Conceal carry in SDA meetings?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

actually, people *have* died as a result of wearing a seatbelt....not many, but it has happened.

everyone has their own opinion on bearing arms...

Quote:

Besides, who says God wants us to do everything we can to preserve our lives? Where does the Bible say that? The Bible says the opposite.

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." ~John 12:25

sorry, but it sounds like the proffered argument is that if a person is glad to be alive, then shame on him...

the text, I believe, is comparing decadence to a Godly life, with the result being eternal death vs eternal life.. It has nothing to do with bearing arms or putting up a fight of self-defense.

[pindoc]

Anyone who would leave a weapon in a vehicle shouldn't be entitled to C/H or C/C. Anyone with that much smarts knows the gun won't be secure in an unattended vehicle.

I truly loathe the senseless pretense that guns are safe in cars when groceries and clothes aren't. Remember the admonitions not to leave shopping goods in your cars at the mall? And you want unattended guns in vehicles on church grounds? That's a perfect invite for a church service massacre.

I bet your pants there have been tons of folks in SDA church events with C/H. Duh. This is North America. Peeps with C/H - carry/hold - aren't going to petition for permission to carry from a church admin. That would sort of defeat the purpose of C/H. Such folks, you won't know they're armed unless someone walks into the church with a gun. Then that person will be there to defend your butt & your kids & your parents.

Seriously, peeps with C/H permits are on guard every time a cop walks by them. God forbid the cop should know they're armed... The cop will have no means of just eyeing them and knowing that person is carrying legally. It's a scary thing to have folks know they're armed. Some time, ask someone who carries.

[M. T. Cross]

Have you read "The Desire of Ages?"

Do you know why the men fell back when they came to arrest Jesus? If anyone had the right to defend Himself, it was Him. He is God, but He allowed Himself to be taken captive. He suffered abuse and torture. He died for us, quietly...

[Ellen]

"At End of the Spear" was gripping. But although they mentioned praying, they never made an effort to introduce the natives to Jesus. I am wondering what church produced that.

It reminded me of the accusation that missionaries try to Americanize rather than bring the gospel message to them in their own culture.

[joeb]

Have you read "The Desire of Ages?"

Do you know why the men fell back when they came to arrest Jesus? If anyone had the right to defend Himself, it was Him. He is God, but He allowed Himself to be taken captive. He suffered abuse and torture. He died for us, quietly...

And not only Him, but His apostles, too. Peter was a fighting man. If it was right to defend our own lives with violence or weapons, Peter probably would have been slashing away at his enemies...

Have you read the book of Martyrs? Did you know that many people converted because of how God's spirit moved on many of the martyrs (not all of them, sadly), to go to their deaths without using violence to defend themselves? Even executioners were executed because they would not kill those beautiful people.

Can we show God's love by using violence, weapons, etc, to defend our rights, our lives? What about that of others?

I believe it shows a lack of faith in God's ability and willingness to protect us. I believe it shows an unwillingness to let God lead us wherever He wants us to be, especially if it's to our death. By going to death the way Christ would, even one soul, possibly more, may be convicted of God's love, His sacrifice...

And what if we took a life? If you kill someone who is trying to kill you or others, you are sending them to eternal death as well...They'd die with that sin on their hearts...

Have any of you seen "The end of the Spear?" It may help you understand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-gg27Ltf98

Have you read the OT, Patriarchs and Prophets, and Prophets and Kings? This same Jesus authorized the Israelite judges, David, and other kings of Israel, as well as Moses(the meekest man upon the earth) and Abraham(the friend of God) to conduct warfare to protect their relatives and fellow citizens from danger, as well as to punish evildoers.

You can never obtain a balanced point of view by taking only one portion of the Bible and basing your views upon only the part you agree with.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Jesus did not defend himself because it was his role to die. It was part of the purpose of his life.He was not a martyr at all, he was simply fulfilling his destiny.

While it was Jesus objective to die in the place of those who would have lost out on eternity with Him, had He not come. I don't recall anyplace in the Word that says He planned that men execute Him in any particular way. The method He allowed was still orchestrated by the enemy of souls and those humans that willingly lent themselves to his orders.

OTOH, for those who would later repent, this information below brings great relief, I'm sure.

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”"John 6:51 NKJV

God forgives! Jesus saves!

[Smurf]

Not to be confrontational, but for a group of “believers” that I have always heard say that they find it funny that people will obey 9 of the Commandments and fight the 4th one about the Sabbath can dismiss the 6th.....the one that says “Thou shall not murder”. And please don’t go “well, murder is different than self defense”. That is a run-around that does NOT hold water at all.

EVERY person that followed Jesus in the Bible should have killed every time they were beat up, tossed in jail, etc...right? Why not? Because of the 6th Commandment. What did Jesus, the one folks claim to be Lord and follow, do when someone used self-defense on His behalf?

