Sojourner Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Hello All, As a member of the Salvation Army a number of years ago I took up Soldiership and signed a pledge not to gamble, to use tobacco, Alcohol or other enslaving drugs. As I am aware only the Salvation Army and the Seventh Day Adventist Church require this of their full members. Yet my decision to take this pledge was never based on any theological reason. I don't need to believe that Jesus never drank alcoholic wine for me also to choose not to drink it. I find that many Christians that oppose the consumption of alcohol seem to need to get on a theological bent to prove that the wine Jesus made was not "Strong Drink" in order to support their position. Alcohol was used as a natural preservative for grape juice. The sheer climate of the areas around Jerusalem requires food to be kosher in order to be kept without spoiling. Grapes were likely available for six weeks of the year, the wine was made and preserved with the alcoholic process accordingly. Jesus parable about new wine in an old wineskin is an example of the alcoholic process of fermentation as the wine skin - a sheep's gut can only stretch a single time and if its used twice the fermentation process causes it to split. What I would say however is that if we were to compare this type of wine with modern wine we would find that todays wines contain a far greater content of alcohol. Its suggested that many historical wines were broken down with two thirds water. Its for this reason that I suspect Gluttony is associated with Drunkenness because of the sheer amount you had to consume in those days in order to become drunk. In todays time, one only has to look at what alcohol is doing to people in our society to see why its not a good thing and why it should be eschewed by Christians. In Australia the governments drug and alcohol services council have 93% of their time taken up with alcohol abuse as opposed to all the other drugs combined. Our road toll of innocent people being killed by drunk drivers is absolutely appalling. Women's Shelters are full of bruised women on any one night after being assaulted by drunken husbands or de facto partners. The thing is the more I look at alcohol the more I cant see anything that is good about it. My great uncle who was an elder in the Methodist Church who also was non drinker told me that "I don't drink simply because I have seen it ruin so many lives". 30 years on from hearing that, I could not more agree and I do wish other Christians could see it without having to make it a theological reason to do something about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Why do I not drink alcohol? Because it is a bigger monster than I can conquer. Yes, that labels me an alcoholic. I kept deceiving myself in my youth that I could stop whenever I wanted....until I found out I couldn't. I went to my knees and gave it to the Lord. He gave me the victory by taking the desire and "need" for alcohol away - overnight. I have not desired a drop of the intoxicant since. That was 28 years ago. A year later, the Lord put me in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. That's why I don't drink alcohol. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Alcohol is a drug - and the Bible does not condone drug abuse. That is why the Bible speaks out against drinking alcoholic wine. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 Alcohol is a drug - and the Bible does not condone drug abuse. That is why the Bible speaks out against drinking alcoholic wine. in Christ, Bob Yes, alcohol is a drug. Yes the Bible does not condone "abuse" of drugs. Does the Seventh Day Adventist Church follow the teaching of the Church of Scientology that female members are not permitted to be given pain relieving drugs during childbirth? - I am guessing not, there is a vast difference between using a drug and abusing a drug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted April 25, 2013 Administrators Share Posted April 25, 2013 I must agree and admire you for your logical reasoning concerning the issue of alcohol. Why would one wish to use anything if it has the potential to destroy your health, family, finances and perhaps personal freedom. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arwen Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Hello All, As a member of the Salvation Army a number of years ago I took up Soldiership and signed a pledge not to gamble, to use tobacco, Alcohol or other enslaving drugs. As I am aware only the Salvation Army and the Seventh Day Adventist Church require this of their full members. A lot of Christian denominations do not allow alcohol. I just googled this: What religions do not allow alcohol consumption? Islam and most Protestant Christians (including Mormons, Pentecostals, Methodists, Rastafarians and some Baptists) prohibit alcohol consumption. Buddhism also discourages alcohol consumption but for different reasons. The more traditional Christian religions (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican), few Protestants (some Baptists, Jehovah's Witness and reformed Christians), Judaism and Confucian philosophy all allow consumption without debauchery (In other words, it's okay as long as you don't get drunk). Hinduism does not condone nor prohibit consumption but does warn against drunkenness. Traditional Christians (non-Protestants named above) actually require consumption of wine during certain religious events and many Jews are actually encouraged to get drunk during certain religious celebrations. Quote Live for God . . . Love people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 Islam and most Protestant Christians (including Mormons, Pentecostals, Methodists, Rastafarians and some Baptists) prohibit alcohol consumption. Buddhism also discourages alcohol consumption but for different reasons. In terms of Christian denominations prohibiting alcohol, I do not agree that Methodists and Pentecostals prohibit alcohol consumption for members. Methodists used to but this was reversed in the 1980's. I know a number of people involved with the AOG and other Pentecostal groups that drink alcohol. To my knowledge, only the Salvation Army and Seventh Day Adventist Churches require members to sign a pledge that