Junia-a female NT apostle

[Neil D]

http://www.memorymeaningfaith.org/blog/2013/04/junia-the-apostle.html

For some who insist that Junia is translated as a male....not so, according to Nancy Vyhmeister from Andrews University

[olger]

Nancy, being an ardent proponent of female headship, would be expected to take the position that she is on this.

Whether Junias or Junia is male or female - doesn't matter. The Bible is still clear that an elder or bishop is to be the "husband of one wife." Male headship is not optional, it is the Biblical model, and thus the only acceptable model to God. Lame excuses about Deborah, and almost every other woman in the Bible that the liberals eagerly seize upon does not reveal truth, it only reveals the desperation of their position. And well it might be desperate - fighting as they are against clear Bible patterns & instruction.

Now a prophet is the universal position that falls upon both male and female - although mostly male. That is clear too.

Rejoice always,

`G

[Tom Wetmore]

Rather than false and derogatory ad hominem snipes at the author, perhaps a substantive comment reflecting actual reading and comprehension of the linked article might have more credibility and be a constructive contribution to the topic. Can't help but surmise that the disrespect for the expertise and substantial qualification of the author ironically has as much to do with the fact she is a woman as the long-standing dispute that Paul identified Junia, a woman, as an apostle.

[Neil D]

Nancy, being an ardent proponent of female headship, would be expected to take the position that she is on this.

`G

How do you know that she is "an ardent proponent of female headship,"? I've looked her up on the internet and Amazon and can't find anything over this subject of "headship".....found one book, a DYI of how to write "quality research papers" for theology and religion....No offence, but she sounds like a person who likes details in research, not an ardent proponent of female headship....

[olger]

Oh I know, Neil.

I got connections.

[olger]

Rather than false and derogatory ad hominem snipes at the author, perhaps a substantive comment reflecting actual reading and comprehension of the linked article might have more credibility and be a constructive comtribution to the topic. Can't help but surmise that the disrespect for the expertise and substantial qualification of the author ironically has as much to do with the fact she is a woman as the long-standing dispute that Paul identified Junia, a woman, as an apostle.

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, Tom.

[Tom Wetmore]

You do have an uncanny ability of missing the point...

[debbym]

Quote:

Now a prophet is the universal position that falls upon both male and female - although mostly male. That is clear too.

the prophets who are in the bible, are not the only prophets there were.

we have no idea how many female prophets there have been.

[Neil D]

Oh I know, Neil.

I got connections.

No you don't.....

You are just saying that because you can't refute the evidence.....

This is troll behavior

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: olger

Oh I know, Neil.

I got connections.

No you don't.....

You are just saying that because you can't refute the evidence.....

This is troll behavior

Is it fair to be honest

[Johann]

We do have some peculiar scholars at Andrews University. When I attended back in 1952-1956 I recall Horace Shaw making quite an issue of not only the eloquence in the preaching of Johannes Chrysostom, but also of his interpretation of Scripture. Chrysostom was a church leader in the East with headquarters in Constantinople at the end of the 4th Century and the beginning of the 5th Century.

Our scholars back then pointed out the cleavage between the East and West as paganism infiltrated earlier in Rome and the Western church than in the East where the Christians held longer to the teachings of the Apostles, including the Sabbath observance and the equality of male and female church leaders as we see so clearly in the New Testament. This male headship fairytale was never heard of in Seventh-day Adventist circles 50-60 years ago. That came together with a golden medal by the pope in later years.

Since then the pagan-papal notions have infiltrated the Seventh-day Adventist church in greater measure. How else will the Vatican manage to get the whole world to bow their knees to the Babylonian final union? That is why so many seemingly honest and conservative members of our church have gone in that direction today.

Back in my college days we did read books like The Great Controversy, and we believed its message then like we also do today. The trouble is that today you have to prove that you are a true Adventist by adhering much closer to Rome, and we who still hold on to the values of Adventism are labeled liberals.

Just notice the ire it creates in some of these people who claim to be conservative when they see the discovery of Nancy Vyhmeister that Johannes Crysostom states in his Commentary on the writings of Paul that Junia was a woman and a church leader.

No wonder Jesus warned us that the first shall be among the last when Adventism is being turned upside down even on a forum dedicated to enhancing the values of true faith.

