Smurf Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 From the 1st post by the OP of the thread.... "Are deacons or security personel ever requested or required to conceal carry for the security purposes of the general congregation?" This is a self-defense question, based on if it is required or requested from the pulpit to have protection in God's House ....maybe you should re-read the topic... "I haven't twisted anything you've said. The implications of what you've said is very clear. " What I said was very clear, you are the one reading "implications" into it. I have no "hidden meanings" behind my words, and neither does the Word of God.... We will just have to agree to dis-agree, especially since you have not shown from the Word of God, as requested, where it says that taking a life in self defense is OK. So when you can show Biblical support for taking of a life IN SELF DEFENSE I will re-join the conversation. If this can be proven from God's Word, then I will admit I am wrong...this has happened often but that is how you grow..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Here is a person who will make a good disciple for Jesus. Maybe he already is and that's why he wasn't afraid. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/man...-163213854.html "Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.’" Isaiah 41:10 NKJV God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I believe that Christ was trying to teach us something important when he allowed himself to be arrested, tried, and killed, all without resistance. In this life it is important to conduct ourselves as those who follow Christ's teachings. Because of our varying and sometimes dubious backgrounds, we may struggle in some areas. This life, though, is but a short blip in the timeline. We must use our time here to prepare ourselves for the great test that lies ahead, after the resurrection. It is then that we must make our final choice between serving YHVH or Satan. It is then that those who do receive YHVH's mark will become targets of persecution, torture, and execution. Because YHVH's followers know that he will bring them back to life, there is nothing permanent about laying their lives down to demonstrate that they will serve the LORD, and him only, even to the death. It is terrible that men with guns are so willing to murder unsuspecting, defenseless people in all walks of life, but those who trust in YHVH know that death in this life is nothing, only a chance to sleep before awakening at the resurrection. According to the scriptures, what YHVH expects of those he chooses to join his kingdom is for them to be loyal to the death, obedient, docile, and a pure and unselfish heart. There is no place for us as fighters in the Kingdom of YHVH. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 We must use our time here to prepare ourselves for the great test that lies ahead, after the resurrection.It is then that we must make our final choice between serving YHVH or Satan. I would like see in the Bible where this came from..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Quote: We must use our time here to prepare ourselves for the great test that lies ahead, after the resurrection.It is then that we must make our final choice between serving YHVH or Satan. Quote: I would like see in the Bible where this came from..... Seems like this below is more likely the Truth. Why would Jesus be bringing rewards with Him when the choices had not yet been made? "And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. " Revelation 22:10-12 NKJV God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billyjobob Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 It says in the bible to lay down your life for Christ, not to fire back! WOW I am just blown away by the fear mongering you people have bought into this church. Again I'm just blown away. Chill my friend. You may GET blown away and you may also be saved by someone like me that will be in church armed and ready. It's interesting that all the gunophobes are tickled pink when the armed police/authorities show up, often too late to repair the damage that has been done, but seem to resist having a brother in the seats amongst them that could possibly neutralize the situation. I choose to live until God lets me die. Carrying gives me options. If God sees fit for me to go down then so be it. I'm not going to lay down in the presence of a deranged gunman. I'll return fire if it's safe to do so. I propose a church where carrying a handgun by well trained members is mandatory. Shotguns for the deacons. Naomi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAN Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 'Shotguns for the deacons' ?? If you want deacons to carry then please have someone who can shoot straight without taking out a whole pew while protecting the sheep!... unless you like the headline: "Deacons kill 20 protecting $30 offering plate from lone gunman" GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Smurf said... So when you can show Biblical support for taking of a life IN SELF DEFENSE I will re-join the conversation. Well, here it is: Exodus 22:2 - "If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account." It is implicit in the text that not only is the homeowner here is to be not held guilty for slaying the thief in defense of family/house, but explicitly for today's commonly belittled thought of protecting property. Going on to verse three states that the event must be reported quickly - aka, within hours of the event - the phrase, "but if the sun has risen on him" indicates too much time has passed - the intruder's family could make counterclaims against the homeowner as to what really happened. Taken together, an alternate meaning would be that a thief breaking