they will not participate in alcohol consumption. I know that Mormons don't drink alcohol nor Caffeine, but I don't consider them to be a mainstream Christian church as they do not believe in the Trinity and accept the Book of Mormon as an extension of the New Testament and are unable to sign the apostles creed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arwen Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 In terms of Christian denominations prohibiting alcohol, I do not agree that Methodists and Pentecostals prohibit alcohol consumption for members. Methodists used to but this was reversed in the 1980's. I know a number of people involved with the AOG and other Pentecostal groups that drink alcohol. I'm sorry to say that I don't think individual behavior is a good indicator of what a church may hold to be true. For example: I know of a few Adventists (that have been Adventist all their life and others that have been Adventists for 20-50 years) that consume alcohol, take drugs (like cocaine) and smoke tobacco – but they go to church every week. Some are trying to give up but some glorify in it. In addition, I think that some people (in all denominations) say they are Christian but do not follow through with practice, or say they are Christian because they went to church when a kid. Like all of us, people sin in different ways. In some denominations, there may also be some regional differences. Eg The United Methodist Church (US) Alcohol Historically, the Methodist Church has supported the temperance movement. John Wesley warned against the dangers of drinking in his famous sermon, "The Use of Money," and in his letter to an alcoholic. Nevertheless, Wesley regularly consumed beer at meal time and in 1789 wrote a letter to the editor of the Bristol Gazette questioning the prevailing practice of adding hops to beer. At one time, Methodist ministers had to take a pledge not to drink and encouraged their congregations to do the same. Today the United Methodist Church states that it "affirms our long-standing support of abstinence from alcohol as a faithful witness to God's liberating and redeeming love for persons." In fact, the United Methodist Church uses unfermented grape juice in the sacrament of Holy Communion, thus "expressing pastoral concern for recovering alcoholics, enabling the participation of children and youth, and supporting the church's witness of abstinence." Moreover, in 2011 and 2012, The United Methodist Church's General Board of Church and Society called on all United Methodists to abstain from alcohol for Lent. Gambling The United Methodist Church opposes gambling, believing that it is a sin which feeds on human greed and which invites people to place their trust in possessions, rather than in God, whom Christians should "love ... with all your heart."[Mark 12:29-30] It quotes the Apostle Paul who states: But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains. — 1 Tim. 6:9-10a The United Methodist Church therefore holds that: • Gambling is a menace to society, deadly to the best interests of moral, social, economic, and spiritual life, and destructive of good government. As an act of faith and concern, Christians should abstain from gambling and should strive to minister to those victimized by the practice. • Where gambling has become addictive, the Church will encourage such individuals to receive therapeutic assistance so that the individual's energies may be redirected into positive and constructive ends. • The Church should promote standards and personal lifestyles that would make unnecessary and undesirable the resort to commercial gambling—including public lotteries—as a recreation, as an escape, or as a means of producing public revenue or funds for support of charities or government. Quote Live for God . . . Love people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted April 25, 2013 Moderators Share Posted April 25, 2013 Hello All, As a member of the Salvation Army a number of years ago I took up Soldiership and signed a pledge not to gamble, to use tobacco, Alcohol or other enslaving drugs. As I am aware only the Salvation Army and the Seventh Day Adventist Church require this of their full members. Yet my decision to take this pledge was never based on any theological reason. I don't need to believe that Jesus never drank alcoholic wine for me also to choose not to drink it. I find that many Christians that oppose the consumption of alcohol seem to need to get on a theological bent to prove that the wine Jesus made was not "Strong Drink" in order to support their position. Alcohol was used as a natural preservative for grape juice. The sheer climate of the areas around Jerusalem requires food to be kosher in order to be kept without spoiling. Grapes were likely available for six weeks of the year, the wine was made and preserved with the alcoholic process accordingly. Jesus parable about new wine in an old wineskin is an example of the alcoholic process of fermentation as the wine skin - a sheep's gut can only stretch a single time and if its used twice the fermentation process causes it to split. What I would say however is that if we were to compare this type of wine with modern wine we would find that todays wines contain a far greater content of alcohol. Its suggested that many historical wines were broken down with two thirds water. Its for this reason that I suspect Gluttony is associated with Drunkenness because of the sheer amount you had to consume in those days in order to become drunk. In todays time, one only has to look at what alcohol is doing to people in our society to see why its not a good thing and why it should be eschewed by Christians. In Australia the governments drug and alcohol services council have 93% of their time taken up with alcohol abuse as opposed to all the other drugs combined. Our road toll of innocent people being killed by drunk drivers is absolutely appalling. Women's Shelters are full of bruised women on any one night after being assaulted by drunken husbands or de facto partners. The thing is the more I look at alcohol the more I cant see anything that is good about it. My great uncle who was an elder in the Methodist Church who also was non drinker told me that "I don't drink simply because I have seen it ruin so many lives". 