What about the claim of “Loving” while at the same time taking a life that has not had a chance to Accept or Reject Christ? How can a mere Follower of Jesus become judge & jury?

They can not...there is NO PLACE in the New Testament that sanctifies such a thing.

Those who feel it is OK to take a life for any reason needs to go back & re-read the book they claim to follow, just like we did.....obedience is HARD when it smacks us in the face.....

Nuff Said.....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

...just like we did...

I'd like to know who the "we" is in the "re-read the book they claim to follow, just like we did" statement.

[Smurf]

The "we" is my family and I.

Why is this so important?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The "we" is my family and I.

Why is this so important?

Because it was a vague reference. Sometimes we get persons on C/A representing other faiths or groups, and it's helpful to know from which perspective someone is writing...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Not to be confrontational, but for a group of “believers” that I have always heard say that they find it funny that people will obey 9 of the Commandments and fight the 4th one about the Sabbath can dismiss the 6th.....the one that says “Thou shall not murder”. And please don’t go “well, murder is different than self defense”. That is a run-around that does NOT hold water at all.

"self defense" may not "hold water" with you, but I find it sad that a person would not be willing to protect one's family or friends in the face of danger (i.e., a rapist, kidnapper, a rampaging lunatic, etc) with whatever means are needed.

To sit back and calmly watch a loved one being tortured, with the idea that it's God's Will, is akin to the JW's refusing to use current medical knowledge in the treatment of life-threatening situations, and watching the family member die.

Thankfully, it is not *my* nor *your* business to judge what someone else feels obliged to do in keeping the commandments of God.

[Smurf]

“"self defense" may not "hold water" with you, but I find it sad that a person would not be willing to protect one's family or friends in the face of danger (i.e., a rapist, kidnapper, a rampaging lunatic, etc) with whatever means are needed.”

I never said that a person should not defend themselves, the spirit of this thread is “kill them before they kill you”, which according to God is wrong. Not one person has said anything about DISABLING the attacker...take out a knee, crack a rib with a bat, etc.....if I have missed where someone said anything along these line’s please let me know.

“To sit back and calmly watch a loved one being tortured, with the idea that it's God's Will...”

Where did I type anything like this? Please don’t try to make what I typed imply something it plainly does not.

“Thankfully, it is not *my* nor *your* business to judge what someone else feels obliged to do in keeping the commandments of God.”

John 7:24 - Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (KJV)

Acts 17:11 - These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)

Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill. (KJV)

Yes it is our place, and responsibility, to Judge in certain areas.....even the people of Berea checked up on Paul & Silas, “judging” there words against the scriptures. You can tell a true believer by his fruits, according to God’s Word......beside’s “judging” someone’s fruits,how are we to tell?

I would not want to hang with a person that has no problem taking a life before trying to disable the attacker...especially one that claims Jesus as Lord. God’s Word is plain on this subject, and it is spelled out in the 10 Commandments.....well, at least is the older translations.

We will just have to agree to disagree I guess....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

thank you for sharing your opinion...

[M. T. Cross]

“"self defense" may not "hold water" with you, but I find it sad that a person would not be willing to protect one's family or friends in the face of danger (i.e., a rapist, kidnapper, a rampaging lunatic, etc) with whatever means are needed.”

I never said that a person should not defend themselves, the spirit of this thread is “kill them before they kill you”, which according to God is wrong. Not one person has said anything about DISABLING the attacker...take out a knee, crack a rib with a bat, etc.....if I have missed where someone said anything along these line’s please let me know.

“To sit back and calmly watch a loved one being tortured, with the idea that it's God's Will...”

Where did I type anything like this? Please don’t try to make what I typed imply something it plainly does not.

“Thankfully, it is not *my* nor *your* business to judge what someone else feels obliged to do in keeping the commandments of God.”

John 7:24 - Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (KJV)

Acts 17:11 - These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)

Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill. (KJV)

Yes it is our place, and responsibility, to Judge in certain areas.....even the people of Berea checked up on Paul & Silas, “judging” there words against the scriptures. You can tell a true believer by his fruits, according to God’s Word......beside’s “judging” someone’s fruits,how are we to tell?

I would not want to hang with a person that has no problem taking a life before trying to disable the attacker...especially one that claims Jesus as Lord. God’s Word is plain on this subject, and it is spelled out in the 10 Commandments.....well, at least is the older translations.

We will just have to agree to disagree I guess....

I'll thank you not to be thinking about my fruits at all let alone judge them there fella!

I half agree with you though that one should try to disable an attacker etc first.

But really people are talking about extreme life or death decisions here, and then it escalated to some nonsense about so called martyrs.

