Another Union Affirms Ordination of Women

[Woody]

[debbym]

Quote:

In Summary:

Categorizing males and females into social roles creates binaries in which individuals are at one end of a linear spectrum and must identify themselves as man or woman. This is seen as “oppression” by feminism. Indeed the founding motive of feminism was to redefine a rigid linear gender spectrum in favor of an amalgamation of roles at first and ultimately to redefine an individual’s self-perception and behavior. This has opened the door to gender fluidity – ultimately regarding all gender structures as plastic and all principles as liquid. The great thrust today (2013) is a rapidly growing postmodern agenda that sees gender binaries as divisive and claims that they polarize society in unhealthy ways.

no, do not think this is so, at all, sorry... not so

i do not believe anyone is wanting to dissolve gender differences, gay or not.

amalgamation of roles is also on these lines an idea i suspect is based in not knowing.

you can find anything on the internet.

no one is pure male or pure female. one scientist identified 37 degrees of feminine and masculine. we all have our mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters, and aunts and uncles in us, we are made stronger in some ways, and gentler in other ways by our brothers, fathers, and husbands, and made gentler in some ways, and stronger in other ways by our mothers, sisters and grandmothers We express and repress and form our individuality. all the people we have ever met model humanity to us, influence us and give us a pool of experience from which we construct questions and learning about our gender and our orientation. God's Spirit speaks to every person who comes into the world, and we cannot measure the impact of that because we have never been without it.

Our hearts are the place where God wants to come and dwell, and God can come and dwell in any person who is willing whatever their gender or sexual identity or condition. God only requires a willing heart.

but thank you so much for taking the time and thought to reference your ideas, and show your position.

[olger]

You're welcome Deb. And I don't mind if you disagree.

This just in the Washington Times - yesterday.

"A 6-year-old transgender boy in Colorado just won a legal right to use the girls’ bathroom in school.

The Colorado Civil Rights Division ruled on Sunday that Coy Mathis — who was born a boy but self-identifies as a girl — was wrongly prevented by school officials from using the girls’ restroom, Fox News reported.

The Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, based in New York, represented the child’s parents, Kathryn and Jeremy Mathis, in the case against Eagleside Elementary School, Fox News said.

The child had been allowed to use the girls’ bathroom until December 2012. That’s when the principal informed the parents that the child would have to use either a boy’s bathroom or a gender-neutral one, Reuters reported. The family removed their child from school and filed a complaint for discrimination.

The mother said, in a statement reported by Fox News, they’re “thrilled that Coy can return to school and put this behind her.”

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013.../#ixzz2XDu7L7Kg

Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

This is just one illustration (albeit a good one) of how rapidly and how far the "gender fluidity" thinking has penetrated into our national psyche. And the court came down on the side of deviance. We haven't seen it all yet, friends.

Resist and reach out,

`G

[Naomi]

Olger ... if we have not done so, it is time to put our children into denomination schools; and PRAY!!

If a person wants to or feels they are "gender natural" that's okay with me. I just don't care to share the female bathroom with them! Nor, IMHO should school girls be forced into that situation

[olger]

no, do not think this is so, at all, sorry... not so

i do not believe anyone is wanting to dissolve gender differences, gay or not.

So you don't believe "anyone" is trying to do this. ok.

Again, my article is not yet written, there is more research to complete. However, the claim that no one is trying to dissolve gender differences is woefully naive. Just a few examples for starters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/world/...ed=all&_r=0

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/04/25/178788893/yo-said-what

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Gende...-204197471.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/magazi...mp;ref=magazine

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/gender-fluidity

rejoice always,

`G

[olger]

Thanks Naomi. I agree. I have been saying since February, that that the time may be right to pull all Christian students and teachers out of the government school system. Let them collapse. And let Pharoah send his kids to our schools, instead of us sending our children to Pharoah's schools.

I don't share these things to depress us, or to be overly alarmist, but to observe what is now fully apparent.

