Moderators lazarus Posted June 6, 2013 Moderators Share Posted June 6, 2013 even early settlement of this country was through violence started by christians...against heathens. Throughout the history of the USA and other western nations violence has been a key characteristic of their development. In 2013 violence is still the primary means of advancing its agenda abroad. The savage killing of that British soldier got the reaction it did because it wasn't sponsored by the state and it was visible. Unfortunately, invisible state sponsored violence is acceptable to most Christians. One is vilified and the other is glorified. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Well, CoAspen and Laz, there is not a single people group on earth that has never taken land and freedom from another people. Not one. ALL strive for dominance over the other, and it will continue this way until the day Christ comes back to reclaim His own. All the nobility talk does, is allow the not-so-noble time and opportunity to strike down the noble, to rule over them instead. Think the "White Man" with his "Christianity" was so evil taking America from the "noble" "Native" American? Think again. These "Natives" ALL fought among each other, since the first tribe emigrated here over the Bering Land Bridge thousands of years ago. Indians fought each other, stole lands from each other, sold each other into slavery when they could. Noble? Hardly. In heart, they were just like...the "White Man". Likewise the African tribes. They were as engaged in ethnic and tribal warfare as the "Native" Americans when the European "found" them, also. Who do you think is responsible for the slave trade out of Africa? "White Man" and his slave ships? Or was it the native African tribes themselves, who sold out their brethren to the Europeans and operated the very centers (as they were taught by their Muslim conquerors before) which filled those ships? Looking at Europe itself...the Dark and Middle Ages of feudal authority was no better than the tribal warfare going on everywhere else in the world. The Huns and the Mongols reminded Europe they were just as conquerable, just as capable of being dominated, as anyone else. Then there's the Roman Empire...the "civilized" Mediterranean, while most of the rest of Europe was yet tribal and warring among one another (just like the "Native Americans" 2,000 years ago). At the same time, the Orient was no better, with China, Korea, and Japan all broken into little factions, clans, and houses that were...warring, taking land and freedom from those they conquered. As man spread from the plains of Shinar, he took his pride over others, his war and his pseudo-religion with him. Mighty Nimrod was a hunter of people, slaying and conquering them - especially if they worshiped the True God. We must realize and understand all have done it - there is not a single innocent people group who hasn't. Villifying certain groups as evil today simply allows another people group to perpetuate this same process. The same process continues today - under the cloak of political causes and parties. It does not go without notice the chief offender of warring and conquering - particularly in the name of religion - gets the free pass today, because it is the so-called "religion of peace". It easy to point fingers at a current political whipping boy (right now, the US and Western Europe; more specifically, the "White Man"); it takes far more fortitude to remove one's self from the blame game and own up to one's own contribution to the mess. What is more, we must understand there is always going to be someone who thinks they have the right to dominate another through some sort of superiority. To remain "free", these must be defended against. Unfortunately, there are always enough people groups around just waiting for "their" opportunity to reign supreme, that people must be on their guard. It is a sad truth on this side of Christ's coming: those who refuse to guard their people's interest sufficiently, end up at the heel of another people group. Those ending up at someone's heel, await the day of their revenge. It does not matter if today's generation never participated in the sins of generations past - national, ethnic, and/or tribal vengeance must be fulfilled. Each cycle guarantees the next will occur - because people cannot forgive and move past wrongs of the past. Think that thought is far-fetched? Just looked at the interplay currently going on in America between the people groups there. Warring for dominance is still the name of the game, except it is now played in the media, and the political arena - but such cries for "social justice" are no less evil and barbaric in their deployment of actual policy than the original evils they cry against. Same evils as in generations past, just in the opposite direction. Decrying one evil, yet justifying the same in reverse as "justice" is but a hypocritical and intellectually disingenuous stance to take - no matter where in this world one wishes to apply it. I will be glad when Christ comes and finally establishes His kingdom. It will be the only time when different people groups cease this senseless warring and conquering of each other. Later, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Quote: Decrying one evil, yet justifying the same in reverse as "justice" is but a hypocritical and intellectually disingenuous stance to take - no matter where in this world one wishes to apply it. Could you claify as to what statements made you are responding too? Or was it just in general? Quote: Each cycle guarantees the next will occur - because people cannot forgive and move past wrongs of the past. Very true. Quote: Think the "White Man" with his "Christianity" was so evil taking America from the "noble" "Native" American? Think again. These "Natives" ALL fought among each other, since the first tribe emigrated here over the Bering Land Bridge thousands of years ago. The discussion is not about who is