles. I also recognize that just because He does, it is not necessarily a blessing to all involved.

[BobRyan]

The question here is two part.

Is da-sha-da-la-la-la-bosa the charismatic "word" that it appears to be or is it just native word from the Australian outback - or perhaps some other well known 7 syllable english word? If so - then it would certainly be unfair for someone to accuse Pastor Barry Black of pentecostal-like speaking in tongues.

Dare to listen "for yourself"

http://youtu.be/DDbdqc5_UG0

Let's let Pastor Black speak to the topic for a moment.

Let me now address the four distinct tenets of the Pentecostal and charismatic movements. The first tenet is that God the Holy Spirit reveals Himself in three primary phenomena. First, glossolalia-the manifestation of ecstatic utterances or a prayer language. Second, prophecy-what is sometimes referred to as a word of knowledge. And third, physical healing thought the laying on of hands. Hence Jason's Pentecostal mother's walking into his room shouting praises to God, speaking in tongues and speaking words of knowledge claiming her son's recovery was not pathology. In light of her son's total recovering against all odds, who am I to argue with her prognostication. But the point still remains that the Pentecostal and charismatic movements have had an incredible impact upon evangelical Protestantism.

http://yjhm.yale.edu/archives/spirit2004/denial/bblack.htm

He simply leaves the door open - so that nothing between the two events is inconsistent.

in Christ,

Bob

[lazarus]

Please be aware that speaking in a tongue that is not intelligible is not a sin. Let's suppose that Black did speak in a tongue that is unknown. Let's assumes that Black did say "da-sha-da-la-la-la-bosa". What is Pauls' counsel when something like that occurs? That action (speaking in a tongue that is not known) in and of itself is not a sin and does not make Black an apostate, or a Jesuit or anything else similar.

[BobRyan]

In 1Cor 14 Paul is not speaking about a false gift of tongues. He is condemning the wrong use of the real gift of tongues. If the false gift of tongues were being discussed - then it would not matter if they did it in an orderly manner or not - it would be condemned.

The jibberish gift of tongues is not from God at all. And is not what is discussed in 1Cor 14. The proof of that fact is that in 1Cor 14 Paul says that the real gift of tongues is a "sign to UNBELIEVERS".

Jibberish can never be a sign of anything but fanatical whackyness to the true unbeliever. No none Christian is going to say "WOW - pure gibberish! This is where I can find it?!! Praise God that means Christianity must be true after all!".

Neither is the non-Christian going to say "well I have been speaking the language of heaven with angels all my life and finally I found a group that also knows that language so well known to me and angels".

And I think we can all see that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[lazarus]

The jibberish gift of tongues is not from God at all. And is not what is discussed in 1Cor 14. The proof of that fact is that in 1Cor 14 Paul says that the real gift of tongues is a "sign to UNBELIEVERS".

I am clear as to what 1 Cor 14 is about. So is it clear to you that Black was talking in jibberish? You don't know what it is. The only grounds for condemnation are on the grounds that Paul sets out.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, Black mentioned four aspects of Pentacostal thinking. I think it might be of value to note that Black, prior to the aspeacts of Pentacostal thinking, mentioned four fundamentals of evangelical Protestantism. Here they are:

Quote:

There are four distinctive tenets to evangelical Protestantism. First is a belief in a personal conversion. It is based on Jesus' meeting with Nicodemus chronicled in John 3: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The second tenant is sola scriptura. It is the belief that the Bible is the sole source of revelatory knowledge. Evangelical Protestants are the children of the 16th Century reformation sparked by Martin Luther's struggle with the Roman Catholic Church. One of Luther's firm beliefs was the Bible and the Bible only. He was fond of quoting Second Timothy 3:16 and 17, "All scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction or instruction in righteousness that people of God may be perfect completely furnished unto all good works." It was the belief that scripture is the sole revelation for the believer that birthed evangelical Protestantism.

The third tenant is evangelization-global evangelization. There is almost a spiritual ethnocentrism in this tenant that is taken from what is called the Great Commission of Matthew 28:20, "Go and make disciples of humankind baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and lo I am with you always even until the end of the age." Jesus' final instruction to his disciples was global evangelization. That's why we travel near and far to preach Christ to the unbelieving-it is our commission.

The final distinctive tenet is the belief in the cross-the centrality of Calvary. The passion of the Christ is central to humanity's redemption, but also for our physical healing. In Matthew Chapter 18 the gospel writer chronicles Jesus healing hundreds. He tells us that this was done so that it might be fulfilled what was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet in Isaiah 53:4, "Surely he hath born our grief and carried our sorrows." It is the belief that there is a causal connection between sin and sickness. It is interesting that very often before Jesus healed people He first told them their sins were forgiven. In Mark four we see this when Jesus healed the paralytic.

[Guest]

Please be aware that speaking in a tongue that is not intelligible is not a sin. Let's suppose that Black did speak in a tongue that is unknown. Let's assumes that Black did say "da-sha-da-la-la-la-bosa". What is Pauls' counsel when something like that occurs? That action (speaking in a tongue that is not known) in and of itself is not a sin and does not make Black an apostate, or a Jesuit or anything else similar.