Blessings,

`G

[Naomi]

AMEN & AMEN

[Hair]

OGLER - I though you did an excellent job. However, you might as well give up. They are going to go with the world. That's what they want and they will not change. That is what "feels" good to them in their own mind. They ask for support of your views, and when provided, they'll laugh it to scorn and attempt to make a mockery of it. This is typical modern age behavior.

WO will have a snowball effect that we refuse to see. I guess because we have more Biblical understanding now than we have had in the past. It is just a strange coincidence that we gained this WO understanding at the same time all the other denominations did. The other churches started with female ordination and then moved on to homosexuals, but we will not.

Stop worrying, everything is fine, all is well, we are financially stable, we are not in need of anything, our eyes are clear, we know right from wrong, and the unity that WO will bring will make things even more comfortable.

[Hair]

That transgender article is unbelievable. I mean that actually sounds like a joke. Sounds like something I'd try to pull when I was a kid, "Hey Mrs. So&So, I need to use the girls restroom today because I'm a girl trapped in a boy's body." LOL Then I would be quickly and sternly corrected and had my nose placed in the corner or something. LOL

I kept a 4.0 throughout my entire school which dropped slightly through college, but I was always a class clown... I can't help it, its just my nature

I just want to say that I love all you guys and would not want to upset any of you and don't mean to sound hateful when discussing our different views. Sometimes we can get caught-up in our passion and loose sight of how great God is and of his love for us. He's awesome! I know we all want to do what is best to spread the gospel. That's our commission :)

[Naomi]

I just want to say that I love all you guys and would not want to upset any of you and don't mean to sound hateful when discussing our different views. Sometimes we can get caught-up in our passion and loose sight of how great God is and of his love for us. He's awesome! I know we all want to do what is best to spread the gospel. That's our commission

[olger]

That transgender article is unbelievable. I mean that actually sounds like a joke. Sounds like something I'd try to pull when I was a kid, "Hey Mrs. So&So, I need to use the girls restroom today because I'm a girl trapped in a boy's body." LOL Then I would be quickly and sternly corrected and had my nose placed in the corner or something. LOL

I kept a 4.0 throughout my entire school which dropped slightly through college, but I was always a class clown... I can't help it, its just my nature

I just want to say that I love all you guys and would not want to upset any of you and don't mean to sound hateful when discussing our different views. Sometimes we can get caught-up in our passion and loose sight of how great God is and of his love for us. He's awesome! I know we all want to do what is best to spread the gospel. That's our commission

A hearty amen brother (or should I say "hen?").

Serious - very good post.

`G

[CoAspen]

Quote:

And the court came down on the side of deviance.

Such statements continue to explain the reason for 'fear'. I live in CO and am more knowledgeable about this story than your are. You did not report the outcome of the decision but only your biased rhetoric. The child was allowed back in school, they had been expelled, the bathroom to be used was a gender neutral with enclosed stalls. You continue to 'label' everything you disagree with in the extremes. .

I have seen no credentials posted by you which gives you the knowledge to make diagnostic decisions of just what the underlying issues were in this situation. From all indications, based on scientific lit, this condition is very real and does not make your case for this being a deviant child or seeking family.

[Hair]

All We have is the article and it states that the PARENTS REMOVED the child from the school because the principal said he had to use the BOYS OR GENDER NEUTRAL restroom.

From the article it seems that the parents refused to send their child to school because they demanded that he should use the girl's restroom.

If the principal said he could use the gender-neutral one and that was acceptable, then why would they remove him from school. To me, the article reads as if the boy is now at school using the girl's restroom. OGLER did not write the article, we can't blame that on him.

Regardless, if the boy thinks he should be using the girl's restroom there's a problem.

Now, to the real questions: If this little feller grows-up and goes to seminary, do we ordain him as a man or woman? If we choose not to ordain females then would he accept ordination as a man? What if he got ordained as a man, but then announced that he was really a woman? Would that be fair to other real women? If we ordain men and women by that time is he okay being ordained as both? Does transgender automatically mean homosexual?... I do not know. Lets just ordain any and everybody!