The whole judging thing is really......... questionable?

You can judge me based on your interpretation of the bible.

Pam (rudywoofs) could judge me on her interpretation of the bible.

I bet you would have two extremely different verdicts.

I could judge both of you based on my beliefs. Depending on what I was reading that day it could go a number of ways.

The point is when it comes to spiritual matters humans are way to fickle and foolish to be the judges of others.

[Sojourner]

Hi Smurf,

You raise several very good points, I guess one point that I would raise is that if you do conceal carry and shoot at someone in self defense, its not like in the movies and most people often miss entirely, yet the danger is there that a single bullet can kill if it hits the right part of the body.

The martial art of Aikido (Steven Segal) is taught in such a way that it is meant to be used to take down an attacker without hurting them at all. That is the goal anyway. Yes in a number of circumstances it can be done and that includes weapon disarms - knife gun etc. Again its many years of practice though and relies on you keeping calm in the face of violence which is not easy.

On reflection I feel that Aikido is a good example of how a Christian can defend themselves yet also be a good example of non violence at the same time.

[Smurf]

“I'll thank you not to be thinking about my fruits at all let alone judge them there fella!”

We all have friends, and how did they BECOME our friends? Because we judged them by their fruits to see if “their apples are the same as ours”...do they show compassion, like me? Do they like the same teams as me? It goes on and on. We ALL judge on a certain level, and we ALL look at others Fruits to see if they are the same as ours.

Should we not do this with even more scrutiny when it comes to doing the Will of God?

“The whole judging thing is really......... questionable?”

I think not.......

“You can judge me based on your interpretation of the bible.

Pam (rudywoofs) could judge me on her interpretation of the bible.

I bet you would have two extremely different verdicts.

I could judge both of you based on my beliefs. Depending on what I was reading that day it could go a number of ways.

The point is when it comes to spiritual matters humans are way to fickle and foolish to be the judges of others.”

I agree 100%...IF we are judging IN OUR OWN POWER! But The Lord has left us with a Book, full of His Words, that shows us how to Judge, Discern, Live, Worship......it is the Believers Guide book, and it out weighs any human view, even if you, I, or the President like it or not.

We WILL be Judged by that Book, so I think we should use it as our Guide in all. It is not the Lords fault that so many ignore His Word, myself included, to this day....but as soon as His Word shows me where I was wrong I endeavor to follow His way with the Spirits help. Sure I stumble at times, sure folks have distanced themselves from me for doing such a legalistic thing...but if God’s word plainly states “Do This” or “Don’t do that” then what choice does a believer have?

The 10 Commandments are very plain, and if we ignore them after claiming that they are binding, then we do this to our own peril IMHO.

And your Very Welcome rudywoofs, I also appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

It is hard to convey emotions thru the net using only words...so I would like to say here & now that I really do not mean to be confrontational, insulting, rude, etc...it is hard when a person is passionate about something to type their feelings...

[joeb]

Smurf,

You are judging Abraham, Moses, the prophetess Deborah, King David, and many more OT people as not having faith in God, and as not following God's leading. God instructed many OT people to take up the sword in defense of family, friends, neighbors, fellow Hebrews/Jews, etc.... The God that did that is the same God who died on the cross as it was through the pre-incarnate Jesus that the Father communicated with humanity, so to say that Jesus said all usage of weapons against those threatening life and limb is wrong, is well, wrong-headed. It was the Son of God who said, I change not, in the OT. He's the One who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And, He is the one who resorted to warfare in heaven to evict Lucifer when he would not leave peaceably.

Last but not least, Jesus did not say Peter sinned in carrying or using his sword. Did He tell Peter to repent of doing it? Nope. Did He tell Peter he needed to ask for forgiveness for doing so? Nope. It's something Peter most likely did every day of his life up to that point in his life for there is no evidence at all that the disciples knew that this night was going to bring about the death of Jesus before the last supper. That means that whatever Peter took with him that night he had to have carried there. Why? Because Peter's home was in Galillee, not in Jerusalem, and because when they left that supper they went directly to the Mount of Olives. So, Jesus had many previous opportunities to tell Peter he was sinning by carrying a sword and that he shouldn't carry one, yet here's Peter still carrying a sword.

Jesus simply told Peter to put away the sword because those who carried one and used one would probably die by one. That is not a wholesale condemnation of weapons, or of carrying a weapon, or of defending someone who needed defending(which Jesus did not). It's simply pointing out that if you get into fights with weapons you're most likely going to die when you run into someone who's better with that weapon than you are.

There is no way to read Jesus' words to Peter as saying Peter was sinning by carrying, or using, a weapon in defense of himself or others. Jesus, in fact, told Peter right afterwards that if He needed defending, and that's what His Father thought was best at that moment, that the Father would send 10,000 angels to defend His Son. And don't we have very clear Biblical evidence that God's angels carried swords and killed people who were out to hurt God's people?