[joeb]

What does the article prove? Would Paul have recognized Ellen White in his day as an apostle because of her mission? Most likely. I don't really see what this "proves". Does God use both men and women? Yes. That's undeniable. Again. What does that prove when it comes to leadership positions? Was Paul a deacon or elder in any particular church? I don't think I've ever seen anything on that from one side or the other. Was Ellen White a deacon or elder in any particular church? Again, what does her situation "prove" one way or the other?

I think this entire controversy is much ado about nothing.

[Johann]

Possibly. So why all of this opposition against women serving in the church?

[Neil D]

I think this entire controversy is much ado about nothing.

So then you agree that women should be ordained pastors with all the rights and privileges that come with that office....

You would have a woman Conference leader, perhaps even a woman who would replace Wilson as leader of the SDA church?

If you do, that's great....but many, such as Olger have expressed a different opinion, and without support, I might add...Some people have even gone so far as to document questionable contrary evidence and misrepresenting the bible and being true to translations....

IOWs, some of your translations are not honest translations or the evidence is not clear as to the whys things are translated the way they are....and honest theologies are formed upon faulty evidence...

[olger]

I think we should ordain women.

As mothers.

More to come Jeeves,

`oG

[Neil D]

I think we should ordain women.

As mothers.

More to come Jeeves,

`oG

Ah, our own SDA version of a...male person.... who comes to us with promises and innuendos and personal bias....Ladies, would you like to limit your life to just being a home maker? How about baby maker, and just an educator of your children...?

Ladies, wouldn't you like to be an Business/artist/craft maker? How about a CEO of a financial institution? Or perhaps a nurse? A scientist? School teacher? Doctor? Or any other job worthy of your desire and talents?

NOw, I understand that circumstances do not allow for ideal roles in a sin laden world....And I am NOT saying that motherhood is not a worthy ideal. Heaven knows, we need good parents in our home...But wouldn't you like to choose what you can become instead of being limited to just "an ordained mother"? Wouldn't you like to get paid for a job instead of having to rely on your husband's paycheck? IOWs, wouldn't you like to be more than just an "ordained Mother"?

Sometimes I wonder about SDA men, especially whose conservative attitudes of women include women being submissive to male authority, especially in Church...If a woman decides that his authority is not sufficient, how does she need to be brought into line...? with beatings? Verbal abuse? How about quotations from the Pastor/Elders from the bible? These scenarios are the implications of "ordained mothers".... and are reality in our current world where SDA men dominate [or try to] women....So much for the concept of "ordained motherhood"....

Now, I know I am going slightly off the topic of Junia, the female Apostle....but I am soo tired of Olger's unsupported allegations, innuendos, and implied accusations. It is tiresome and detracts from the topic of Junia....I would love to be able to remove his non-topic posts that draw attention to himself rather than focus on pro/con arguments on Junia....

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

I think this entire controversy is much ado about nothing.

So then you agree that women should be ordained pastors with all the rights and privileges that come with that office....

You would have a woman Conference leader, perhaps even a woman who would replace Wilson as leader of the SDA church?

If you do, that's great....but many, such as Olger have expressed a different opinion, and without support, I might add...Some people have even gone so far as to document questionable contrary evidence and misrepresenting the bible and being true to translations....

IOWs, some of your translations are not honest translations or the evidence is not clear as to the whys things are translated the way they are....and honest theologies are formed upon faulty evidence...

I'm just saying this entire thing is a tempest in a teapot created by the devil to divide the church over what should be a non-issue. I think it's politically driven and motivated by people who think church and world politics should be the answer to everything that pops up.

The real problem is that we, as a people, are not living according to God's will for us, which is the entire surrender of each of us to His will. If we were none of this would be an issue, for male and female wouldn't be an issue, as neither would black nor white nor hispanic nor asian, as we would all be one in Christ. We would all be surrendering our lives to Him and all of us would be happy with wherever we find ourselves.

The reason everyone wants to fight over it is because we don't trust God to take care of things.

Isn't that what the Bible teaches us?

[Neil D]

I'm just saying this entire thing is a tempest in a teapot created by the devil to divide the church over what should be a non-issue. I think it's politically driven and motivated by people who think church and world politics should be the answer to everything that pops up.

The real problem is that we, as a people, are not living according to God's will for us, which is the entire surrender of each of us to His will. If we were none of this would be an issue, for male and female wouldn't be an issue, as neither would black nor white nor hispanic nor asian, as we would all be one in Christ. We would all be surrendering our lives to Him and all of us would be happy with wherever we find ourselves.