[Hair]

The Title even says, "Transgender boy, 6, wins right to use girls’ bathroom"

[Tom Wetmore]

Nothing has more staying power than misinformation on the internet, especially that which supports extremist/fringe world views.

Those that claim the most distrust of the media seem to forget that the internet is the media with no rules at all.

[Hair]

Washington Times is that not a trustworthy source? Seriously, I'm asking, I don't know, is it? Are they like the Enquirer or something?

Where are your articles informing that it was really only a neutral restroom etc.? Why is it that our side is the only side that has to present proof for everything we say?... and regardless of the proof it is scoffed at.

I'm not saying OGLER's article is for sure correct or not but it seems quite legitimate to me. Regardless of the accuracy of this one article, are you guys actually denying that any of this type of stuff is going on in our country??... and that we are hearing more and more of it daily and that it does and will continue to affect our church?? You just dismiss it all as made-up fallacies?

If so, then I think you guys really are wearing blindfolds.

I don't think its extremist fringe world views but "conservative" world views.

[Gregory Matthews]

As I also live in Colorado, I am probably a bit better informed on the issues than some of you. But, I am not going to argue over details.

In my opinion, this case, involving young children is very sad. Probably, adults who are limited in their information should not expound on this issue. It is simply sad.

To respond to a question, which I beleive was sincere: No. Transgender does not mean homosexual.

Yes, I have known homosexuals who were transgender. But, I have certainly known of many more transgenders who are not homosexual.

[Hair]

Thanks, Gregory, that was a sincere question I had... and I agree, it is sad.

Actually, an in-depth discussion of this article is sorta off the topic.

[debbym]

Quote:

To respond to a question, which I beleive was sincere: No. Transgender does not mean homosexual.

Yes, I have known homosexuals who were transgender. But, I have certainly known of many more transgenders who are not homosexual.

these issues have been with the human race for thousands of years, nothing that is happening with thes individuals is new under the sun.

In Japan there are six understood and accepted genders, ask the SDA Christians there how they relate as Christians within a multi-gender society.

it is true, gender identity is not the same issue as sexual orientation, gay or straight or bi sexual. This is just a first step in grasping the issues.

the nature of the attention it is getting, and the reactions of the families and the public is a more recent development.

Until you are involved in bringing Christ to an individual struggling in these areas and you lay down your human nature and take up Christ's nature, you will not likely understand that your natural reactions are not helpful to you, or to God's cause, or to those struggling.

God so loved the world that He gave His only son to die for gay and transgendered people, and obese, and addicted, and gambling, and criminal, and spiritually proud and arrogant people too. we are all on level ground before the cross.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

it is true, gender identity is not the same issue as sexual orientation, gay or straight or bi sexual. This is just a first step in grasping the issues.

Correct.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Actually, an in-depth discussion of this article is sorta off the topic.

Correct!

But that is the norm. All to often, when speaking on the issue of WO there are some who wish to take it in the direction of sexual orientation. I find susch concepts to be disrespectful of women, men and above all God. When will humans quit trying to speak for God? Do we really believe He is in control?

The more I read of peoples trying to take WO issues into the realm of sexual orientation makes me wonder as to what the real issue those indiviuals are having with women. Just wondering! I think there may more to this opposition than meats the eye. Ae we still seeing some vestiges of ancient views about women in general? Are we really seeing it as a continuation of Gods condemnation of women because of the whole apple episode? Really, God is that vindictive? Even though it is recorded that both sexes were created equal, not identical, women is not allowed to run anything spiritual? God created her with less abilities in the spiritual area? Adam is more spiritual because he didn't go the tree? His sin of disobedience was less than Eve's.

When people get exhausted trying to prove the Bible forbids women to be in charge, there is a gigantic push to make it sexual. Really? Really?

[Don777]

Yes, and what do you think of that part of their decision? Tell us if you see that as different from the conferences that decided to issue commissioned minster credentials to both men and women, also effectively suspending ordination of any pastors? Or of the male pastors who surrender their ordained minster credentials in solidarity with their female colleagues?