Like I said, your position is simply wrong. There's too much Biblical evidence against it. Common sense is against it too when you actually think about the situation and consider where Peter got the sword he was carrying.

[Stan]

Remember this..

This is a HOT issue..

HOWEVER it is NOT a Pass/Fail issue for heaven.

[Smurf]

joeb,

1. When did I say it was a sin? The Word of God says it, not I.

2. How am I judging all these folks? That is a stretch by anyone standards.

2. The OT was a different world from the NT, things were different before Jesus came. There IS a difference between the 2 books, and it is not just time or authors....

3. If you are a SDA, then you believe the 10 Commandments are binding..... thus you can not get around the 6th, just like the 4th. This is my point, nothing else.

Again, please don’t try to imply things that were not meant, it weakens the response.

Also, the OT folks were commanded / instructed / however you want to say it to wipe out nations, kill kids& livestock, etc.....can anyone here today honestly say God has told them to do this same thing? Can anyone show in the NT that it is fine to plan to take a life under ANY circumstances?

No....

As I said numerous times already, if you claim to hold the 10 Commandments as binding, then you have to take ALL of them, or none, or we are Hypocrites just like those that ignore the 4th.

Again, an IMHO that is not popular at all...

And stan, I fully agree, and bow out at this point, since things are getting twisted out of context.

[M. T. Cross]

“I'll thank you not to be thinking about my fruits at all let alone judge them there fella!”

We all have friends, and how did they BECOME our friends? Because we judged them by their fruits to see if “their apples are the same as ours”...do they show compassion, like me? Do they like the same teams as me? It goes on and on. We ALL judge on a certain level, and we ALL look at others Fruits to see if they are the same as ours.

[Smurf]

Thank You for the level headed response MT, and yes, I missed the humor......sorry about that.

[LifeHiscost]

Remember this..

This is a HOT issue..

HOWEVER it is NOT a Pass/Fail issue for heaven.

This below reveals that Truth, as voiced by Jesus.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."Luke 23:34 KJV

God/Jesus saves!

[joeb]

joeb,

1. When did I say it was a sin? The Word of God says it, not I.

2. How am I judging all these folks? That is a stretch by anyone standards.

2. The OT was a different world from the NT, things were different before Jesus came. There IS a difference between the 2 books, and it is not just time or authors....

3. If you are a SDA, then you believe the 10 Commandments are binding..... thus you can not get around the 6th, just like the 4th. This is my point, nothing else.

Again, please don’t try to imply things that were not meant, it weakens the response.

Also, the OT folks were commanded / instructed / however you want to say it to wipe out nations, kill kids& livestock, etc.....can anyone here today honestly say God has told them to do this same thing? Can anyone show in the NT that it is fine to plan to take a life under ANY circumstances?

No....

As I said numerous times already, if you claim to hold the 10 Commandments as binding, then you have to take ALL of them, or none, or we are Hypocrites just like those that ignore the 4th.

Again, an IMHO that is not popular at all...

And stan, I fully agree, and bow out at this point, since things are getting twisted out of context.

[Smurf]

“When you accuse someone of disobeying God you're saying they are sinning. No way around it.”

I never said this, thus no reason to “get around” anything. Straw-man 1

“You are also saying that your conscience is the only one that counts.”

I never said nor implied such a thing. Straw-man 2.

“So, you are saying that God told people to sin in the OT. “

I never said nor implied such a thing. Straw-man 3.

Three strikes, and you’re out.....

“There's just too much Biblical evidence that God does not consider protecting others a sin to be dogmatic in opposing that position.”

I have gave my reason from the Word why I feel any killing is wrong, and it is pretty plain what it says. Can you please give the same from the Word that says it is OK to kill in self defense without resorting to twisting scripture like you have my posts?

The subject is Self Defense, not wiping out countries, eradicating sin, etc....Self Defense.

If I have mis-interpeted someone’s post and it is pointed out to me, then I will apologize for all to see. If it can be solidly proven by the Word of God that I am wrong, I will freely admit it...I have had to change my views often when the Truth is pointed out to me. It is called growth, and it hurts, but it is needed for all of us, would you not agree?

But you will not see me trying to place any words, or implications, or “hidden meanings” into anyone's replay like you have.

Please try to type a response that sticks to what is said, and not an interpretation of what you think a person has said.

Thank You.

[joeb]

Smurf,

I haven't twisted anything you've said. The implications of what you've said is very clear.

Self-defense is not the only reason for carrying a weapon. That you're trying claim it is says a lot. Maybe you need to re-read the title of this thread. That title has to do with concealed-carry laws, not self-defense.