more evil. It was just pointing out that history show all doing violence in the name of a God, not just a paticular group. To throw in the term 'white man' takes it into the area of racism in my mind. I see the subject more about reliegious beliefs vs races, although religion can be be a cover for racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Quote: he discussion is not about who is more evil. It was just pointing out that history show all doing violence in the name of a God, not just a paticular group. To throw in the term 'white man' takes it into the area of racism in my mind. I see the subject more about reliegious beliefs vs races, although religion can be be a cover for racism. I don't know what rock you've been living under for the last few decades but the white man living in the US has been accused racism again and again for taking Indian lands. The Progressives make this argument again and again to show how evil the US has been for all of its existance. I've sat in college classes and listened to diatribes on this subject where the students have to agree its the truth or flunk out of the class. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 What ever floats your boat!! This topic is not about racism, but about radical religious practices. It is also trying to point out that history is rife with examples of religious beliefs leading to violence against others. No need to sidetrack it it with 'racism'. I don't believe that was Teds intention but it is an easy trap to fall into. Reckon you went to the wrong schools! Never heard that brought up in my day or my kids talking about such either. But Still....another topic...perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 7, 2013 Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2013 With all that, Ted, you have simply confirmed the point that we are not different from them, no matter who the we or them may be. Neither America nor Christians occupy the moral high ground any more than any other nation or religion when it comes to committing horrendous acts of violence against those not the same as themselves. That puts us in a rather poor vantage point to start throwing stones. That is the point. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 7, 2013 Moderators Share Posted June 7, 2013 With all that, Ted, you have simply confirmed the point that we are not different from them, Yes. It seems, Ted, that you've had a change of heart as regards to Muslim violence. Violence begets violence. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Quote: he discussion is not about who is more evil. It was just pointing out that history show all doing violence in the name of a God, not just a paticular group. To throw in the term 'white man' takes it into the area of racism in my mind. I see the subject more about reliegious beliefs vs races, although religion can be be a cover for racism. I don't know what rock you've been living under for the last few decades but the white man living in the US has been accused racism again and again for taking Indian lands. The Progressives make this argument again and again to show how evil the US has been for all of its existance. I've sat in college classes and listened to diatribes on this subject where the students have to agree its the truth or flunk out of the class. I know that's right! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Quote: Think the "White Man" with his "Christianity" was so evil taking America from the "noble" "Native" American? Think again. These "Natives" ALL fought among each other, since the first tribe emigrated here over the Bering Land Bridge thousands of years ago. The discussion is not about who is more evil. It was just pointing out that history show all doing violence in the name of a God, not just a paticular group. To throw in the term 'white man' takes it into the area of racism in my mind. I see the subject more about religious beliefs vs races, although religion can be be a cover for racism. Forgive me, CoAspen, but your words were more than just a little clear. Was it the Chinese who settled in the Northeast colonies, using Christianity as a club against the "heathen"? Mongols? Swahili? Australian Aborigines? And who were the "heathen"? Celtic Druids and Norsemen? The Picts? The Hmong? All I did was put in plain text what you and Laz did not - it was the "European White Man" and his "Christianity" committing violence against the "noble heathen" Native Indians. There were no other combatants in that arena, were there? For that to take it into the area of racism is a connection I didn't make - you made that one. All I did was say aloud WHO those combatants were. And yes, it only takes a few minutes to Google the subject to find the glorification and the vilification of each and every participant in the settling of the US. The settlement of the US was not a "religion only" thing at all. Much of what shaped the nation and the states was economic, political, and plain old distrust of the "other guy". What every participant did do was find a way to frame the conflict in terms of their religion. The whole point of my post was that EVERY people group on earth has done violence to another on the basis of their beliefs, that they have put their religions at the forefront of that conflict, and that it is the lack of forgiveness of what has been in the past which fuels conflicts of what currently is and will come to be in the days ahead. Don't just single out a couple of politically correct ones, refer to them in the third person oblique, and think you have it all sorted out. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Quote: he discussion is not about who is more evil. It was just pointing out that history show all doing violence in the name of a God, not just a paticular group. To throw in the term 'white man' takes it into the area of racism in my mind. I see the subject more about reliegious beliefs vs races, although religion can be be a cover for racism. I don't know what rock you've been living under for the last few decades but the white man living in the US has been accused racism again and again for taking Indian lands. The Progressives make this argument again and again to show how evil the US has been for all of its existence. I've sat in college classes and listened to diatribes on this subject where the students have to agree its the truth or flunk out of the class. "Progressives" do that with each and every area of the world the US becomes involved in - even to the point of condemning American culture simply because it became the elephant in the room after WWII. Everyone else is the poor victim, and America is evil for being the most powerful nation on earth. But wait! American is also believed by many to be a "Christian nation" during this time, so Christianity must also be the super-powered bully against all that is noble and reasonable... Yes, indeed, JoeB, that is the politically correct view of America and Christianity being promulgated by "those who know better than you or I"... Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I don't believe that was Teds intention but it is an easy trap to fall into. Reckon you went to the wrong schools! Never heard that brought up in my day or my kids talking about such either. But Still....another topic...perhaps. You're right, CoAspen, it was not my intention...but neither did I fall into any trap. As for the schooling issue...my children all go public schools, and yes, this is what is being taught. I have had to field a number of questions about how America is perceived in the current world and in history, as well as the same for Christianity in this nation. Most of these questions were negatives about America, European settlers, and role of religion they were taught in school, in which my kids were wondering if these were really true. But like you said - food for thought on another thread...no need to hijack this one. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 With all that, Ted, you have simply confirmed the point that we are not different from them, no matter who the we or them may be. Neither America nor Christians occupy the moral high ground any more than any other nation or religion when it comes to committing horrendous acts of violence against those not the same as themselves. That puts us in a rather poor vantage point to start throwing stones. That is the point. If that is your way of saying you have found your thread-winning post, okay, I'll say thanks. My caveat, though, is that it is not true Christianity which commits the acts of violence - but it does get the rap for any response Christians have against those attacking them, and even more so for those committing deceit, betrayal, and murder in the name of Christ. But yes, deep down inside, sinful man is sinful man, no matter what people group he may belong to. While our history leaves us with that poor vantage point to start throwing stones, man's history guarantees that people will be throwing stones at YOU, regardless. What do you do with that? Lie down in despair and defeatism dressed up as nobility? No, you're going to pick up the nearest stone...because that what man's heart tells you to do. It does not matter what the name of the god is for those who just heaved a stone into you...man's heart says vengeance and pride must be served. Dressing up some today as politically correct heroes only makes them sure candidates to be tomorrow's villains... Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Quote: Forgive me, CoAspen, but your words were more than just a little clear. Well Ted, your perception is still incorrect! I WAS NOT thinking of race, but of peoples using God/Gods to perpetuate violence against others. That was all. Period!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore With all that, Ted, you have simply confirmed the point that we are not different from them, Yes. It seems, Ted, that you've had a change of heart as regards to Muslim violence. Violence begets violence. You misinterpret that, Laz. Violence may beget violence, but Muslims have conducted violence against Christians from the very first meeting of Islam and Christianity. If what Tom says is true for Christendom today, how much less vantage does the Muslim have for its violence against every culture and people they have ever come in contact with? That is what the headline referred to in the OP screams, but the politically correct of today, totally miss. A cognitive dissonance on the "religion of peace"..... Blessings! Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Quote: Forgive me, CoAspen, but your words were more than just a little clear. Well Ted, your perception is still incorrect! I WAS NOT thinking of race, but of peoples using God/Gods to perpetuate violence against others. That was all. Period!! Oy! My brother, I am not attributing to you that you were thinking of race! All I was stating is that I called the participants out by the names they are known by today. I get your point! What I was referring to with your words being clear, was that there was only one people group settling America at the time of the colonies - the European White. And there was only one people group on the other side - the American Indian. I further stated they continued this dance has the US took shape as a nation. The European White used a twisted form of Christianity on their side; the American Indian used their Thunder and War gods and Great Spirit on their side. To this day, the Indian belief that their Great Spirit will come and destroy America, restoring the humbled Indian to his greatness in his participation, is not an isolated belief. The point you want to make...is still true today. We are circling the same bush, going around and around, making the same observations, but from different perspectives and words. Blessings and peace, my friend. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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