in at night could be slain in defense of family and property, but if in the day, the thief must merely be apprehended and brought immediately before the judges. Such an interpretation lends itself to the fact that at night one cannot know who it is who is committing the crime, and none can be expected to come to assist. During the day, recognition is possible, and people are awake and aware enough to assist in the event of a crime. Either way, taking a life in defense of self and property is not declared a sin, and is certainly allowed. Backing up a bit into the previous chapter, we find Exodus 21:13, which says, "“He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." - which on the surface is a rebuttal in your favor, Smurf. But let's look at what the next two verses say: “But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee. If, however, a man acts presumptuously toward his neighbor, so as to kill him craftily, you are to take him even from My altar, that he may die." It may seen easily from this passage that if someone was minding their own business, became involved in a fight, and in the course of defending themselves they killed their attacker, God appoints a place for the defender to flee until court is set to determine justice. "Did not lie in wait for him" expressedly means the defender not select out another person for attacking - they did not initiate the aggression. That person was minding their own business. "Acts presumptuously toward his neighbor" expressedly means one initiates the aggression with forethought - they planned on attacking. Note here that a successful defense of self if attacked by another is not held as sin - even if the life of the attacker is taken (see also the passages concerning the cities of refuge). However, the reverse is not true - if the attacker succeeds in killing his prey and claims self defense, yet is proven to have attacked with malice, he is to be taken even if he pleads directly from the altar of God. Again, taking a life in self-defense is Biblically not a sin. Two verses, in Biblical support of personal defense, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. To take the case further - slaying in defense of the disadvantaged/weak is likewise not considered a sin. This is the case when in 2 Kings 19 Sennacherib, king of Assyria, came against a very weak Hezekiah. Sennacherib's army was destroyed in one night - all 180,000 of them, leaving only the king alive. He returned humiliated to his city, whereupon he was promptly assassinated while in worship by his own sons. At first blush, this might again seem to agree with your posts to date; however, why would God declare it is just for an angel to slay in defense of of person/property, but not for man? Hence, the principle of defense of self/property is not contrary to the 6th commandment, which reads in truth, "Thou shalt not commit murder", rather than "Thou shalt not kill". Any good concordance testifies to this point. The commandment is against the hatred against others in heart which builds, until it is manifest as the actual premeditated taking of another's life with malice. That is the precise definition Christ Himself gives it in the Sermon of the Mount. It is not an absolute command about ending another's life, as is taken by many well-intentioned Christians today. There are multiple words in Hebrew used to describe the action of taking a person's life, but only the word for premeditated murder is used in the commandment. As was noted earlier, Christ's own followers were not admonished about carrying swords for defense the night of His betrayal. Luke 22:36 sees Jesus clearly telling that the time was approaching when His followers were actually go and buy swords - for defense. In verse 38, His followers point out there were 2 swords at hand - would they need bringing? In saying "It is enough.", if Jesus clearly intended this to mean the swords were unneeded, He would have said so. However, the weapons weren't for His defense (as so very well put, Christ was defended by angels more than willing to come to His defense), but most likely He intentioned them to be brought for His followers on a night where much injustice was going to prevail. Peter was not told he had sinned in defending his Lord's person - Christ merely stated it was not the time for such an action. Larger things were in motion. Indeed, in allowing Divinity to flash through humanity that night, stunning the soldiers and sending them to the ground, Jesus conveyed both a message and a warning - He was the very person they sought, and that He could defend Himself if it was necessary. A stronger flash of Divinity would have slain them all on the spot. The Bible does support the ending of life in defense against crime and war, and in punishment for crime, as just principles in harmony with His kingdom. Blessings, Naomi 1 Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 "Two verses, in Biblical support of personal defense, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear." And both are from the OT, the Mosaic Law, not the NT law..there is a difference... As for Luke 22.36, you really have to read "defense" into that passage for it to mean that....really...read these and see if using this ONE passage from the NT to defend killing another is really the correct way to use the passage.. 2 Corinthians 10:3 John 18:36 Matthew 26:52 "The Bible does support the ending of life in defense against crime and war, and in punishment for crime, as just principles in harmony with His kingdom." Yes, in the OT, but NOT the NT. Sorry, it was a great write up, but just a re-wording of the same old argument...one that does not hold water. "for those with eyes to see and ears to hear." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Does the SDA permit people to conceal carry in church meetings? Are deacons or security personel ever requested or required to conceal carry for the security purposes of the general congregation? Perhaps it should be asked if too many SDA's conceal that they are Christians and carry too much of the world into church with them? What would Jesus do? Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliAgins Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Silly me! I never supposed I'd ever read about SDA's discussing carry guns. My brother, Charles was enlisted into the Army during the 2nd WW. That meant that he was trained to save lives and not take them. This at one time was a strong Adventist belief and culture. Desmond Doss along with hundreds..perhaps thousands of young men were strong in their belief that they were in God's care and keeping. If they died while serving God as best they could, they knew and understood that for them their next living moment would be at the Resurrection with an angel gently bringing them from the grave. My brother was one of these men that actually gave their lives. He was killed on the island of Luzan about a month before the war actually ended. I wonder what he would say about the question of concealed guns in church. How did it happen that the gun culture has come into this church? GayatfootofCross and phkrause 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 4, 2015 Administrators Share Posted October 4, 2015 Yes, it is a disturbing trend to see political views trump religious values. We are seeing that in other areas as well. It is as if politics is becoming a religion. Kind of an oxymoronic joining of faith and force, religion and power. CoAspen, phkrause and GayatfootofCross 3 Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoarrge Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 It's one thing to be willing to lay down your own life for Christ. It's something else to sacrifice other people, friends, or family-- which is, from a certain point of view, what one is doing when they refuse to oppose evil. If I think that these other people's lives are not mine to place in harm's way, perhaps that should be accompanied by a sense of responsibility to make sure the harm is unable to get past me. Quote To be an agent of creation is to serve the Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneRanger Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 It is a moot point in Canada since it is against the law to carry, and very difficult to own. (Handguns, that is. Rifles and shotguns are much easier, but you can't "carry" them, either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Yes, it is a disturbing trend to see political views trump religious values. We are seeing that in other areas as well. It is as if politics is becoming a religion. Kind of an oxymoronic joining of faith and force, religion and power. I wonder if that is a one of the facets of Modern Christianity turning from a Lamb to a Lion that many SDAs dont think about applying to bible prophesy. I know SDA Christians who are very pro gun and all about protecting family and property ( I live in the mountain woods ) . It used to be not like that. Or maybe I was ill informed when i was younger...or naive about Generations of SDA thinking.. I don't know. I do know Desmond Doss* was a hero for rescuing others without using a gun (conscientious objector). I thought that was our collective Belief System. The GOP Platform is all about that stuff.Flying in the Face Of JESUS CHRIST/Gospel example of non violence and self sacrificial LOVE and blessing and loving and serving our Enemies of our Church.Morals, and Nation.. . and Now we have a SDA on the national Scene promoting this ANTICHRISTian theology? I'm not sure! we will see.... It would be Horrific if Dr. Ben Carson (an SDA) promotes this religion and power thing for the Common Good and National Security. That is not what God is all about. I see what you are saying Tom Wetmore..I'm just taking it further into Prophesy. I think this generation will see Jesus Finally come! # i have a feeling my thoughts will go over many heads due to my outlandish questioning combined by poor wordsmithing. maybe i will try again another time another place * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Why were the COI armed? Why did the nation of Israel have a standing army? Why did God use the ancient judges to deliver the Israelites from their persecuters by the force of arms? I see no Biblical condemnation of Israel for having an army. And, David, their most famous warrior, was called "a man after God's own heart". If God really sees the defending of home and loved ones by force as sinful why did He call David a man after His own heart? Why does not the Bible condemn David as being outside the will of God in defending the nation of Israel? Do you really believe the God of the NT and the OT are that different? Did God Himself say He "changes not"? Why did God use force to kick the devil out of heaven if the use of force is sinful? To conflate the issue of self-defense and the idea of spiritual warfare is a logical fallacy. Sojourner and Naomi 2 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 17 minutes ago, joeb said: Why were the COI armed? Why did the nation of Israel have a standing army? Why did God use the ancient judges to deliver the Israelites from their persecuters by the force of arms? I see no Biblical condemnation of Israel for having an army. And, David, their most famous warrior, was called "a man after God's own heart". If God really sees the defending of home and loved ones by force as sinful why did He call David a man after His own heart? Why does not the Bible condemn David as being outside the will of God in defending the nation of Israel? Do you really believe the God of the NT and the OT are that different? Did God Himself say He "changes not"? Why did God use force to kick the devil out of heaven if the use of force is sinful? To conflate the issue of self-defense and the idea of spiritual warfare is a logical fallacy. Yes a man after Gods own heart but still could not sanction David to build the His Dwelling Place Sanctuary cause of all the blood shed and a being man of war... hmmmm. God does not change. Our perception of HIm does. Jesus shows us GOD perfectly- not David. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 On 6/1/2014, 1:17:58, Smurf said: From the 1st post by the OP of the thread.... "Are deacons or security personel ever requested or required to conceal carry for the security purposes of the general congregation?" This is a self-defense question, based on if it is required or requested from the pulpit to have protection in God's House ....maybe you should re-read the topic... "I haven't twisted anything you've said. The implications of what you've said is very clear. " What I said was very clear, you are the one reading "implications" into it. I have no "hidden meanings" behind my words, and neither does the Word of God.... We will just have to agree to dis-agree, especially since you have not shown from the Word of God, as requested, where it says that taking a life in self defense is OK. So when you can show Biblical support for taking of a life IN SELF DEFENSE I will re-join the conversation. If this can be proven from God's Word, then I will admit I am wrong...this has happened often but that is how you grow..... Biblical support for taking life in self defense? It comes right out of the Law: Exodus 22:2 “If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed." NKJV Not only does this relate to defense of one's person and family from the thief - it also relates to the defense of property from the thief. God does not regard the defense against criminal activity resulting in the death of the criminal, to be murder. It does NOT say the homeowner must leave the premises and to escape confrontation or the necessity of self defense. Active defense of life and property is presumed to be an expected, natural reaction to the criminal activity of the thief, in the tenor of this verse. This same tone is taken in Exodus 21:12-14. The words "God delivered into his hand" in verse 13 is the language of a defender prevailing. It is the same phraseology as used by David just before he slew Goliath: the death is a justified self-defense against an aggressor. Numbers 35:16-18; 20-21 lays out what God regards as murder: having enmity in the heart for the person and premeditating their death in that hatred. Accidental death and death resulting from the pushing away of someone without enmity (aka, a self -defense action - verses 20, 21) are NOT regarded as breaches of the 6th Commandment against murder. I read earlier in this thread about Peter carrying a sword (Luke 22:36-38). Just a bit earlier that evening, Jesus instructed His disciples the time was soon to come when they would need to go and sell their cloaks to buy a sword if they had no sword (verse 36). When Peter pointed out there were two swords already present (verse 38)...THAT precise time was the time to tell Peter NOT to take up his sword if Christ was merely speaking allegorically. But Christ wasn't speaking so...and He knew what Peter was going to be doing to Malchus in a few hours. YET - Christ didn't tell Peter NOT to carry in defense of life. He said instead that "those would be enough". Christ did not command that self-defense was sin...else why would Christ declare that legions unfallen angels could be instantly made available to defend Him? Christ dispensed with the expected right of self-defense, because the immediate context of God's plan of salvation required it. That He could - and would - if necessary is evidenced when His Divinity flashed through, momentarily stunning His would-be captors. Being noble, peaceable, and blameless does not preclude righteous indignation and justified defense against evil and criminality. Smurf, you wanted the Biblical basis and support for taking a life in self-defense...there it is. Black and white. Yes, this goes against the pacifist grain of the usual Adventist culture; yet, Christ Himself told Moses these things 1500 years before He walked this earth as one of us. His testimony is not going to contradict the principles already laid down in the Old Testament. Blessings, Naomi and Sojourner 2 Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I know I double posted my response. However, proof was asked for under the condition of desiring understanding and correction; when given, the plain text of the Bible was explained away with very human reasoning. It is rather plainly stated in Exodus 21:13-16 and 22:2, and there is no real way to get around it to mean anything else. I guess the very idea of this is so foreign to the pacifist mindset that it must be rejected out of hand. Later, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Nice try, but if you are claiming that the Mosaic Law is still valid, then I guess it is fine to stone an adulteress? That is ALSO in black & white....along with a lot of other OT Laws that you, more than likely, would never even THINK of claiming that was still valid because they are in "black & white". The arguments are old, and even tho you made a good faith effort, you either have to take the ENTIRE OT Law as LAW, or NOT....you CAN NOT pick & choose to make a point in a weak argument...sorry....this also goes for the NT, we do not have the power to pick parts we like, ignore others we don't, and then claim to be a Follower of Christ. The world might do it, but Christians do not have that luxury. phkrause and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2015 