The reason everyone wants to fight over it is because we don't trust God to take care of things.

Isn't that what the Bible teaches us?

While I would point out that this is an 'Off Topic' subject [it's about Junia, not us nor rules], I would also point out that if we were honest enough, we would speak to the subject matter, and not post innuendo, nor assertions without factual references to back up our assertions...

Olger has a history of doing this thru out the board. And in some forums, it is harmless and amusing...But in this one, where tensions run high, it is not...He knows this and still does this behavior...Some of us, who know that is characteristic of internet troll behavior, have tried to point this out....but to know avail...The only way to combat this is to be either blunt or ignore him entirely...or complain to the moderators...

Now, about this all being "one in Christ"...This assertion is not practical...

Given the history of the church, and the theologians of the times, many felt that men were the only people for the job of pastor. Some felt threaten and insisted on inaccurate [if not faulty] research to maintain maleness of the Pastorate.

Samuel Bacchiochi, when he was here, used to advance a theory of men having the authority over women and promoted headship...But when pointed out other viewpoints, he stubbornly refused to look at an alternatives that logically eroded his viewpoint from the new research....People grow...if people grow, then we need to be tender where we need to be tender and [to borrow an analogy of growing tomatoes] cut off the suckers when this type of growth is not needed...

The point here is that while being "one in Christ" is all nice and sweet, it does not take into account of emotional and years of study.....

Now, back to the subject at hand...Junia, the NT female "outstanding" apostle...

[Tom Wetmore]

I think we should ordain women.

As mothers.

More to come Jeeves,

`oG

And how about ordaining men as fathers?

Or are you speaking of ordaining them as in the OT as a Mother in Israel?

[joeb]

Quote:

While I would point out that this is an 'Off Topic' subject [it's about Junia, not us nor rules], I would also point out that if we were honest enough, we would speak to the subject matter, and not post innuendo, nor assertions without factual references to back up our assertions...

So what the Bible actually says about how each of us is to live is irrelevant to the situation? It's irrelevant to the situation that all of us let our egos get in the way? It's irrelevant that the Bible says that race and gender are irrelevant to the followers of Christ? ****shakes head in wonder****

[Johann]

Our greatest problem is that we live in a society where even some of the thinking of the greatest "saints" among us are so hued with the "miasma of speculative philosophy's most cryptic language" and we read both the writings of Ellen White and the Bible that way. Thus we have no idea what Revelation is all about.

For that we need the Holy Spirit.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I think this entire controversy is much ado about nothing.

I'm somewhat of the same opinion, especially when God has said He will honor those who honor Him and Paul was more or less speaking of men being in the forefront largely as a result of the culture at that time and place having less of an inclination to listen to the female of the species.

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus."Galatians 3:27-29 ASV

God cares!

[joeb]

Our greatest problem is that we live in a society where even some of the thinking of the greatest "saints" among us are so hued with the "miasma of speculative philosophy's most cryptic language" and we read both the writings of Ellen White and the Bible that way. Thus we have no idea what Revelation is all about.

For that we need the Holy Spirit.

We're told, Johann, to be in the world, not of the world. In each command is the promise of fulfillment. Society is no excuse for us. We have God on our side.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

Our greatest problem is that we live in a society where even some of the thinking of the greatest "saints" among us are so hued with the "miasma of speculative philosophy's most cryptic language" and we read both the writings of Ellen White and the Bible that way. Thus we have no idea what Revelation is all about.

For that we need the Holy Spirit.

We're told, Johann, to be in the world, not of the world. In each command is the promise of fulfillment. Society is no excuse for us. We have God on our side.

I am sure your intention was good, but I fail to see in which way your remark is connected to the statement I made

[Johann]

Samuel Bacchiochi, when he was here, used to advance a theory of men having the authority over women and promoted headship...But when pointed out other viewpoints, he stubbornly refused to look at an alternatives that logically eroded his viewpoint from the new research....People grow...if people grow, then we need to be tender where we need to be tender and [to borrow an analogy of growing tomatoes] cut off the suckers when this type of growth is not needed...

The point here is that while being "one in Christ" is all nice and sweet, it does not take into account of emotional and years of study.....

Now, back to the subject at hand...Junia, the NT female "outstanding" apostle...

True, we never heard of this male headship until Samuelle Bacchiocchi. Now it is presented as an old understanding,