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; .. 1Cor 14:27,28

[Ted Oplinger]

Yes, Black mentioned four aspects of Pentacostal thinking. I think it might be of value to note that Black, prior to the aspeacts of Pentacostal thinking, mentioned four fundamentals of evangelical Protestantism. Here they are:

Quote:

There are four distinctive tenets to evangelical Protestantism. First is a belief in a personal conversion. It is based on Jesus' meeting with Nicodemus chronicled in John 3: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The second tenant is sola scriptura. It is the belief that the Bible is the sole source of revelatory knowledge. Evangelical Protestants are the children of the 16th Century reformation sparked by Martin Luther's struggle with the Roman Catholic Church. One of Luther's firm beliefs was the Bible and the Bible only. He was fond of quoting Second Timothy 3:16 and 17, "All scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction or instruction in righteousness that people of God may be perfect completely furnished unto all good works." It was the belief that scripture is the sole revelation for the believer that birthed evangelical Protestantism.

The third tenant is evangelization-global evangelization. There is almost a spiritual ethnocentrism in this tenant that is taken from what is called the Great Commission of Matthew 28:20, "Go and make disciples of humankind baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and lo I am with you always even until the end of the age." Jesus' final instruction to his disciples was global evangelization. That's why we travel near and far to preach Christ to the unbelieving-it is our commission.

The final distinctive tenet is the belief in the cross-the centrality of Calvary. The passion of the Christ is central to humanity's redemption, but also for our physical healing. In Matthew Chapter 18 the gospel writer chronicles Jesus healing hundreds. He tells us that this was done so that it might be fulfilled what was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet in Isaiah 53:4, "Surely he hath born our grief and carried our sorrows." It is the belief that there is a causal connection between sin and sickness. It is interesting that very often before Jesus healed people He first told them their sins were forgiven. In Mark four we see this when Jesus healed the paralytic.

I noticed that when reading the article - it would be a long stretch to say he was prefacing his remarks about Pentecostal thought by beginning with the 4 principles of Evangelical Protestantism. It reads more like he was relating how this experience with a fatally-injured youth being healed in such a miraculous manner (in a manner observed in Pentecostal churches) fit within these principles, and what he learned from it.

Blessings,

[BobRyan]

I thought that it was two (2) words, repeated again--said twice.

Someone on this thread or one like it - claimed it was just one word - (and apparently repeated once).

So that makes it a 7 syllable word - whatever it is.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The jibberish gift of tongues is not from God at all. And is not what is discussed in 1Cor 14. The proof of that fact is that in 1Cor 14 Paul says that the real gift of tongues is a "sign to UNBELIEVERS".

I am clear as to what 1 Cor 14 is about. So is it clear to you that Black was talking in jibberish? You don't know what it is.

I have heard quite a bit of what passes for the Charismatic gift of tongues in this modern age. I can affirm that point.

Is da-sha-da-la-la-la-bosa the charismatic "word" that it appears to be or is it just native word from the Australian outback - or perhaps some other well known 7 syllable english word? If so - then it would certainly be unfair for someone to accuse Pastor Barry Black of pentecostal-like speaking in tongues.

Given Pastor Black's own comments on the Pentecostal idea of tongues - he is not doing or saying anything inconsistent with a true blue - da-sha-da-la-la-la-bosa style prayer event.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Someone on this thread or one like it - claimed it was just one word - (and apparently repeated once).

So that makes it a 7 syllable word - whatever it is.

The fact that one (or more) claim that Black spoke one word, twice, or that I think he said two words, twice, does not make it either one word or two words.

The reality of whether it was one or two words is dependent upon what he actually said, not what we think he said.

My point was: We differ on whether or not it was one or two words. We probably differ as to what he actually said--regardless of whether it was one or two words.

Perhaps, this should cause us to introduce some caution as to the meaning that we atrribute to what he said.

[BobRyan]

I already left it open for those who want to think of da-sha-da-la-la-la-bosa as not being the charismatic "word" that it appears to be -- but rather it is just some native word from the Australian outback - or perhaps some other well known 7 syllable english word?

If you have a way in which it is a well known 3 and 4 syllable word munged together in a muttered fashion, (and then the phrase repeated for effect) - I am glad to hear how that is happening. Because I did watch the video and heard what was said. And I have been to more than a few dozen charismatic meetings where the same Australian native tongue appears to have been popular.

in Christ,

Bob

[Textus Receptus]

Anyone with a logical understanding of the magnifinces of God will know that speaking in tongues is rubbish. Charismatics claim that speaking in tongues is a "language" that only God can understand and it contains words that articulate the true condition of a person. But honestly, THIS IS GOD who created the universe! I am quite sure that God can examine the heart and character of an individual without resorting to such antics. No words, no matter how magical are needed. :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This morning I was watching a program on TV and heard the very same type of "utterances" ... but the sound was at the normal volume. While the video appeared completely normal, there was a problem with the audio, such that the conversation words were "choppy," omitting some of the syllables and diphthongs of the words. Elder Black could very well have been saying, "Hallelujah" several times, with the audio having either been manipulated or just having a temporary mechanical glitch at that moment. It would be very interesting to be able to hear the proffered video at an increased volume at the area in question and have a speech pathologist evaluate the "words" in phonetical symbols.

But, personally, I don't think it's much of an issue..

[JoeMo]

Quote:

But, personally, I don't think it's much of an issue..

I agree with you, Pam. While speaking in tongues or having a prayer language is not "proof" of baptism by the Holy Spirit; IMO neither is it proof of demonic activity. It is kind of a non-issue for me.

I would never condemn anyone for having a prayer language (although I seriously question the need to use one in a public forum without an "interpreter"). If people are uncomfortable with speaking in tongues,they shouldn't seek the gift (or curse, as some might call it), or go to a church where it hasn't manifested itself.

[BobRyan]

The not-so-subtle detail that some miss - is that that is not the gift of tongues, it is not condoned in scripture, and it is condemned in the Spirit-authorized messages given to Ellen White (as even the video points out).