Members Share Posted November 15, 2015 On 11/14/2015, 4:07:44, Guest said: Nice try, but if you are claiming that the Mosaic Law is still valid, then I guess it is fine to stone an adulteress? That is ALSO in black & white....along with a lot of other OT Laws that you, more than likely, would never even THINK of claiming that was still valid because they are in "black & white". The arguments are old, and even tho you made a good faith effort, you either have to take the ENTIRE OT Law as LAW, or NOT....you CAN NOT pick & choose to make a point in a weak argument...sorry....this also goes for the NT, we do not have the power to pick parts we like, ignore others we don't, and then claim to be a Follower of Christ. The world might do it, but Christians do not have that luxury. Exactly Guest and on top of that I guess there are 600+ more than that we should be keeping!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoarrge Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I don't know where Christ said anything to the effect of "If a wicked man comes to kill you, suffer him, and leave your family and neighbors to fend for themselves." Quote To be an agent of creation is to serve the Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Oh, so we are dividing up the OT into the parts we like to carry over into the NT and those we don't? The Old Testament is now a Golden Corral, so that we may pick and choose what WE think is applicable 3000 years later? You do realize the health message Adventists follow is "Mosaic Law", right? Both the vegetarian AND the unclean/clean meat diets? So from where do you get your support of them, PK? You also do realize the medical aspects of quarantining and washing after handling dead and diseased tissue also comes from "Mosaic Law", right? So, Guest and PK - would you allow a doctor to operate upon you, or treat you, who doesn't practice the principles contained within these "Mosaic Laws"? Yea, I thought so. What about murder? Adultry? Stealing? Bearing false witness? Coveting? How about "Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy?" Ah...those are part of the Law as well. I guess the Cross threw those out as well, right? Yes, indeed, weak arguments have been made - but I am not making them. In your efforts to make the Bible reflect your political beliefs, you willingly pick and choose those you don't like to be obsolete and rendered unnecessary by the testimony of Chris in life and sacrifice. And PK, I thought you would have known better than to take that argument with me. I guess times have changed. You all would do well to understand that Paul wrote in the New Testament that faith does NOT negate the Law, but establishes it. Faith establishes each and every principle found contained written in the Law of the Old Testament. The argument about "stoning the adultress" is a dead giveaway to a dead theology. Luke 24 - Jesus began with the Law in explaining to His disciples EVERYTHING concerning Himself. He then went to the prophets, the Psalms. ALL of the early church evangelists used these major three portions of the Old Testament - the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms - to preach the Gospel all over the Roman Empire within a couple of decades. And you're telling me the you all don't like within Old Testament Books of the Law are antiquated and out with the Cross? Nice try guys, but I'm not buying it. Whether you like it or not, they are every bit as much a part of Christ as love, charity, mercy, and forgiveness. You cannot divorce one from the other without creating a false Gospel, and thus worship according to a false testimony of Christ. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yet another Jim Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 To start with we first must define what self-defense is: 1. Dictionary.com: n. “the act of defending one’s person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant.” 2. Law.com: n. “the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger.” … “The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force.” It is not a lack of faith or a sin to carry a weapon for self-defense or use it in self-defense. Yes, I have faith that God will provide and keep me safe and if it is my time I will see him in Heaven. Just as when I'm sick I go to the doctor, or when a small fire breaks out I call 911 and use my fire extinguisher, or when I get in the car I put on my seatbelt. I use the tools that are available to me. Most people need to study the principles set forth in the Bible. It is written and the Bible is very clear that life is VERY precious and we are REQUIRED to do what we can to protect it. Some quick examples: Abraham with his more than 318 trained servants recovering Lot... David and his men leaving Ziklag to recover their families... the thief breaking into your house and dies at your hands his blood is not on your hands... David as a boy carried the equivalent of a 44 magnum... Nehemiah armed by family all the people... the store of Queen Ester and the people defending themselves... You find these principles in both the old and new testaments of the Bible. Not to mention Peter wasn't scolded for using the sword the Jesus himself told them they should buy if they didn't have one just hour earlier. He did told "permit even this" because he had to be taken and to die to save us. I have spent MANY hours in study and research on this subject and have presented what I have found to several pastors, elders, and others challenging them to find where I'm wrong. To date I have been given only suggestions regarding changing certain words... and have been told they can't find anything in in the Bible contrary to what I presented. Keep in mind God, his laws and principles never change. Nothing in the Bible contradict