The decision to not ordain anyone until this gets resolved is a very respectful decision. The practice of commissioning both men and women rather than ordaining them, is unoffensive and can work as well. Male pastors surrendering their credentials puts the spotlight too much on the "secular politics" of this issue. If the granting of credentials has a spiritual value, what spiritual good does surrendering those credentials have? It is kind of like saying my credentials have no meaning unless women can have credentials too.

The important thing for a minister, male or female, is the call of the Spirit and the support of God's people.

[Neil D]

I'll provide a quick one, Deb on the driving concepts of ideological feminism and gender fluidity. There is much, much more I could share on this topic, but these are a few snippets. The things I am learning in my research are mind-boggling, to put it mildly.

[snip]

Of course, the pervasiveness of this theory explains why radical feminism must necessarily be joined to the homosexual agenda. Don't miss this. If gender is socially constructed (or gender roles are culturally conditioned even in the Bible), and therefore differences between men and women are nothing more than social convention, then heterosexuality becomes nothing more than a culturally-privileged form of sexuality.

I know to ponder this, is to take this off topic....but I've been pondering this post for a while....What madness has gotten Olger proclaim that this "radical feminism" and "homosexual agenda", THEY MUST be joined together....Why is there this insistence that feminism has actually joined/merged into the homosexual agenda? Well, before we can answer this, we need to understand just what feminism is, and what the homosexual agenda really is [There is one, isn't there? Olger said that there IS one, even though I haven't found it listed]...and how these concepts are to be redefining current culture [and "current culture" means...? ]....and then there is the distillation process of what Olger means when he talks about the feminism and homosexual agenda verse what YOU, the reader, understand of those two concepts...and to find out what the differences is/are and to find someone on C/A liberal enough to speak out in favor of these many concepts...[big sigh] and we haven't decided why Olger et al want to maintain that sense of order [TRADITION! of men as spiritual leaders] when logical biblical principles dictate a change in interpretation in favor of women's ordination...Did you get all that??? Can you maintain this discussion before the ramifications cause your head to put out the sign...."tilt"...?

And while I found ....evidence FOR...what Olger said [feminism and homosexual agenda should merge], I found that the causes from each group was motivated by something different..... Consider the following article written by a gay man for women and their need/capability to be leaders....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/17...n-s-Perspective

What is said about women can also be said about men...right?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

What is said about women can also be said about men...right?

Would sound logical.

So....does anyone know of a conference or church pushing to have a 'gay' male ordained! Has the .org ever considered that in the past or present? With the long history of ordaining men and no push for inclusion of homosexul males, then where in the world does anyone get the idea that ordaining women is the first step to ordaining homosexual women??

Talk about arguments without foundation or precident!!

[Neil D]

Washington Times is that not a trustworthy source? Seriously, I'm asking, I don't know, is it? Are they like the Enquirer or something?

Where are your articles informing that it was really only a neutral restroom etc.? Why is it that our side is the only side that has to present proof for everything we say?... and regardless of the proof it is scoffed at.

I'm not saying OGLER's article is for sure correct or not but it seems quite legitimate to me. Regardless of the accuracy of this one article, are you guys actually denying that any of this type of stuff is going on in our country??... and that we are hearing more and more of it daily and that it does and will continue to affect our church?? You just dismiss it all as made-up fallacies?

If so, then I think you guys really are wearing blindfolds.

I don't think its extremist fringe world views but "conservative" world views.

First off, other members and I have gone round and round on internet articles and their truthfulness....My suggestion is to get a couple of unbiased reports that are physically as close to the subject as possible when they are reporting ...IF they report the same things on the subject, chances are, there is some reliability on them but watch for discrepancies...I would question the Washington Post reporting on something as far away as Colorado as distance has a way of blurring the picture...Since CoAspen has volunteered his assessment on all the reports that he has had, I would also, at least, factor in his impressions...Most of the time, these pseudo-journalistic reporters[and they are on even the 'reliable' liberal and conservative news outlets] can leave out a major fact that influences the whole report.