Gordian Knot

[Tom Wetmore]

Very informative presentation on the history of women in ministry in the Adventist Church - http://session.adventistfaith.org/uploaded_assets/424939

[debbym]

There are individuals who are very adamant against women in positions of spiritual responsibility in church organization.

they are here in CA, in my church, and in my community in various denominations.

then there are individuals who are not distressed about it in any way.

Both groups seem very devoted and humble and faithful.

i wonder if it is not a perspective that is primitive that sees men as physically more powerful and able to see things through, and women are just weaker, and more vulnerable and just not to be taken seriously. i wonder if this subconscious assumption exists. I believe it is less then spiritual.

I wonder if it is related to the male perspective women are to be in submission, which contributes to justified female battering, since if they do not keep themselves in place they require being put in place.

i don't think women can be effective spiritual leaders to men who do not have respect for them, or who believe that the women are just trying to be men if they have any spiritual pastoral responsibility. And they definitely do not want women to be a conference president.

i was blessed by knowing a women conference Bible worker, who had huge numbers of bible studies over the years. she studied with men and women and had baptisms from both groups for decades. she was effective and Godly and powerful in prayer and in the word of God. She could have preached a powerful message in the word at any time, and everyone was blessed by her example. There was no one in her church who doubted the Holy Spirit was attending this woman's ministry.

This will not leave my mind.

[olger]

Male Chauvinism and Women's Ordination

http://advindicate.com/?p=3133

[Johann]

Male Chauvinism and Women's Ordination

http://advindicate.com/?p=3133

Thank you, olger, for sharing this link. I knew very little about this ADVindicate group.

La Sierra had been a concern of mine. Now I see that this ADV could be a greater concern. Shooting at each other from the ditch on each side of the road. Satan must be rejoicing.

Where are we going?

[olger]

You are welcome Sir.

G

[Johann]

Which side is doing the shooting and spreading the evil reports against their Brethren?

[CoAspen]

You noticed!

[Johann]

A serious issue

[Johann]

When I read the ADV material I was reminded of what Ellen White writes that it was difficult for her pointing out some of the faults of her fellow believers, but God had placed this spcial burden on her, and not on anyone else.She warned others not to think that because she was doing it that others could do it too.

So even if all that ADV is true and right it is not right of them to thus find faults with their fellow believers. That is the work of Satan and not the children of God.

[CoAspen]

When people start proclaiming they are speaking for God as His messengers, are look at their message very carefully. When it is basically 'finger pointing', one can only shake their head wondering why such foolishness and pride.

[Tom Wetmore]

Reminds me of this EGW quote:

"God will charge those who unwisely expose the mistakes of their brethren with sin of far greater magnitude than He will charge the one who makes a misstep. Criticism and condemnation of the brethren are counted as criticism and condemnation of Christ."--Letter 48, 1894. {3SM 345}

But I think we are drifting off topic…

Tom Wetmore said:

Very informative presentation on the history of women in ministry in the Adventist Church - http://session.adventistfaith.org/uploaded_assets/424939

How about comments on this paper.

[Tom Wetmore]

As Ellen White said, "We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and his teaching in our past history."

[Johann]

Shall we forget?

[Tom Wetmore]

On this issue, the overwhelming evidence is that we did forget.

And there seems a baffling tendency, almost a stubborn wifulness of many to resist remembering. It is almost an attitude of denial and disbelief that leads some to reinterpret or rewrite history.

[Tom Wetmore]

After noting the current TOSC effort just beginning at the time of her presentation, Kendra concludes with this question -

"Is the knot tightening or loosening?"

Will this issue that has been with the Adventist Church from its very beginning be resolved finally by this current effort?

[pindoc]

Deb: i don't think women can be effective spiritual leaders to men who do not have respect for them, or who believe that the women are just trying to be men if they have any spiritual pastoral responsibility. And they definitely do not want women to be a conference president.

Also, men cannot be close to effective spiritual leaders of women for whom the men have no regard. Unfortunately that is a very common state in the church. Anytime the men pretend don't want the women to be ordained because it's better for the female gender not to be, that it's a kindness not to let them be, then that condescension and derision completely nullifies any effective spiritual leadership of the men.

When I was growing up, only ordained ministers worth want to baptize which meant when there were women ministers that of course they would never be allowed to baptize. Then all of a sudden the church decide to change what they called women ministers. They also decided to get away from only letting ordained ministers baptized. This was one of their ways around leading women ministers be ordained. It's conniving and despicable behavior. Personally I'm sure that it's just one more way of paying women glass could get the same work.

Remember the huge lawsuit against Pacific Press? That's what it took to get PP to pay women the same as men.

[Gregory Matthews]

I am a bit confused as to what Pindoc actually said in the above post.  I may not understand what was intended to be said.

 

In any case, the SDA Church has come a long way since the Pacific Press case in regard to paying women the same wages for the same work.  I will suggest that  if everything else is equal, Commissioned and Ordained pastors  (women and men) are paid the same wage.

 

You may be able to come up with what you believe to be examples that contradict what I have just said.  Please, be certain that everything else is equal.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

(I think the reason pindoc's post is hard to follow is due to "autocorrecting" when the post was made)

[Tom Wetmore]

On January 17, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Tom Wetmore said:

As Ellen White said, "We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and his teaching in our past history."

As some here have recently questioned why we should consider what the founders of our Church thought about women in ministry,  in keeping with he above I urge reading the paper linked in the OP - http://session.adventistfaith.org/uploaded_assets/424939