30 years on from hearing that, I could not more agree and I do wish other Christians could see it without having to make it a theological reason to do something about it. Excellent post! I want to write some more but I'm too tired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted April 25, 2013 Members Share Posted April 25, 2013 Hello All, As a member of the Salvation Army a number of years ago I took up Soldiership and signed a pledge not to gamble, to use tobacco, Alcohol or other enslaving drugs. As I am aware only the Salvation Army and the Seventh Day Adventist Church require this of their full members. Its interesting that you would use the word enslaving, I agree 100%. Originally Posted By: Sojourner Yet my decision to take this pledge was never based on any theological reason. I don't need to believe that Jesus never drank alcoholic wine for me also to choose not to drink it. Originally Posted By: Sojourner I find that many Christians that oppose the consumption of alcohol seem to need to get on a theological bent to prove that the wine Jesus made was not "Strong Drink" in order to support their position. I agree Originally Posted By: Sojourner Alcohol was used as a natural preservative for grape juice. The sheer climate of the areas around Jerusalem requires food to be kosher in order to be kept without spoiling. Grapes were likely available for six weeks of the year, the wine was made and preserved with the alcoholic process accordingly. Jesus parable about new wine in an old wineskin is an example of the alcoholic process of fermentation as the wine skin - a sheep's gut can only stretch a single time and if its used twice the fermentation process causes it to split. Not only that, but when Jesus made the wine he called it the best wine, was because it was without alcohol. As it gets older it becomes alcoholic. If anyone has taken a bottle of grape juice and sat it outside of the refrig for a while and than takes a drink, it taste like an alcoholic beverage. Even when its in the refrig itself for to long it gets alcoholic tasting. Originally Posted By: Sojourner What I would say however is that if we were to compare this type of wine with modern wine we would find that todays wines contain a far greater content of alcohol. Its suggested that many historical wines were broken down with two thirds water. Its for this reason that I suspect Gluttony is associated with Drunkenness because of the sheer amount you had to consume in those days in order to become drunk. If you read the book by Samuele B, he has a chapter on the wine in the Bible. Originally Posted By: Sojourner In todays time, one only has to look at what alcohol is doing to people in our society to see why its not a good thing and why it should be eschewed by Christians. In Australia the governments drug and alcohol services council have 93% of their time taken up with alcohol abuse as opposed to all the other drugs combined. Our road toll of innocent people being killed by drunk drivers is absolutely appalling. Women's Shelters are full of bruised women on any one night after being assaulted by drunken husbands or de facto partners. Exactly Originally Posted By: Sojourner The thing is the more I look at alcohol the more I cant see anything that is good about it. My great uncle who was an elder in the Methodist Church who also was non drinker told me that "I don't drink simply because I have seen it ruin so many lives". 30 years on from hearing that, I could not more agree and I do wish other Christians could see it without having to make it a theological reason to do something about it. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Why do I not drink alcohol? Because it is a bigger monster than I can conquer. Yes, that labels me an alcoholic. I kept deceiving myself in my youth that I could stop whenever I wanted....until I found out I couldn't. I went to my knees and gave it to the Lord. He gave me the victory by taking the desire and "need" for alcohol away - overnight. I have not desired a drop of the intoxicant since. That was 28 years ago. A year later, the Lord put me in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. That's why I don't drink alcohol. Blessings, That's a great story. I was born and raised in the SDA church, and on my last drunk, I almost drank myself to death, literally. It lasted about two years. Why? It was the progression of alcoholism, is all I can say. If God hadn't helped me when He did, I would have finished off the job sooner rather than later. I don't have anywhere near 28 years, and I still may finish it off later, but not today. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I tremble when I think of what might of been had I not gone to my knees that night. I do not return to that, as I have far too much to lose should I do so. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Amen Deac. Praise the Lord for His "grace to help in time of need." g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 First I would like to commend everyone here that has had a problem with booze and been able to free themselves of it. You have my utmost respect. I have always been able to have one drink and stop. Alcohol has never been an issue to me, mostly because I have not really enjoyed being drunk since I was about 22 years old. Drugs however....... I love drugs. Apparently I love them pretty much to death as a couple of overdoses made clear. Have stayed clear of them for 23 years this June or July. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted April 26, 2013 Moderators Share Posted April 26, 2013 Sorry Pkrause: when studying about how to do proper research two of Dr. Samuel B's books were used. One, from Sabbath to Sunday, shown as an example on how to do proper and trustworthy research, and his book on Alcohol as an example on improper and shabby research with things like circular reasoning, reading assumptions and full of examples of what books on research warn against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted April 26, 2013 Members Share Posted April 26, 2013 Drugs however....... I love drugs. Apparently I love them pretty much to death as a couple of overdoses made clear. Have stayed clear of them for 23 years this June or July. Amen EC, Ted and RLH and Praise the Lord to each one of you. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Why do I not drink alcohol? Because it is a bigger monster than I can conquer. Yes, that labels me an alcoholic. I kept deceiving myself in my youth that I could stop whenever I wanted....until I found out I couldn't. I went to my knees and gave it to the Lord. He gave me the victory by taking the desire and "need" for alcohol away - overnight. I have not desired a drop of the intoxicant since. That was 28 years ago. A year later, the Lord put me in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. That's why I don't drink alcohol. Blessings, Congrats, Ted. God works miracles when we surrender the sin in our lives. As Garfield says, with respect to your comment about addiction, I resemble that remark. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 First I would like to commend everyone here that has had a problem with booze and been able to free themselves of it. You have my utmost respect. I have always been able to have one drink and stop. Alcohol has never been an issue to me, mostly because I have not really enjoyed being drunk since I was about 22 years old. Drugs however....... I love drugs. Apparently I love them pretty much to death as a couple of overdoses made clear. Have stayed clear of them for 23 years this June or July. Good for you EC. Keep on the straight path. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Quote: Drugs however....... I love drugs. Apparently I love them pretty much to death as a couple of overdoses made clear. Have stayed clear of them for 23 years this June or July. You and me both MT. Even though I'm clean of all other drugs, I still miss weed every once and a while - it was my favorite. Almost gave into the temptation for the Denver 4/20 celebration last week (recreational weed is legal here in Colorado now); but my God talked me out of it. I was a good boy. I quit getting drunk over 30 years ago. Hurts too much the next day. IMO alcohol is the most dangerous drug of all. Even when I was doing a lot of drugs, if I was drinking along with them, I got drunk. Don't know the stats for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that alcohol kills more people in the world than all other drugs combined. Congratulations to you on 23 years of freedom from drugs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 You and me both MT. Even though I'm clean of all other drugs, I still miss weed every once and a while - it was my favorite. Almost gave into the temptation for the Denver 4/20 celebration last week (recreational weed is legal here in Colorado now); but my God talked me out of it. I was a good boy. I quit getting drunk over 30 years ago. Hurts too much the next day. IMO alcohol is the most dangerous drug of all. Even when I was doing a lot of drugs, if I was drinking along with them, I got drunk. Don't know the stats for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that alcohol kills more people in the world than all other drugs combined. Congratulations to you on 23 years of freedom from drugs! Anyone who says weed isn't addictive doesn't know what they're talking about. When God first gave me the victory over it I could walk down the sidewalk in town and when I smelled it on someone passing me I'd get all the physical symptoms of getting high even though the desire to use was gone. It's capable of inflicting a very powerful psychological addiction upon its users. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I agree joeb; but it is a strictly psychological addiction in my mind. Because weed is so prevelent in Colorado, I'm frequently exposed to it. The only defense I have is to run away from it as fast as I can, because I don't trust myself to just turn it down if it is offered. I guess it's equivalent to an alcoholic hanging around a bar - not a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I agree joeb; but it is a strictly psychological addiction in my mind. Because weed is so prevelent in Colorado, I'm frequently exposed to it. The only defense I have is to run away from it as fast as I can, because I don't trust myself to just turn it down if it is offered. I guess it's equivalent to an alcoholic hanging around a bar - not a good idea. Yeah, it's strictly psychological, but a psychological addiction is no less powerful than a physical one for the mind runs everything. You can't get away from your mind. Only God can kill that connection. Fortunately for me He's done that. I no longer have the desire for any kind high coming from alcohol or drugs and I've gone through some really tough times in last 20 years or so. The only high I like anymore is the one I get from my heart burning within me when God comes near. That one I can't get enough of. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 May the Lord continue to bless each of you with victory over all substances. I agree joeb - the psychological is the tougher one, as the mind always pleads, "Just ONCE more, please? One more time won't hurt, will it? It's that "one more time" that keeps one hooked - regardless of what sin one is dealing with. Blessings to all, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallmark Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 It alters your state of mind. The apostles Peter and Paul admonished us to live soberly. Another thing, it slows the loss of bodyfat loss. A person's body will process the alcohol before it processes the workout. In other words, it blows your workout. I work hard enough in the gym. I'm not going to throw it down the drain on some mind altering substance. Although it was not my drug of choice back in the day, a sober life is wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 It alters your state of mind. The apostles Peter and Paul admonished us to live soberly. Another thing, it slows the loss of bodyfat loss. A person's body will process the alcohol before it processes the workout. In other words, it blows your workout. I work hard enough in the gym. I'm not going to throw it down the drain on some mind altering substance. Although it was not my drug of choice back in the day, a sober life is wonderful. Thanks for the common-sense testimony! Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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