itself and if we think it does we are reading something wrong. The use of a firearm should be the LAST option we choose to use but it is still a tool that we have been given the same as swords, spears, bows,... Warning, be careful and not be guilty of the sin of presumption, which according to the Bible is a "great sin". If you choose not to use a tool available to you because "God will take care", you are guilty of the sin of presumption. A firearm is nothing more than a tool, just as a fire extinguisher or a seat belt that I have available to me. When used properly they all SAVE lives. Evil will exist until Christ returns, we have to do what we can to share Gods' Love and desire to save ALL. But the Bible is clear we are to defend those around us and ourselves for it is written you are "worse than an infidel" if you do not. Yes, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends". We all should be willing and ready to die to keep others safe. This subject is way to large to cover in a post like this but I challenge you to open Gods word and study it. I know my eyes were opened and some things I was taught as a child are NOT Biblical and were uncomfortable (not politically correct). Our goal is to be like Jesus and follow ALL of the commandments of GOD. Remember it is written that there is NO TRUTH in those who teach contrary to the word of GOD. This includes those in and out of leadership positions. It is not a lack of faith or a sin to carry a weapon for self defense. Yes, I have faith that God will provide and keep me safe (may require action on my part) and if it is my time I will see him in Heaven. Sojourner and Geoarrge 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Yet another Jim said: To start with we first must define what self-defense is: 1. Dictionary.com: n. “the act of defending one’s person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant.” 2. Law.com: n. “the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger.” … “The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force.” It is not a lack of faith or a sin to carry a weapon for self-defense or use it in self-defense. Yes, I have faith that God will provide and keep me safe and if it is my time I will see him in Heaven. Just as when I'm sick I go to the doctor, or when a small fire breaks out I call 911 and use my fire extinguisher, or when I get in the car I put on my seatbelt. I use the tools that are available to me. Most people need to study the principles set forth in the Bible. It is written and the Bible is very clear that life is VERY precious and we are REQUIRED to do what we can to protect it. Some quick examples: Abraham with his more than 318 trained servants recovering Lot... David and his men leaving Ziklag to recover their families... the thief breaking into your house and dies at your hands his blood is not on your hands... David as a boy carried the equivalent of a 44 magnum... Nehemiah armed by family all the people... the store of Queen Ester and the people defending themselves... You find these principles in both the old and new testaments of the Bible. Not to mention Peter wasn't scolded for using the sword the Jesus himself told them they should buy if they didn't have one just hour earlier. He did told "permit even this" because he had to be taken and to die to save us. I have spent MANY hours in study and research on this subject and have presented what I have found to several pastors, elders, and others challenging them to find where I'm wrong. To date I have been given only suggestions regarding changing certain words... and have been told they can't find anything in in the Bible contrary to what I presented. Keep in mind God, his laws and principles never change. Nothing in the Bible contradict itself and if we think it does we are reading something wrong. The use of a firearm should be the LAST option we choose to use but it is still a tool that we have been given the same as swords, spears, bows,... Warning, be careful and not be guilty of the sin of presumption, which according to the Bible is a "great sin". If you choose not to use a tool available to you because "God will take care", you are guilty of the sin of presumption. A firearm is nothing more than a tool, just as a fire extinguisher or a seat belt that I have available to me. When used properly they all SAVE lives. Evil will exist until Christ returns, we have to do what we can to share Gods' Love and desire to save ALL. But the Bible is clear we are to defend those around us and ourselves for it is written you are "worse than an infidel" if you do not. Yes, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends". We all should be willing and ready to die to keep others safe. This subject is way to large to cover in a post like this but I challenge you to open Gods word and study it. I know my eyes were opened and some things I was taught as a child are NOT Biblical and were uncomfortable (not politically correct). Our goal is to be like Jesus and follow ALL of the commandments of GOD. Remember it is written that there is NO TRUTH in those who teach contrary to the word of GOD. This includes those in and out of leadership positions. It is not a lack of faith or a sin to carry a weapon for self defense. Yes, I have faith that God will provide and keep me safe (may require action on my part) and if it is my time I will see him in Heaven. A good post yetanotherjim, I once heard a sermon preached entitled "Trust in G-d but keep your car doors locked anyway". Which to me is common sense, yet raises the question of should people that take the pacifist line own locks on their homes or cars and use them if they believe that G-d is looking after them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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